"Miniature Wargaming - Why does it bring you enjoyment?" Topic

Once Caveat. When I meant "things go right" I did not mean that things went right in a game. I mean't that when you painted a unit or built an army or created a piece of terrain, a rulebook, or a scenario, it went "right" in that you got what you set out for- more or less. Compared to life where you can work for hours, days, weeks on a project only to have it discarded or frustrated by others or forces out of your control, or where the work is ignored, it's quite different. Likewise, where you do this whole project and then someone else decides that's all well and good and accurate, but it's not what they want to hear and you have to toss it all.

Going right means that you can actually finish what you started out to do and get a sense of accomplishment from it.

As for World War Two-- it's not THAT World War Two we are modelling. We are modelling the 'ideal" world war two but the idealized one. The one where we get all those neato toys and the Waffen SS aren't REALLY as bad as they were, or at least we don't emphasize the "Sonderaktion" teams, and the KGB is not a factor for the Soviets, and we have the neato uniforms, and the really neat songs and music, and somehow we all really would like to be part of "The Greatest Generation" and so forth.

For me I do that in my WWII stuff because I game with imaginations. The Krauts are Fahrvergnuggen, ruled over by Alois Huxter and his Nozi's and the Soviet Union is The Workers Winter Wonderland of Freeland (WWWF) ruled by Emilio Grandofrato, and everything is played in a Marxian (Groucho not Karl) tone. There are 10 other imaginations as well and all of them the same way.

It's an era you wouldn't mind being "Mirandized" in-- as it would be Carmen Miranda.

the spouse image

- Wargaming Alchemy.

turning base paper into purest lead

(and a bit of plastic these days too)

What I do: turn lumps of unpainted lead (or plastic) into victorious troops! (sometimes)

Thanks for the poster Keith!

The casual atmosphere of the hobby- you never hear "you're not wearing THAT to Historicon are you?"
Gaming is never having to say -I need a shower.
I wonder if there will be girls there?
Does this SS T-shirt make me look fat?
That Tam looks good – on you.
No- it is NOTHING like RISK.
Do you have more than one dice bag?
Fantasy- The "F" word.

This was an amusing thread. I'm currently in Iraq. A year supporting the Army, now Dept of State. With the exception of brief R&R visits back to Texas, I get zero gaming. But I get on TMP daily, and still get magazines and books sent over or picked up when home. The gaming has been a big source of escape, fun and learning. While here, I keep adding to my list of goodies to buy when I finally bail out of here.

@John Tyson. 1968-89. Welcome home brother.

When I was in Afghanistan I set up a game of Command and Colour-Napoleonics in my digs.
I'd play a couple of moves 'solo' when not "out'n'about" and played a scenario over the time I was there. It was a nice distraction for me,…
I also had a mate of mine send me copies of Wargames Illustrated which was great.
Even in a war I found wargaming an escape.
;o)

Like with writing, I enjoy the research a great deal. Creating the gaming scenario and the table top is also a great challenge. I solo game a lot which is why when a few of muy friends over or I can get to a convention I thoroughly enjoy the comeraderie and the companionship.

Gaming provides a great escape.

I'm not sure 'Model Railroading' has the fullblend of historical research, modelling, collecting _and game design/challenge that historical wargaming has.

I think that's a pretty unique blend (and I doubt it would have held my attention for 40 years without it)

Phil

I just enjoy the fact that my downstairs neighbour is kept awake by the endless sound of marching feet.

It has been fun to read all the responses. Haven't read one I can relate to. There are a lot of things to enjoy with our hobby. Several comments made me think of what I read in Philip Sabin's new book Simulating War. He references a poll taken some time ago that asked how many board wargamers play solo. The answer was over 50%.

I was wondering if the same numbers of miniature wargamers play solo. I can see our hobby being much more of a social enterprise, but there have been a number of folks who say they play solo.

If that's the case, unlike board games, I can't think of many miniature rules that have provided specific mechanisms for solo gaming.

Bill

Perhaps we should all try and persuade schools to bring in wargaming.

You can have the interactivity of art and history, and dexterity of handling the miniatures and the maths of calculating losses etc.

Fantasy wargaming can include creativity and imagination.

Both wargaming types can be connected to books, historical and fiction.

The economical aspects if schools made their own miniatures.

Just imagine going to a school that held wargaming lessons. Could it lead to higher qualifications in the subject? A degree? (Sorry, got carried away a bit there!)

Hey, if you can do basket weaving and surfing at Uni, (not to mention all the 'mind expanding' drugs), why not a degree in 'Military Simulation' or 'Recreational Warfare'?
;o)

When I used wargaming in my high school classes I showed the students how to use math to determine rate of marching, ground scale, artillery and small arms ranges and how linear tactics required a good eye for distance.

Since I retired those games are gone in my old school. "Playing with toy soldiers" and history, in general, are not as important as propagandizing the students in the "correct" way to think about government and to interpret history.

Military history is frowned upon in place of social history, modern history with no reference to what preceded it. Political correctness is more important than accuracy. It's very sad.

Our kids grow up without heroes, without an understanding of the prices paid for the freedoms which their forefathers bought with their blood.

If it is not government assessed, the subject is not important. Tests matter more than how to use the knowledge. Sorry for the rant and for getting off topic.

Terrific. I did it again…dropped the negative. This should read:

It has been fun to read all the responses. Haven't read one I can't relate to.

Bill

Painting is a necessary chore, as opposed to part of the joy. If I was loaded & could pay others to do i, I would. sculpting, conversion & scratchbuilding of scenics however I do enjoy.

Dear John Michael Priest

Couldn't agree more. This is a completely dead end for gaming, and was thirty years ago when I and our club made a big stab at it. Now it's worse. Back then we found out that the teachers occasionally welcomed us because it was a day they didn't have to do anything, and we became the attention of the kids ridicule and not them. Today, everything you point out is true.

Besides have we REALLY gotten so old that we forget that the only subject young teenage boys in school are interested in is blue-jeans biology?

Getting back to the point of the thread though-- I never believed as many have, in the theory that there is a big huge yearning, burning, hole in the soul that could only be filled by wargames and that if people only KNEW about it, they would join by the stadium load. Miniatures is a small, tiny niche of a niche of a fragment of a tiny slice and finds receptivity only among those individuals with certain physiological and psychological predispositions and traits.

One physiological trait I suspect is that the individual on whom the hobby fastens has the trait of seing lines and forms in paralell or multiple repetiion as triggering a favorable response. The lines of soldiers in ranks, each soldier the same as the other. Another physiological is the concatenation of patterns and colors. One psychological trait might be a tendency to boredom unless the hands are occupied which leads us to painting and model building, or a form of OCD (Obsessive Creative Disorder)-- the Geek gene. The rest can be intellectual factors such as world view and the basic assumptions of what is the one, the true, the beautiful.

I do not know and have no firm data on any of these besides hunches and occasional insights. (For example how few units are made up of men in radically different poses or postures). But again, I do not know, but am firm in my belief that only a blending of certain traits and assumptions causes a person to desire to be in miniature gaming.

As such the inculcation of gamers and the prozeltyzing of the hobby is almost completely out of our hands.

;-) OSchmidt --

I think he just unleashed some kind psychological warfare on us. Now my head hurts. ;-)

Couldn't agree more. This is a completely dead end for gaming, and was thirty years ago when I and our club made a big stab at it. Now it's worse. Back then we found out that the teachers occasionally welcomed us because it was a day they didn't have to do anything, and we became the attention of the kids ridicule and not them. Today, everything you point out is true.

Besides have we REALLY gotten so old that we forget that the only subject young teenage boys in school are interested in is blue-jeans biology?

OSchmidt and JMP:

I think you are selling both wargames and teenage boys short, let alone teachers. [Or perhaps overstating the ability of Teenage boys to actively respond to bluejean biology and overgeneralizing the reasons why teachers might invite wargamers into the classroom.]

There are a number of schools I have visited that have wargame clubs. Simulations and teaching games of all stripes have actually increased over the years because of the unique, active learning qualities they offer.

Bill H.

Dear McLaddie

Clubs are not classrooms, and OVERSTATING!!!!???? hardly! It's pretty much the only thing they think about.

Let me tell you about an incident at a Historicon. My ersatz grand daughter at the time (about four years ago) was a really hot young babe of 17, blue hair, blonde eyes, perfect model body dressed to show it off. We were playing a game and three young 18 year old somethings were playing in the game. It soon became patently obvious to the most casual observer that they simply were not paying attention to the game, but paying attention to her. She could do whatever she wanted. She could have shoveled up their units and tossed them into the trash can and they would not have noticed or card, so long as she kept walking around the table in her tight shorts and low cut top, that was fine for them. It was amazing. She could have pulled out their wallets, taken all their cash and credit cards, stolen their car keys and the fillings from their teeth if she wanted. Talk about the old "Bug-Eyed Monsters from Outer Space: They want our women" and when the monsters go lust-crazed! I saw it.

Years ago when I was taking riding lessons, I was talking to my instructor and I mentioned something about riding a stallion. He said in a tone of utter disgust that if it werent for the necessity of studs he'd castrate all of them. He said "The only way to get a Stallion to do what you want is to smack him on the head with a 2x4.

I've seriously thought of adding a 2x4 to my awak kit for conventions.

Selling the average high school kid short???

NAAAAHHHH!!!!

I've got an ersatz grand-son too and the only way to get anything out of him is to whack him in the side of the head with a 2 x 4 and it doesn't matter if there's a hot looking babe around or not.

It's why the army employs such socio-pathic creatures as drill sergeants.

As for history!!!!?? Here is the historical sensibility of 95% of the kids in the classroom.

God created the world in six days.
On the seventh day he rested.
On the eighth day Elvis died.
On the ningh day "I" was born.
History-- is now at an end. I am the fulfillment of history.

Sorry-- did teaching, ran into students.

Otto

.

Otto

My apologies for being down. The kids I had in class generally loved the gaming as did the occasional administator who dropped by and several of my colleagues. I worked in a school where all that mattered were test scores and classes which had to go through the state mandated High School Assessments.

For instance, as a rule, department chairs, new teachers, governemnt, English, science and Math teachers and most of the Advanced Placement teachers got their own rooms. History, veteran teachers of non-tested subjects had to "float" from room to room on a cart.

I taught an Honors U.S. Civil War class which the school generally used as a dumping ground for students with schedule conflicts and behavioral problems. "Honors" had nothing to do with ability.

As a history teacher I had to tolerate being told that I could teach conclusions without facts. I love history and some of my kids did too. The gaming worked in the classroom but was very hard to do because of having to pick the game up and shelve it at the end of each class.

I spent a lot of time teaching military history with social history as well but we were not to use films, we had specific topics we had to teach whether they were accurate or not.

To give you an idea of what it was like. We were in class when 9/11 occurred, watching those poor souls falls to their deaths when my supervisor dropped in unannounced and told me not to spend too much time on what was happening because we would get behind schedule on our scope and sequence.

It's not that there are not excellent teachers out there and that there are not exemplary students. In some schools they are very hard to find.

I think that wargamers occupy a special niche and are a unique group of individuals.

I tried starting a wargame club but I was not allowed to use the word "wargame" in it. I had to call it something like Historical Gaming Simulations.

I think that gaming is not for everyone, just like education is not. I think that schools within districts and counties can be as different as the proverbial "night and day."

I am a nerd in the right niche who has been fortunate enough to be involved with HMGS East where I have met like minded gamers of every age.

Lots of great reasons posted here, I agree with most all of them. I seem to learn something every time I play with friends at home or with strangers at Cons.
Miniatures have always attracted my attention. I cant believe I was twenty four years old before I discovered that you could play with them! (in my defense, I grew up in a very small town.) Good Grief, when I was a kid, I coulda been throwing dice with my army men instead of throwing dirt clods at them!
It's also the esthetics. Some people walked into my apartment one day and saw my table. "Oh model trains, what fun!… Wait, where's the choo choo?"

You are so right. I find it interesting to watch how gamers use the tactics to change the course of what did happen. The conversations are great. I get a lot of very good ideas on how to refine the game to facilitate better play. Every now and then I have a chance to explain the historical backdrop behind the rules or the event.

I thoroughly enjoy it when parents take the time to game with their kids.

You are so right. I find it interesting to watch how gamers use the tactics to change the course of what did happen. The conversations are great. I get a lot of very good ideas on how to refine the game to facilitate better play. Every now and then I have a chance to explain the historical backdrop behind the rules or the event.

I thoroughly enjoy it when parents take the time to game with their kids.

OSchmidt:

Hmmm. Well, having been a high school teacher [Social Sciences] and coach [football] for many years, ages ago 1980's, either the teenage boy has changed dramatically, or I am thinking more of 14-16 year old nerds who'd rather game… Those hormones really hit about 16 for many boys…

Of course, teenagers are taught history for a reason, mostly because they don't have any…

Bill H.

"One physiological trait I suspect"

I recall as a small boy fixating on certain clothing/armour styles (Greek stuff was kewl, for example) & drawing endless pictures of mass armies shooting each other.

We were having a discussion at church about porn addiction, lots of men present confessed the problem, I suggested becoming a military history anorak as I was far too busy surfing for C19th French uniform button arrangements to look for perverse material,even though i like boobies.

John Michael Priest:

Sad, but too true. And I have worked with over 600 schools in fifteen states in my time.

Bill H.

So, back to my question:

Do folks here feel that a good portion of miniature wargamers play solo as was found to be the case with board gamers?

Bill H.

I don't play solo, I just solo to learn a system and/or enjoy a system when their are no like-minded opponents around or in my immediate neighborhood like 5 to 10 minutes away by car which is pretty much all the time.

If there's a problem in the schools, I'm willing to bet good money there's some liberal assed judge who mandated it. Only playing… sort of… but only to make the point that I think the kids/students are all pretty good actually. It's the system that sucks and does them a disservice most of the time.

I solo to playtest rules and to se if I can make sure the right side wins. You'll never guess who wins the War Between the States.

Well JMP, if Abraham Lincoln hadn't been shot, it would be a tough guess.

Now I await my next assignment to the "Dawghouse".

It quiets the voices in my head.

I love research, I love making models, I love painting, I love the sight of beautifully painted, well sculpted figures and models on glorious terrain.

I enjoy spending time with like-minded, well-educated, intelligent friends playing a wargame in a friendly but competitive environment over a day or a weekend.

colinjallen

Interesting post and one I would agree with, except, in another thread you don't see it as wargaming but as men playing with TOY SOLDIERS! In fact you make sure you think of them as TOY SOLDIERS because you repeat the phrase in another post! So the question is – do you really wargame or do you play with toy soldiers? And this is relevant to the original post because your post either relates to wargaming or playing with TOY SOLDIERS? The second image in KiethRK's post springs to mind.

Gazzola,
Wargaming IS playing with toy soldiers (or whatever toys we choose to use); why get your panties in a bunch over it? :)

We play a game that uses toy soldiers, ergo we are playing with toy soldiers.

Gazzola, rarely do my wargaming opponents die. However, they tend to argue less with I come dressed the way you see me in the photo below (one of my other hobbies is Cowboy Action Shooting where instead of playing with toy soldiers I get to dress up like a cowboy and shoot real guns with real bullets at steel bad guys).

colinjallen

If you like playing with TOY SOLDIERS, no problem. That's your choice. I prefer to play with Military miniatures that represent various historical regiments that existed. One of your posts suggested that you did research etc – what for? No need for that if you play with TOY SOLDIERS, is there. But I don't have a problem with you or anyone else calling them TOY SOLDIERS, if that's how you see them. As long as they keep you happy. It is all just a bit of fun and no harm or insults intended. Enjoy playing with whatever you play with.

John Tyson

Are they toy guns or real guns?????

Gazzola,

Yes, I research into uniforms, tactics, organisations, weapon performance etc, in order to make my games more "realistic" (whatever that means), but I am still playing with toy soldiers. You may have a need to call them military miniatures, and that is your prerogative if it helps you.

Toys are intended for children to play with. Most wargames figures and paraphernalia would never pass safety standards for sale as childrens' toys.

They are either made of material that is unsuitable for children or have small parts that are similarly unsuitable.

They are intended for adults and is why they are not sold as toys but military/wargames miniatures/figures or similar, and often have warning that they are not toys, or are unsuitable for children, on their packaging.

Toys are Leggo and Playmobile.

Confused.

I have lots of toy soldiers of regiments that exist/existed. And wargames with out toy soldiers arent quite the same. Cardboard counters arnt the same.

This has the whiff of snobbery and elitism about it. Soon it won't be war gaming it will Historical Military Simulation. Which would be less fun. No toys you see. Just ers that never got to be a real soldier thinking they are Murat incarnate.

They are pieces, not toys, IMHO. When you play chess, you don't play with toys, you play a game with pieces. Look at traditional cultures. In just about all of them you will find men playing all types of games against each other out in the street. They are gaming, not playing with toys. I play wargames because they are challenging and fun and competitive. When I go to a bar I like to play pool and throw darts for much the same reason, and I don't think I'm playing with toys.

If you think you are playing with "toys" then you diminish what you are actually doing, IMHO. Anyone from outside the hobby who thinks we are playing with "toys" can go shove it if you ask me :)

One of the other reasons I really like war gaming is there is there can be beauty at many different levels. With miniatures and table tops there can be real aesthetic three dimensional beauty. With good systems there is real intellectual beauty. As example, SL/ASL. Anyone who has put the effort in to seriously play SL/ASL knows what I am talking about.

The Art of War.

a toy soldier is a plastic or metal figure that people play with. I'm not ashamed of it. If you are you need to get over yourself and shout loudly to the world "I play with toy soldiers" most of em won't care as they will be kicking their toy around a pitch.

I play with toy soldiers. I play my PS3, another toy, I play football too though the ball is some one else's. It's their toy. Some men have very expenive toys. Others have dangerous even lethal toys that aren't ment for children. I like my toys.

Beer is not a toy. Its liquid art.

Rubbish. I collect toy soldiers. They are not the same thing as wargames figures. They are also worth a lot more

Wow! There is some real insecurity around here; people clinging to their safety blankets of "military miniatures" or "pieces" rather than being confident enough to admit that they play with toy soldiers.

I also do airsoft skirmishing because my two boys (aged 9 and 11) love it; that is also playing with toys.

We can always find ways of rationalising that what we are doing is a "simulation" or is something more than playing with toy soldiers; however, that is just avoidance of reality.

Bottom Dollar, I completely agree with your point about aesthetic and intellectual beauty.

XV,

It seems that you are unable to see beyond the nomenclature; both wargames figures and the items sold as "toy soldiers" are toys.

So, collecting anything is collecting toys ? Like if a person collected historical artifacts like weapons they are collecting toys ? Or art work … toys ?