"UFOs" Topic

To be fair, we've only had two crashes: Siberia 1908 and New Mexico 1947. That's a pretty awesome flying record, if you ask me. :D

In an infinite universe, the probability that life appeared a lot of times and more than once evolved to intelligence is high enough to provide a quasi-certitude. Besides, only a crazy combination of hubris and narcissism would suggest that we are *unique* in the whole universe.

Even if a good proportion of stars has planets, with a fair percentage supporting the apparition of life (I guess that water has to be liquid, which corresponds to a rather narrow window of temperatures) and 'intelligence' appearing relatively often (our own 'success' shows that 'intelligence' is adaptive)… the likelihood of extra-solar visitors is infinitely low.
Not only a question of distance (precluding any chance of visit unless FTL travel is used) but of *density*. If (weird numbers!) a star out of 100 has planets, such a system out of 100 has a planet suitable for life and then 'intelligence' appeared once out of ten: a single star system out of 100,000 'holds' intelligence. Of course planets, and even those able to support life can be spotted at a distance. But 'intelligence'? Our electro-magnetic emissions are some 100 years old, and I'm sure (if too lazy to check) that the average distance between 'intelligence holding' systems is far superior. Besides, are they powerful enough to be perceptible at 100 LY or above? They energy is many levels of magnitude inferior to a star's emissions. Thus, to meet another 'intelligence', one has to visit 100 stars (selected from 100,000) [OK, not 100 since the likelihood that it will be the 1st visited is = that it will be the last, but that's the idea].
Then return to the distances involved…

That's why I read decades ago a suggestion that, if UFO are indeed artifacts and not from the surface of Earth, their origin cannot be Extra-Terrestrial but only *Intra*-Terrestrial: an Agartha-like underground culture, such as Atlantis successors in some Pelllucidar-like location….

<Q> there is reason to believe that Metalinor craft have gone beyond anti-matter technology and are now propelled by some form of Funkadelic energy.

I'd favor orgone en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone: F u c k adelic energy, if you prefer.

Very good point. But heres JAMES BROWN!
YouTube link
Who ever saw Wilhelm Reich on Soultrain?

What about the Kecksburg and Aztec crashes. Will no one take responsibility for them?

Kecksburg may have been a Russkie device falling out of orbit early or malfunctioning, but that is still up for debate. Aztec ? And regardless, I'm not the only one saying this, a lot of guys "light years" smarter and wiser then me, have stated with all the stars out in the universe, it is a statistical improbability/impossibility that many, many other life forms DON'T exist out there … So if you just "run the numbers" ETs exist … whether they have or are visiting our "3rd Rock from the Sun" … ah … maybe ??????

Kecksburg is one of the fairly many famous UFO cases where information is so corrupted and evidence so spotty that it's extremely if not impossibly difficult to determine what happened and indeed even how big a deal it was back in the day.

The Aztec case is pretty much closed and cannot be laid at the door of aliens from Zeta Reticuli (or wherever):
nmsr.org/aztec.htm

Interesting … thanks for the intel … It's stories like that that makes muddies the waters even further …

As the originator of this post, I would request that responders identify their intention. For example, if you are posting in the tongue-in-cheek spirit with which the post was originated, please prefix your post with the acronym TIC.

If you are posting with the intent of really and truly debunking or proving the existence of UFOs, please prefix your entry with NBS for "No BS".

This will help prevent NBS posters from misinterpreting TIC posters and vise-verse. For the record, I am prefixing all of my posts to date, including the first one as TIC.

Thanks,

Mick

NBS

As Abdul666lw said, the odds are greatly against humanity being the only intelligent life in the universe.

The odds are also greatly against any intelligent life having visited us.

Put me down for "we are not alone in the universe, but we haven't had any visitors yet, either."

=====================================================
TIC: of course there are no UFOs. Someone in government knows what they are, so they are not "Unidentified Flying Objects."

Every time someone asks about UFO's meaning unidentified extra-terrestrial alien craft, the government can honestly say "Nope, don't exist."

"Two words, Mr. President. 'Plausible. Deniability.' "

Now, if you asked them about the craft belonging to the Saurians, or the Greys, or the Atlanteans… Then they'd actually have to lie to you. [evil grin]

TIC
If TIC is the opposite of NBS, and thus *is* BS, I argue vocally against treating Lt Ellis of 'BS'

Doctor Helena Russell,on the other hand…

Anyone ever read through the contents of this site?

nuforc.org

I haven't read that particular site but I've read a fair number of similar ones, judging by a quick peruse. What conclusions should I draw from them in your opinion? I ask this in the spirit of NBS.

The simple fact that UFO sightings didn't take off until after mankind learned to fly is a big red flag in my book. Sure, people can look back in histroy and really stretch to say that heiroglyph looks like a spaceship, or this smudge on a Leoonardo looks like a grey alien. But honestly, we should have a fully living oral history of UFOs and aliens if they visit us this much. 10th century peasants should have been anally probed by the bushels. 19th century visionaries should have been looking to UFO accounts as inspiration for their next flying machine. It should be a huge part of our collective narative, but without retrofitting by true believers, it simply isn't. You can claim the Bible talks about UFOs, or the Aztecs drew them, but you are just projecting your hopes onto it. We should seriously have millions of accounts of flying objects over our written history. Even if earlier people didn't think they were from another planet, a big flying metal saucer would be worth noting for them. They would be so commonplace as to be given a name. They would be even more noticable in a world before airplanes.

Now, it is possible that aliens Only started visiting us After we learned to fly ourselves. But in the thousands of years we have existed and passed on stories, and the billions of years the universe has existed, that coincidence is even more unlikely.

The above should be read as NBS. The fact that we would have to state whether we are joking or being serious is the truest testament to how nutty UFO theories are. :D

NBS: given the evidence and general background knowledge, UFO appear to be the modern equivalent of medieval Fées. With the same inspiring potential for writers, movie-makers and illustrators.

NSB: Indeed back in the day fairies used to commit many of the acts associated (in a more technological-age-friendly form) with the occupants of UFOs. And fairies of the past weren't conceived as cute little tinkerbells, like some people seem to actually believe.

That said, cue a reference to "Nuremberg UFO battle" in 5, 4, 3…

BS: My pet theory is that both UFO aliens and fairies are in fact Molemen from the Earth's core. That explains everything about both!

TIC And, Fées also were generally described as beautiful women YouTube link

@ TNJRP

NBS: Okay, I am out of the closet. I do investigative work for one of THOSE organizations. I have only once in my life seen something I can't explain. I saw it at rather close range. I do not rule out an elaborate hoax, but it would seem a very costly enterprise just to fool me.

I review sightings on the average of 3 or 4 a month. I approach each instance with a skeptic eye. Most times people report such little information that it is difficult to conclude anything other than a probable natural or man made occurrence. Occasionally evidence is submitted that at face value, is difficult to explain in the realm of meteorological, astronomical, geophysical or aeronautical terms. These instances are classified as UNKNOWN, because they are.

I agree with those who believe that until some authority presents us with evidence, and arguably this has already occurred from South and Central American governments as well as the United Kingdom, Canada, and with less authority, from highly qualified American witnesses like Edgar Mitchell, Leroy Gordon Cooper, Buzz Aldrin and others, that the UFO phenomenon will retain its aura of surreality.

When we think of physics as humans define it, long range spaceflight is somewhat impossible in terms of human lifespan. I posit that we, as humans confine ourselves by our own definitions of reality. As we as humans explore the fringe of our scientific understanding, I think, like a mature adult often does, we realize the more we know, the more we don't know.

On this site I have been called many wicked things and accused of an unstable sanity at times. I take it in stride because I realize many people are very concrete in their thinking and are very uncomfortable "outside the box". I understand this and, contrary to the beliefs of a few, respect them for their comfort zone.

I can't quantify the percentages between the misunderstood with the not-understandable, but what I do believe, to answer your question, is that all the evidence to the contrary in the disbelief of UFOs as a potential extraterrestrial or extra-dimensional phenomena is not altogether convincing.

A such, I still investigate with severe prejudice but do not discount the extreme possibilities. The human senses are too confined in the electromagnetic spectrum and the human mind is too confined by limited schema to do otherwise.

Pyrate Captain 21 Mar 2012 5:10 p.m. PST

I have only once in my life seen something I can't explain. I saw it at rather close range. I do not rule out an elaborate hoax, but it would seem a very costly enterprise just to fool me

All I can say is, without any further information, is that we all have amazing faith in our own ability to correctly and without bias to interpret what our senses tell us.

I approach each instance with a skeptic eye

Well, yes, so do almost all of your "colleaques" if I'm not much mistaken.

Most times people report such little information that it is difficult to conclude anything other than a probable natural or man made occurrence. Occasionally evidence is submitted that at face value, is difficult to explain in the realm of meteorological, astronomical, geophysical or aeronautical terms. These instances are classified as UNKNOWN, because they are

As I recall, GEPAN/SEPRA arrived at something like 5% of the reported sighting being "truly unknown" in the sense that it should've been possible (according to them) to make out what caused the observation but attempts failed. Do you find this number to be in the correct ballpark?

[Presentation of evidence] has already occurred from South and Central American governments as well as the United Kingdom, Canada, and with less authority, from highly qualified American witnesses like Edgar Mitchell, Leroy Gordon Cooper, Buzz Aldrin and others

AFAIK Mitchell, Aldrin etc. have given us stories. Anecdotes are, unfortunately, not evidence in the sense I would be ready accept since I'm a firm believer in not "making a vast conclusion from a half-vast data".

As for the governments being in the know, I assume there is nothing forthcoming that we as normal members of the public could actually check up on and verify, is there?

When we think of physics as humans define it, long range spaceflight is somewhat impossible in terms of human lifespan. I posit that we, as humans confine ourselves by our own definitions of reality. As we as humans explore the fringe of our scientific understanding, I think, like a mature adult often does, we realize the more we know, the more we don't know.

The fact that we don't know everything doesn't mean that everything that can be conceived of is true or even likely to be true, however.

I'm not at all sure if the "terms of the human lifespan" are a critical strike against alien visitation BTW. Even with the physics being exactly as we perceive them ATM, there is nothing known that would absolutely prevent interstellar travel. The "laws of nature" just prevent xenoc fratboys from whisking at warp 9 from Alpha Centauri to here for a couple of flybys while mooning the local yokels from the backseat of their flying object.

I do believe, to answer your question, is that all the evidence to the contrary in the disbelief of UFOs as a potential extraterrestrial or extra-dimensional phenomena is not altogether convincing

I didn't quite follow this. I assume you are saying that you have reason to believe that some UFO phenomena are caused by extraterrestrial or extradimensional (whatever that means) agents?

A such, I still investigate with severe prejudice but do not discount the extreme possibilities. The human senses are too confined in the electromagnetic spectrum and the human mind is too confined by limited schema to do otherwise

The problem would be that you are yourself entirely limited by the same parameters as the rest of us. So how do you set about verifying the "extreme possibilities" outside of those parameters?

Well TNJRP any more information will require permission from my director to disseminate and will probably cost you several thousand dollars in speaking engagement costs plus transportation and per-Diem.

Let me know how you wish to proceed.

Cheers.

NBS: Okay, I am out of the closet. I do investigative work for one of THOSE organizations

NBS I think that is a fascinating thing to do, Pyrate Captain,and I envy you your job.

Pyrate Captain 22 Mar 2012 8:19 a.m. PST

Well TNJRP any more information will require permission from my director to disseminate and will probably cost you several thousand dollars in speaking engagement costs plus transportation and per-Diem.

Hmm, shouldn't such groundbreaking information as the conclusive evidence for extra-Earth life be freely available to the public, just like the groundbreaking findings of normal science are?

I'm rather tempted to be reminded of what Michael Sokolove said about Philip Klass: "[Klass'] real argument, like all debunkers', was not with the people who believed that they had witnessed or experienced some paranormal event but with those who made an industry of igniting their imaginations."

TIC YouTube link
For the nostalgia value!

The pics of the "humanoid female aliens", while amusing is a bit disburbing(?) … I hope if aliens do exist and do come here … they can offer us more than just "a good time" !! Not that I have anything against that, mind you !! Besides Klingon females don't bathe regularly, Romulans with those big fore heads get in the way, as do those Andorian "antlers" … Not to mention Orion Slave Girls, "take all your money(or Latinium) and break your heart" … Or so I've heard …

TIC Not to mention Shambleaus en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shambleau

And more generally:

Obviously … I like the Green one …

tnjrp 22 Mar 2012 10:08 p.m. PST:

Pyrate Captain 22 Mar 2012 8:19 a.m. PST

Well TNJRP any more information will require permission from my director to disseminate and will probably cost you several thousand dollars in speaking engagement costs plus transportation and per-Diem.

Hmm, shouldn't such groundbreaking information as the conclusive evidence for extra-Earth life be freely available to the public, just like the groundbreaking findings of normal science are?

Followed by crickets chirping.

Let's take a different approach and assume I'm ready to pony up a few thousand dollars to finally get to see them BEMs. Three questions beforehand: (a) what guarantees are you willing to give me that it will the real thing and not something vague and unverifiable and (b) if your evidence should turn out to be vague and unverifiable, will you (b1) reimburse me in full and (b2) pay for any costs incurred while attempting to asses the quality of the evidence and (c) how should we go about formulating a legally binding contract covering points a and b?

This in a NBS question BTW. Since you used the same shorthand for your answer before.

@TNJRP:NO BS

We need to take this off-line. Where may I contact you?

I'm sure you have a free e-mail address available just the same as I do so please provide it and I'll drop you a message forthwith.

Thought so.

"10th century peasants should have been anally probed by the bushels."

That was probably stopped after the first few. ("Oh zorg! The stench of those -things- is awful! I'm going to gitch! And what are these itchy little -things- crawling all over us?!")

"To be fair, we've only had two crashes: Siberia 1908 and New Mexico 1947. That's a pretty awesome flying record, if you ask me. :D"

Pretty poor piloting skill if you can't avoid hitting a ing planet. ;-) (Okay, they were probably distracted by their equivalent of texting…. ;-)

To be fair, we've only had two crashes: Siberia 1908 and New Mexico 1947. That's a pretty awesome flying record, if you ask me.

That's all we know of. There could be wreckage strewn on every planet from here to Skyton. Billions and billions…..

Pyrate Captain 28 Mar 2012 5:05 p.m. PST

Thought so.

You are the one who's selling. The minimum courtesy you can do to start with is to show me where the cash register is.

If you have trouble with even this, I strongly doubt you are willing to bear the burden of proof either.

A good salesperson recognizes a dead lead when he or she sees one.

And a good buyer knows when to be suspicious.

Noise.

How nice.

Pyrate Captain 29 Mar 2012 6:22 a.m. PST

A good salesperson recognizes a dead lead when he or she sees one.

It's nice of you to own up to being a salesperson tho. Most "ufologists" make claims to being scientist.

Since you, as a salesperson, seem to respond better to the offers of money, how much would it cost me to get you give me an e-mail address where I could contact you? Please note you'll need to provide me with a way to pay too, I'm not going to send you small bills in an envelope.

Whether it has been noticed or not, Pyrate Captain generally closes the door on a discussion that begins to read like Lord of the Flys.

There are certain participants that like copying quotations, twisting words and meanings and generally turning discussion into cheap circus. I am not one of them. Argument is not discussion and its tiresome.

Adults in civilized discussion don't engage in word twisting contests. Most people depart that behavior after their minds pass the concrete phase, (immediate post puberty).

Well, bless your little heart.

Well, How nice!

Indeed. I see that despite the NBS tags, you have nothing to offer except big yet vague claims offered with a side-dish of condescention. It's bye-time. Well past in fact.

What a pity it couldn't have ended without accusation, misinformation, and misleading statements. In its more sincere moments this was a good subject for discussion.

I realize that a couple of participants are just dying to get the last word.

Have at it.