"Miniature Wargaming - Why does it bring you enjoyment?" Topic

ROTFPML @ RMD's post:)). Excellent!

HH, never said we took delight in it. Was probably more out of necessity. When you have 10 kids in your lifetime and 5 of them are eaten by saber tooth cats. What are you going to do ? There's always tensions between different species and a lack of understanding or inability to get along in perfect harmony. Ask that guy who spent his life working with tigers until he gotten eaten by one.

BD how can I ask the guy he been eaten……..

Easy – just ask him a second before his head disappears down the tiger's throat. I'm sure he won't be too distracted by events to let his views on the harmony between humans and tigers be known.

Arteis….lol before or after reminding him he still owes his mate £20.00 GBP

HH, he might say, "Ya, know I probably shouldn't have punched that tiger in the nose."

For the record, I don't call them military miniatures… just miniatures or my favorite "15 millimeter miniatures". I definitely think of them as pieces, not toys.

I now use "toy soldiers". Them that don't understand are not worth worrying about and those that do, don't care. I enjoy it but is it an affliction? When sombody said last week "How about that airfield raid not done it for a while". That OK. But when "for a while" seems to be 13 years and it took an hour serching several crates of fold flat buildings/vehicals (yes 13 years ago I built SiFi vehicals that fold flat, but not many) to find the terrain you do start to worry a bit ;-). But hey is fun and better than telly in the UK at the moment.

I call them toy soldiers, as for me, I played with toy soldiers as a child, and just never grew out of it. As adults, we use painted figures instead of unpainted surgical plastics, and rules instead of marbles, but its still playing with toy soldiers in a more intelectual way … :) I reckon.

BD do you display your figures?

In photos I have. Otherwise, they spend most their time in the tin barracks I have for them.

R Mark davies

Wow! You really are hurting, aren't you? Internet hardman? What planet are you on? It is a discussion forum where people agree or disagree with what people post, eg: I disagree with people calling them Toy Soldiers – get it?.

And sorry to disappoint you, but I've been in the army, have a relative who served in Afgan and a daughter who might being doing a tour there. None of the above aided or put me off wargaming.

If you read the posts again, perhaps a little slower in your case, you will see that I have no objections if people want to refer to their miniatures as Toy Soldiers. But as far as I'm concerned, I played with toy soldiers as a child and I now play with Military Miniatures as an adult. But that's my choice. I'm not saying it is right or wrong to call them toy soldiers. There are plenty who do, especially non-wargamers.

And talking of non-wargamers – those who have viewed my Military Miniatures no longer considered them as toys, as they did previously, especially when they saw the research, painting and rules etc.

I could be equally rude about you but you are not worth the effort. But just for you I have not written Toy Soldiers in capital letters. You sound stressed enough as it is. I suggest you go for a long run, take a cold shower or play a wargame. I'm sure you will feel better for it.

Have a nice day now

Peeler

Why do you paint them? Why do you research uniforms, battles and campaigns? Why do you have rules? Why do all that, if they're only toys?

It is, of course, still playing games, whatever you want to call them. And that is the real connection with toys.

Hmmm, it must have been someone else who wrote this using your login then:

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"Interesting post and one I would agree with, except, in another thread you don't see it as wargaming but as men playing with TOY SOLDIERS! In fact you make sure you think of them as TOY SOLDIERS because you repeat the phrase in another post! So the question is – do you really wargame or do you play with toy soldiers? And this is relevant to the original post because your post either relates to wargaming or playing with TOY SOLDIERS?"
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Heh, you really don't like it when people are sarcastic and rude back at you, do you? Some seriously deep-seated insecurity there, I feel. It must be awful to be so lonely and insecure with your masculinity that you feel the need to mock others' language and efforts. Was Mummy's Little Soldier teased a lot as a child? But it's ok, we feel your pain. We're here for you (well, those few who haven't stifled you, anyway). Tell us your feelings.

Hilarious!

In one post this:
"I'm not saying it is right or wrong to call them toy soldiers."

In the next post:
"Why do you paint them? Why do you research uniforms, battles and campaigns? Why do you have rules? Why do all that, if they're only toys?"

How to contradict yourself in one easy lesson.

When I hear the word "toys" its like someone is saying "It doesn't matter what happens to them, they're only toys." When an adult male uses the word toys for his fun things, its like he's saying, "I don't care what happens to it, I can afford another one." Toys are things that people don't care if they get trashed or not.

Now what if someone were to say to you, "So, Johnny, ya gonna go play with your Army Men today?" :)

I think I'd get ed and say, "It's a game, NOT army men DUMB -SS"

R Mark Davies

Wow you really are a very sad person or getting bullied! Why throw so much abuse out when you think you have been ever so clever and tried to catch me out? You've given yourself away.

But as far as I'm concerned, you can be as rude and sarcastic as you like, since that is what you seem to prefer to do and are constantly looking for excuses to do so. If it makes you feel better I won't stand in your way.

But the whole point of my posts, and you know it really, is that I don't see them as toy soldiers and I won't call them toy soldiers. Others do and I was really surprised and wanted to know why, considering the amount of research, painting, rule making that goes into playing wargames. But that is their choice and I have my choice.

I can accept they call them toy soldiers, although I disagree with the term, so really, you need to move on and try to write something interesting. I know it will be hard, especially without abusing someone, but I am sure you can do it if you really try.

Colinjallen

What is wrong with you? Have you caught the Mark Davies bug? Which bit can't you understand?

I'm not saying it is wrong to call them toy soldiers. I'm saying I don't see them as toy soldiers and prefer to use the term Military Miniatures. You seem unable to understand what people write. Very sad.

You also seem to be having a problem accepting that I disagree with people who call them toy soldiers. I think you need to accept it and move on. Have a nice day, if you can!

Bottom Dollar

Good post. But I suppose it does not really matter what people call them, although I prefer to see them as Military Miniatures. But that is my choice and the term they use is there choice.

I was suprised by those who prefer the term toy soldiers and considering some of the abuse thrown at me recently, I did wonder if I might have hit a nerve? Perhaps people like Mark Davies and Colinjallen really do want to play with toys, and Military Miniatures are the nearest they can get to them without being embarrassed. It is just a thought.

Lol John,

You just do not get it, do you? You say one thing:

"I'm not saying it is right or wrong to call them toy soldiers."

and then say this:

"Why do you paint them? Why do you research uniforms, battles and campaigns? Why do you have rules? Why do all that, if they're only toys?"

and you also earlier said this:

"And this is relevant to the original post because your post either relates to wargaming or playing with TOY SOLDIERS?"

Do you not see the contradiction?

As for insults and abuse, you seem to be the one who loves to throw them around, but perhaps you do not see that either;).

Enjoy your games with your "military miniatures";).

As I said earlier. You don't like it when others dish it out, do you?

after some years of buying/painting/playing i still ask myself the same cuestion…

PD: my wife too

Gaz, I paint, research & use rules because I prefer to play with my toys properly. And I wouldn't use the word "only" when referring to my wargames toys – they are far too important to prephrase with "only". :)

My toys resent it when I call them miniatures, and my miniature figures really get ed when I call them toys!

Here's another question….

if you had say a 2 day weekend game scheduled and someone at work, say a new boss or someone serious like that, asked you about what you were doing over the weekend what would you say ?

Would it be:

"Well, Bill, glad you asked. I'm gonna play with my toys this weekend."

Or

"We're refighting Waterloo this weekend…. yes, that's right. We're using 15mm military miniatures. Your welcome to stop by and take a look."

:)

Maybe like most things on TMP this is a British and American thing as most of the toy soldier players seem to be Brits and most of the miniatures and military simulationists seem to be American (or least it seems that way from what I can see of people's country on their profile – apols to any from either in the other camp – or no camp at all)

I'd still have to disagree that using the word toy implies things that people don't care if they get trashed or not. As said before big boys toys is an expression widely used here about Harleys, WW2 vehicles etc – all things that their owners definitely do care about. And I'm just looking at Toy Soldier Collector (UK mag wbut with a lot of US content too) which has pictures of beautiful 54 mm figures by Pegaso, Andrea Miniatures and people like King & Country etc (as well as more traditional old school Britains type toy soldiers- all well reseaerched and presumably since they put the ads in, the manufactueres don't mind the association to the word Toy.

I have to say too that it wass Gazzola who started the whole thing off by pulling up ColinAllen re comments on another thread using rather frankly a rather provocative tone for a discussion on what we enjoy out of playing with toy soldiers/military miniatures
"So the question is – do you really wargame or do you play with toy soldiers? And this is relevant to the original post because your post either relates to wargaming or playing with TOY SOLDIERS?"
"The question is" – what is this – a court of law?

Or

"We're refighting Waterloo this weekend…. yes, that's right. We're using 15mm military miniatures. Your welcome to stop by and take a look."

:)
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to which he'd say "oh – i'll get back to you" – think "this guy plays with toy soldiers" and decide not to invite you to his boys night out on Saturday where the only connection to Waterloo would be that one of the fun party of Swedish students the guys met up with looked a bit like that girl off Abba

Though I'd have to say though that so far from anyone indulging in the the "i hope I never see you across a table" line (which would unlikely since separated not just on views on figures but by an ocean), we'd have the ideal set up to create a realistic atmosphere for a a game of a friendly battle like Cowpens or Waxhaw!

You guys are still on the "enjoyment" part, right?

GNREP8,

I suspect that John (Gazzola) thinks that he has the right to demand answers to his, quite frankly, daft and impertinent questions.

His obsession with aggressively and rudely challenging people who are happy to say that they wargame with toy soldiers is quite bizarre and almost disturbing, especially when he then claims that he has no problem with people saying that they use toy soldiers. His posts belie the truth of that claim.

:) I'd say that I'm doing a wargame this weekend. He'd say "toy soldiers" I'd say, "yip" … :)

My new boss (he is new, not me) did ask me that question recently. I told him that I was wargaming on the Friday night and putting on a game at a wargames show on the Sunday, as well as doing things with my partner. In reply, he told me that he was airsofting on the Sunday.

We decided that we are both big kids and that was a good way to be. As a result, I am going airsofting with him one weekend soon and he is coming to the wargames club with me.

His only downside is that he is a lifelong Gooner:(.

You guys are still on the "enjoyment" part, right?
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as with churches and football teams, everyone loves a good schism!

Peeler

Play with my toys properly? Ask yourself what you mean by that? There is no such a thing as playing with toys properly, other than not throwing them at your friends – you just play with them. That's what toys are for. My Military Miniatures are for playing with but have to look a certain way and move a certain way to a certain distance, based on rules and research.

But like I keep saying, that's my choice. I don't see myself superior or inferior to those who call them toys soldiers. Happy playing anyway.

colinjallen

My posts refer to the fact that wargamers take a lot of time, research and effort into turning their blank 'toys' into militiary miniatures and then create a lot of rules that they have to play by, based on historical research. That, in my opinion, moves them one step away from being considered as toys.

I've not said it is wrong to use the term, but only that I disagree with it. The fact that it upsets you is very sad. And the original post was asking why do we enjoy playing Miniature Wargaming, not why do we enjoy playing with toys! But I guess you enjoy playing with toys and still can't seem to stop throwing your Teddy out of the pram for the slightest reason. I suggest you grow up and become a wargamer.

R Mark davies

Others have offered worse abuse, under the pretence it is connected to the discussion. You get used to such clowns.

Bottom Dollar

Very good posts and to the point.

Thanks, Gaz.

To follow an earlier observation, I'm sure a good part of this spate has to do with cultural differences in word usage and I'm speaking from the American cultural perspective. But if a new boss asked me, I'd tell him I had wargaming plans… the assumption being game PIECES of course.

My gosh, he really is both obsessed and utterly lacking in self-awareness, as well as being obnoxious.

Yeah, and you'll probably be able to tell him that ftf this weekend :)

colinjallen

Yes, I have been accused of being obssessive – obssesive in the amount of research I do, buying more books, buying more military miniatures.

But you must find an awful lot of people being obnoxious – can't be anything to do with little old you and your sad attitude, could it, no, of course not.

I suggest you stop playing Ludo by yourself and cheering when you win and get into wargaming. I assure you it is great fun. Do have a nice day.

(No offence to Ludo fans – great game)

Colin – us Gooners are in third place now. Just don't remind me of this statement when we finish the season in 5th ok :-)

I do think I see John's point though, in that he says he does not mind them being called toys by others, but he questions why those others would want to call them toys, after all the research etc. So he has, I think, a valid point. The internet can "obscure" what would probably be a reasonably easy pub discussion sometimes.

But I will nail my colours to the mast again, that I play with toy soldiers. But I also play football with the kids, I play xBox (when they let me) etc etc. So I don't have an issue with "playing". On Friday nights, I have "games night with the lads" when I am playing with friends.

I do seem to recall that our Colonial Cousins coined teh term miniatures to distinguish themselves from wargamers, who played on boards *whereas us clever, but bankrupt, UK gamers new playing on a board made one a "boardgamer". But then they use spackle for filling holes, whereas we use filler. Strange how our languages have drifted.

But key to my enjoyment is the colour, the spectacle and the fun of gaming (or playing if one prefers). I never think of it as a simulation – only a game, but no less fun for that.

And now looking forward to Salute, where I will look at lots of lovingly painted toy soldiers on make-believe table top terrains, and have a great day.

John,

Once again, I note that you resort to what you seem to regard as insults; poor you. You also seem to really love making assumptions about what other people think.

Marc,

I have no problem with what people call their toys; they can call them whatever they choose to. What I object to, and will always stand up against, is anyone who behaves obnoxiously towards others and attempts to bully and insult them, regardless of that being online or otherwise. John is attempting to cyber-bully anyone who dares to disagree with him and that is unacceptable.

Salute should be good; unfortunately, I will be behind the Bring and Buy all day again so I will not get much chance to look at pretty toys and beautiful terrain:(.

I suspect the Gooners will hang on to 3rd; as long as Chavski do not qualify for the CL, I do not care who comes where, as long as I get to go to a second Wembley final this year (and hopefully see us win another trophy).

T0 look at this thread ,should the title be why do you enjoy net threads on why you enjoy wargames threads. To me is entertainment whether serious simulation or more light hearted. I realy dont care what you call it. Frankley any hobby from slot cars to watching Football and gambeling is not rational looked at it one way or another. On that basis nobody has the right to take the Mick (UK term) out of anybodey else. The question is entirely "why" you enjoy it not "what" you call it:-) "A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet".

colinjallen

I have only given my opinion and stated why. I have not bullied anyone, and you know it. What a feeble excuse! I think the problem is that you seem to see someone daring to disagree with your views (or even that of others) as bullying, rather than just someone disagreeing with whatever views were being aired. Other posters seem to understand that – a shame you don't!

I also suggest you look at your own posts and the somewhat disgraceful and insulting terms you have employed in your sad attempts to try and win, what is basically a non-argument. It is just people giving their points of views. Get over it!

And to insult and throw abuse after trying to make out you are some kind of internet hero out to protect other wargamers is quite ludicrous and basically extremely hypocritical! And if you throw enough insults and abuse, guess what, some people are going to throw it right back at you.

Some of my posts are tongue in cheek, and most people can see that. But enough is enough and I think you should have a good think on where you are going with your insults and more importantly, why?

The posts are not acts of war or platforms for spouting hatred against someone because you just don't happen to like what they say. You should learn from others and just agree to disagree – it is as easy as that.

Happy wargaming anyway.

And in other news:

Black IS White.

Let me remind you how you de-railed this thread. Colin said

"I love research, I love making models, I love painting, I love the sight of beautifully painted, well sculpted figures and models on glorious terrain.

I enjoy spending time with like-minded, well-educated, intelligent friends playing a wargame in a friendly but competitive environment over a day or a weekend."

Your reply:

"colinjallen

Interesting post and one I would agree with, except, in another thread you don't see it as wargaming but as men playing with TOY SOLDIERS! In fact you make sure you think of them as TOY SOLDIERS because you repeat the phrase in another post! So the question is – do you really wargame or do you play with toy soldiers? And this is relevant to the original post because your post either relates to wargaming or playing with TOY SOLDIERS? The second image in KiethRK's post springs to mind."

I think people here can see where the abuse, bullying and insults are coming from on this thread, mate.

I'm sure in real life, you're absolutely lovely, kind to children and play with kittens. But on here, you simply come across as a sad, insecure, angry, insulting, bullying twunt.

R Mark davies

That was the whole point of my post, you clown – to ask why he changed his description and called them well scuplted figures and models instead of toy soldiers? Get it now?

So do give it a rest, eh! Let it go man, move on. There are more important things in the world.

By the way, kittens, nah, puppies yeah, spot on.

You guys are aware that there's a Stifle button, right?

A Special Loathing for Cherubs

Yes, but I'd rather agree to disagree than stifle.

I don't attend this site expecting everyone to agree or disagree with everything I say. That's part of the enjoyment of this site, hearing other people's opinions and views.

I am, of course, talking about those making genuine posts, not the clowns who like playing mind games and obviously have nothing better to do and might not even wargame.

The original post has certainly made everyone think about wargaming and why they might enjoy it. And thankfully, we don't all think the same, apart from enjoying wargaming.