"Miniature Wargaming - Why does it bring you enjoyment?" Topic

Bottom Dollar,

No, where on earth did you get that from?

It's fun.

Colinjalen, painters, sculptors, song writers, or any creative artist generally doesn't think they are creating "toys" or doing "child's play". Creating and painting miniature armies is art work. Where there is aesthetic and intellectual beauty as you agreed, there is no "child's play" or "toys". People who call things like guns and expensive cars "toys" are thinking too luxuriously IMHO. I agree with you though that I wouldn't call a miniature war game "simulation" and some people often take the "gaming" part too seriously… like the few that feel cheating is necessary :)

Bottom Dollar,

You are making an argument that is almost nonsensical. Sculpting and painting may indeed be forms of art, but they are forms that, in the case of wargames figures, produce toys for us to play with.

Toys can be both aesthetically and intellectually beautiful in themselves; they are still toys.

The inability or unwillingness to admit that we play with toys says quite a lot about either an insecurity about our hobby or the self-perception of some wargamers.

I don't think painting miniatures or creating armies is fun. It's too much work and too much money to be considered fun. Though it can be very satisfying. Gaming is fun. Shooting a gun off is fun. Driving a fast car is fun. But in none of the cases are people playing with toys.

BD, and the relevance of that to our little men being toys is what precisely?

Colinjalen, what I am saying is people spend a lot of leisure time and money collecting, painting, reading, studying, gaming, etc.. etc.. military history for it to be considered "child's play" or "toys". If you wish to call it "playing with toys" that is your prerogative. I take military history seriously and when I spend countless hours and a lot of money painting and creating 15mm historical miniatures… I don't call them "toys". When I can actually play a game, that is fun but I'm not playing with toys… and if I were to use some of the miniatures that I've seen people show around here… I'd call it playing with works of art. Again, you have a right to call them "toys", but I call that luxurious, decadent thinking.

Man.. seems Collinjallen is getting lynched here. Whether he calls it toy soldiers or miniatures or recycled fire hydrants, why give a sh..? I call my figures miniatures, figures, toy soldeers, etc etc. Shaking my head at how nonsensical and petty some of this gets. Collinjean, just go have fun.

If I decide to 'play' Talavera with my collection, guess what? I'm PLAYING. My toys, figures, miniatures are set up on somthing vaguely simulating Badajoz, but I don't kid myself… its not. Its hardly a simulation. Just a game with my figues/toys/miniatures/recycled fire hydrants with the rules/guides/charts I chose to facillitate my pretty cool GAME. Lord, give me strength.

But in none of the cases are people playing with toys.

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up to the individual of course but I play with toy soldiers . I btw don't see the problem in being childish or childlike – all the real damage in thw world is done by adults – most of the serious people are work with are miserable so and sos who think that life revolves around work.

BD,
So, because you put a lot of effort into them, they are not toys. That is a very strange argument. Regardless of the effort and the beauty, they are toys.

As for your comment on my view being luxurious, decadent thinking, I will not even grace that with a rebuttal as it is staggering in its irrelevance.

Again, you have a right to call them "toys", but I call that luxurious, decadent thinking.

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Now you see up that point one could just say its a different pov but then you introduce a value judgement like 'decadent' (whatver that's meant to mean – its decadent to spend thousands of the family's money if they are toys – but not if they are miniature works of art?)
If you want to say that, equally some of those playing toy soldiers might say that the reverse pov is pretentious (I wouldn't of course) – please don't btw think that just because we call them toys, doesn't mean that we don't take military history seriously.

I really don't see the problem – men in their 50's acquiring Harleys etc or an old jeep or whatever – its big boys toys. Whats the problem with spending one's money and time on toys – btw be assured of course that whatever we think, the rest of society most assuredly knows we are playing with toy soldiers – notwithstanding the article by the silly billy in WI a few months ago claiming that he was scientifically researching/simulating military history (must check if that was in the edition covering April 1st).

Yes, we are PLAYING games and having FUN, but we are not playing with "toys". Playing with toys is not fun anymore. It stopped being fun when I was about 12.

colinjallen, do you paint your own miniatures ? If so, how many have you painted ? Also, if you play a board game such as Advanced Squad Leader or even Monopoly are you playing with toys or are you playing a game?

I really think the insecurity lies in the reverse.

BD,
Yes, I paint my own figures; I have probably painted a few thousand over the years. Your comment on insecurity baffled me; insecurity would be indicated by having (or needing) to deny that we play with toys (because it is childish?) and claim that they are military miniatures or works of art or whatever. What is insecure about stating that we play with toys?

Please note that I did not say that boardgames were toys, so that is irrelevant.

They are intended for adults and is why they are not sold as toys but military/wargames miniatures/figures or similar, and often have warning that they are not toys, or are unsuitable for children, on their packaging.

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i can point you to many website selling adult toys so the terms are not mutually exclusive in the slightest!

I think internal to the hobby and for family and close friends we may call them "toys", but for an external audience that doesn't quite understand why we do it, calling them that kind of reduces the effort we put into it. It's more than buying a bag of plastic army men at the toy store and throwing nerf balls at them, but if we start the conversation with people calling them toys, that's the impression we're going to leave.

At least, that's what I think…

And when I say it lies in the reverse, by that I mean when a person takes something seriously, but then they don't think they are right in taking seriously they call it playing with "toys", so as to demonstrate that they really don't take it seriously.

They ain't "toys" in my book. Neither are expensive cars or guns even though they can be FUN :)

firstvarty, I agree entirely and very funny post.

Don't understand the insecurity comment – are those of us who say toys insecure as adults? I have no desire to go back to school, wear shorts etc (thats going down another route altogether!) Personally as said I don't see so much wrong in being childlike in some things anyway – being adult and serious is vastly over-rated

"Please note that I did not say that boardgames were toys, so that is irrelevant."

colinjalin, not quite irrelevant. Miniature wargames are board games, but they are board games with fancy 3 dimensional pieces. Often times these pieces are so finely crafted they can be considered works of art in and of themselves.

GNPEP8, those who call miniature war gaming "playing with toys" don't think they should take it seriously even though they do. Whether that's insecurity, I'll leave for you to decide.

It's more than buying a bag of plastic army men at the toy store and throwing nerf balls at them, but if we start the conversation with people calling them toys, that's the impression we're going to leave.

At least, that's what I think…
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whatver we may say, the people I work with who spend all their money on football, beer or under dressed women (in many cases all 3 – all of course adult pursuits) see it as playing with toy soldiers

GNPEP8, those who call miniature war gaming "playing with toys" don't think they should take it seriously even though they do. Whether that's insecurity, I'll leave for you to decide.

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I take some things seriously – family, church – other things like work and hobbies – not really in that sense

BD,
"GNPEP8, those who call miniature war gaming "playing with toys" don't think they should take it seriously even though they do. Whether that's insecurity, I'll leave for you to decide."

Now there you are making an assumption. Do I take wargaming seriously? Well, that depends on what you mean by seriously. Wargaming is a hobby and an entertainment and I treat it as such. However, I take the research and the striving for accuracy in painting and modeling seriously. However, like GNREP8, I take other things more seriously as they actually matter more.

By definition, wargames with little soldiers on three dimensional terrain are not boardgames.

colinjalen, though they are games with 3 dimensional pieces correct? Table top games. If I convert my miniatures to cardboard counters I could still play the game as a board game.

See. Painting and modeling is painting and modeling, not playing with toy soldiers. I play games with miniature figures, not toys, though i could easily swap them out for cardboard counters, but that wouldn't be as much FUN now would it ?

Hey! I just realized our hobby isn't wargaming/toysoldiers/military miniatures. It's posting on web-forums! The toys/games/miniatures are just a vehicle for that!

@ Gazzola,

Gazzola asked,

"John Tyson

Are they toy guns or real guns?????"

John Tyson answers,

Real guns that shoot real bullets. Every one of them!!!!! I kill steel bad guys with them. See those bad guy in the picture below? That's me sending them to Perdition!

Here's a video!
link

God bless,
John

spontoon, we are participating in our hobby or leisure time activity here :)

I love when people external to the hobby look down on me for spending 4 hours straight studying a game system or exercising artistic skill painting, but when I sit in front of a television for 4 hours straight watching trash and doing very little thinking whatsoever, that is somehow "acceptable behavior".

There's an old saying over here on the Yankee side of the pond:

"The difference between men and boys, is the price of their toys."

;-)

God bless,
John

… and how seriously they take them. When I was a boy I often trashed my toys and didn't really know how to take care of them. Now I take my toys seriously :)

BD
I love when people external to the hobby look down on me for spending 4 hours straight studying a game system or exercising artistic skill painting, but when I sit in front of a television for 4 hours straight watching trash and doing very little thinking whatsoever, that is somehow "acceptable behavior".
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absolutely agree with you – i work with people who spend thousands on football (soccer) or beer or cigarettes – but its a mark of our society that probably attending an Adult Video News show (as took place and received basically this is all adult fun positive coverage in the local press that the next week complains about the over sexualisation of society) is "normal" and yet going to a wargames show is "weird", "geeky" and any other loaded pejorative terms one can think of.

GNREP, moreover, they think war gaming is a "waste of time" ! Honestly, in my experience it is mainly women who don't get it, BUT NOT ALL WOMEN. Many women seem to look on it as being "unproductive" or "anti-social". I've almost never heard a non-wargaming male look down upon war gaming as a hobby. Men seem to understand why men play war games or games in general.

I once dated a girl who took chess seriously. She was very level headed and down-to-earth. I should've stuck with her :)

BD, I once dated a girl who was a perfect 38"x24"x36"!
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----- and her other leg was exactly the same!

;-)

Oh! And here in the South we know a girl is level headed if the chewin' tobaccy drips down both sides of her mouth!

BD,

You posted: "colinjalen, though they are games with 3 dimensional pieces correct? Table top games. If I convert my miniatures to cardboard counters I could still play the game as a board game.

See. Painting and modeling is painting and modeling, not playing with toy soldiers. I play games with miniature figures, not toys, though i could easily swap them out for cardboard counters, but that wouldn't be as much FUN now would it ?"

If you convert your miniatures to cardboard counters (How do you do this? Do you mean that you replace them with cardboard counters as converting plastic or metal figures to cardboard counters might require a bit of alchemy) and play on a wargames table with three dimensional scenery, you are not playing a boardgame, you are playing a tabletop wargame with cardboard counters.

Painting and modelling are indeed painting and modelling; I am pleased that you realised that;). However, our painting and modelling activities produce toys for us to play our games with.

John Tyson,
That reminds me of one of the drummer jokes:).

BD
I've almost never heard a non-wargaming male look down upon war gaming as a hobby. Men seem to understand why men play war games or games in general.
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I think thats more a Men are from Mars, Women are from
Venus thing in that many women do not 'get' hobbies in the first place whatever they are – be it Harleys, collecting football programs or wargaming. And, at the risk of a further horrendous stereotype, generally women are not interested in military topics etc in the first place – I doubt for instance there are many voluntary female visitors to somewhere like the British Royal Armoured Corps Tank Museum at Bovington

I still think that some men (if not quite a lot) would look at what we do as on a par with train spotting – as said, working in a fairly macho ish kind of job, the traditional high status hobbies for a man would be viewed as football, booze and birds (even for those married)

Can you believe it? I wade through all three pages of this thread and, due to some tear in the the space-time continuum, I find myself back in the "If you had a Time Machine how would you alter Waterloo" thread (that I had, thankfully, left over two hours ago- or so I thought).
Does anyone find it ironic that people are arguing about such nonsense when the op wants to know why this hobby brings us enjoyment?
I call my little guys toy soldiers, I also call them miniatures, and sometimes I call them little guys, but what does it matter? When my 10th Hussars fought off an attack from my 5 year old daughter΄s dinosaurs, were we playing with toys or miniatures, or perhaps both? Who cares? It was not a typical engagement for the lads, but they fought well and only half of them were eaten, and a good time was had by all. And really, that is all that matters.

John Tyson

Great video. But I suppose, being dressed up as a cowboy is not being a real cowboy and since you are not shooting at real opponents who can shoot back, it could be considered as boys playing with their toys. Mind you, your toys look great fun and I bet the guns and costumes are as authentic as you can get?

To all

If people want to see themselves as playing with TOY SOLDIERS instead of MILITARY MINIATURES, that's fine by me.
I prefer to see them as Military Miniatures and when I was a child I certainly did not research the history, uniforms and actions to the length I go now when I played with toys.

On the plus side for those who prefer to see them as toy soldiers, it will prevent any insults from now-wargamers who accuse them of playing with toy soldiers having any affect!

So I say, fellow 'elitist' wargamers who play with Military Miniatures should unite with those who play with toy soldiers against the dull non-wargamers who don't have a clue why any of us like wargaming. We have a common interest and a common foe – so here's to everyone enjoying playing with whatever they want to call what they play with.

I meant to add that I think KiethRK's post – 14th, 9.35, showing the images of what people think about wargaming, is about the best ever post I've seen on the topic. Pictures speak a thousand words and all that.

Gazzola,

Glad you enjoyed the video and yes, we try to be authentic while still having a shooting competition with firearms of the late 1800s. But alas, I'm not a real cowboy. I once was a real soldier though. And, oh yes, when I'm playing cowboy, I'm certainly happy I'm not shooting at real opponents who can shoot back. That'd take all the enjoyment out of it. Just as playing a miniature wargame with "toy" or "military miniature" (reader's choice) soldiers is not real war. For if it were real war, that'd take all the enjoyment out of it.
Don't you think? :-)

God bless,
John

Texas Jack, if you allowed your 10th Hussars to get eaten by dinosaurs, you've got toys not military miniatures ! :)

I dread dropping my military miniatures by accident. I've done it about 4 time now. Two times with a command stand. I lucked out all four times. Nothing broke.

John Tyson

As you say, with our hobby, pastime or passion, we are 'playing', not doing the real thing, which, again as you say would certainly take the fun out of it. I prefer the term Military Miniatures others prefer Toy Soldiers or even little guys, but at least no one gets hurt when we play, whichever term is employed, unless you come across a really bad loser.

The silly reaction of some of those who insist they play with toy soldiers makes me inclined to think that they probably do.

The inability or unwillingness to admit that we play with toys says quite a lot about either an insecurity about our hobby or the self-perception of some wargamers.

Well, they are toys, but I think 'playing with toys' is simply a misnomer. I have a beautifully painted set of chess pieces:

They are toys, no doubt about it. However, when I play with them, I don't say I am playing with toys, I say I am playing chess.

To characterize playing chess as playing with toys because the pieces are toys misses the whole point, regardless of how 'true' it is. And the 'playing with toy soldiers' implies a childishness that isn't implied when the owner of a '63 Corvette says he is playing with his toy.

The same applies to my miniature toys. I play wargames with toy soldiers. They are the markers for the game. I think folks are more sensitive to the implied childishness of the activity rather than the miniatures are toys. Wargame rules are something else entirely. Hardly five year olds playing with army men. That doesn't make wargames any more serious, but it does make them very different in content and play.

Bill H.

Unless one is one of these oddballs who insist they are conducting military simulations…

Do you mean folks like Bill Gray, Bob Jones, John Hill, Arty Conliffe, Dave Brown, etc. etc. etc.? Or are they even odder for claiming their designs allow folks to conduct military simulations?

Bill H.

I am not sure about the others but I have never heard Dave Brown claim that his design allows people to conduct military simulations.

-- sigh --

I deleted my post because I realised after I had posted it, that it would only fuel the absurd debate on calling Military Miniatures toy soldiers or not. It doesn't really matter what you call them just as you enjoy playing with them. Life's too short. Have fun everyone.

Maybe there was an absurd debate on calling toy soldiers "military miniatures" ;).

And to throw some gasoline on already blazing fire:

Definition of TOY

1 : obsolete a : flirtatious or seductive behavior b : pastime; also : a sportive or amusing act : antic
2a : something (as a preoccupation) that is paltry or trifling b : a literary or musical trifle or diversion c : trinket, bauble
3: something for a child to play with
4: something diminutive; especially : a diminutive animal (as of a small breed or variety)
5: something that can be toyed with