"Russo-German Legion battalion composition?" Topic

Just about to start painting 3 battalions of Russo-German Legion to add to my Prussian 9th Infantry Brigade, III Army Corps. I have read that these units were organised in the Prussian style.

Does this mean that battalions had no elite companies?

And all headwear would be the same (ie no plumes)?

Raglan

Yes, no elite companies. Four companies per batallion, the third battalion were fusileers.

In the Prussian army, plumes were worn only on parade.

link

Many thanks,

Raglan

>Yes, no elite companies. Four companies per batallion, the third battalion were fusileers.

Did they have an elite company when they were in Russian service?

Mount St Jean has them in Russian Kiwers, but Prussian type jackets (although in green), for the hundred days campaign.

centjours.mont-saint-jean.com

I think someone mentioned these plates being inaccurate. That could be a bad memory on my part!

Here are the specific plates. I'll be painting these up myself next.

link

link

Cheers,
Thomas

Cheers Thomas,

Raglan

It is my understanding that the RGL battalions were numbered throughout the entire force, with 1st, 2nd and 5th battalions being in the 1st Brigade, whilst 3rd, 4th and 6th were in the 2nd Brigade. The 5th and 6th were the fusilier battalions, trained as light infantry. The 1st Brigade later became the Prussian 30th Regiment whilst the 2nd Brigade became the 31st Regiment.

I am in Spain at present but will try to dig out my source for this.

Rod

Cheers Rod,

That info is helpful.

Raglan

The regimental history of the 1st Thüringian Infanterie-Regiment Nr 31 gives many details on the Russo-German Legion.

This regiment was formed from the 3rd, 4th and 5th battalions of the Russo-German Legion in 1814, it was only in July 1814 that the battalions were renumbered 1st, 2nd and 3rd with the 3rd being designated fusiliers (page 60).

Its new clothing came from England (page 61).

At this point the book contains Thielman's report of 19 July 1814 which discusses the equipment. For example, English muskets, the sabres were mixed English and Russian, while the horse batteries had Russian 6-lb cannon & licorne, the Foot batteries received English 6-lb cannon & howitzers. It states the drill was the Prussian drill.

At the point the Prussians thought the Legion should be handled as the Saxons.

In the times of peace, the foreigners were dismissed and many others deserted. The regimental history gives the end of November 1814 strength by battalion of 1st – 180; 2nd – 135: 3rd – 515 men.

The Prussian King gave the regiment the new number 31 by an order dated the 25th of March 1815 (the first regiment received the number 30). On the 29th of March it was taken into Prussian service.

On page 69, the regimental history says the old Russian shakos were retained until after peace, while the men had new Prussian dark blue coats, while the officers tended to keep their Russian green coats although with Prussian badges having taken off the Russian badges.

Since, as of the 1st of April 1815, the regiment had only 49 officers, 119 non-commissioned officiers, 27 musicians and558 rank and file plus 11 surgeons, 2 bookkeepers and 62 train soldiers, it is reasonable to expect the new arrivals would have received new clothing (the regiment was completed with men from "Ersatz" or replacement battalions).

The regimental history can be found on Google at:

link

Enjoy. – R

To add to the prior post, is the regimental history of the 4th Rhein Infanterie-Regiment Nr 30 formed out of the 1st Brigade of the Russo-German Legion.

It can be found on Google at:

link

The target strength of each regiment for the 1815 campaign was 66 officers, 186 non-commissioned officers, 39 musicians, 2184 rank & file, 45 volunteer Schützen, 54 train, 2 doctors and 12 hospital helpers.

Page 34 of this history states the 30th Regiment only retained 475 men (110 non-commissioned officers, 13 musicians and 352 rank & file).

The regimental history says it received clothing from England in October 1814 and it was of Prussian cut.

This history makes specific mention that the Russian-style shakos were given to the men from the Ersatz (replacement) battalions (page 36).

Russian shakos, Prussian dark blue uniforms. – R

while the men had new Prussian dark blue coats

In my eyes, the text is unfortunatly not clear here. It says that during the 1815 campaign the men wore the "uniforms which had been newly made in winter" (which is winter 1814).

This was made with the cloth which had been sent to this purpose from England (a quantity for the whole etat strength of the legion), and of which the colour is unknown. It can well have been green, as it had been green before.

However, the "dark blue cuff flaps" mentioned on p. 69, could be an indication that the basic colour of the uniform was dark blue as well. Still, the final proof is missing.

Ralpher – this would mean that the plates I posted from Centjoursmont Saint-jean are incorrect regarding the jacket color.
They should in fact be Prussian Blue.

I wonder if the Musketeers had white belts and the Fusiliers had black, just as the Prussian Line Regiments did?

Oh my god, this has turned into a nightmare!!!

Green or blue, it's the big question, fortunately I have only undercoated the miniatures to date.

Raglan

Dress them in greatcoats ;-)

Oliver – I agree with your comment to some extent. Yet, Thielmann does say (page 61) "new uniforms" and that the cut was to be a Prussian pattern. Then, Thielmann says (page 62) that the regulations, "as with the equipment" are "just like the Prussian". No mention of color there. On pages 121-122, in refering back to the changes for the 1815 campaign, it says it was "dark blue pattern"(page 122).

wrgmr1 – I do not see a comment on the belts in either regimental history except in Thielmann's 1814 report where his states the infantry had black leather (Thielmann's meaning is that this goes for all infantry). Not clear if this lasted or was changed.

In this regard, both histories have a tone about the need to quickly gain men from the Erzatz battalions (not sure if they would have white or black or other). If those fellows had one belt or the other, I get the sense they did not spend time changing if they did not have the equipment.

One point on the plates is that the history for Regiment 31 says the troops mainly had white trousers when outside Paris (page 116).

The regiment did not have colors during the 1815 campaign (see footnote, page 120) which were not granted to them until 1816.

Trust this helps. – R

it says it was "dark blue pattern" (page 122)

Ralph, you misread this, it says "mit […] dunkelblauen Patten" – "Patten" or "Aufschlagspatten" are cuff flaps.

On p. 67, Gottschalk confirms the new set of uniforms was made around the turn from 1814 to 1815 from "the materials which had been delivered by England".

Also in the histories of the legion by Quistorp and Venzky, I couldn't find a hint to the colour of the cloth sent from Engand.

By the way, the same problem (uniforms of Prussian pattern = cut, but of which colour ?) applies to the horse batteries 18 and 19:

link

The Centjoursmont Saint-jean plates for the 31st Regiment have sky blue cuffs and collars, the 30th have red. So this is incorrect as well if page 122 says dark blue cuff flaps?

Here is a direct translation from the book you posted.

The raw materials for clothing necessaries were supplied by England, and removed in October 1814 in Bonn by a commission was. The preparation of the clothing was immediately carried out in accordance with said AK-O. of 17 September 1814 all the way to the Prussian section. Been started as the formation of the regiment, already a sufficient number of items of clothing may be present, the regiment was madder red collar and pale blue shoulder patches and rashes.

For every man according to the new budget were delivered: one new coat, a haversack, a pair of linen trousers, a pair of gray cloth booties, 1 and 1 Czakotüberzug leather tie.

The pieces were so small approximation Monti spent, that every man had 2 pairs of usable shoes and 30 pairs were included as a reserve in each company, also received every man 2 shirts and 2 pairs of socks.

Dress pants and cloth gloves came in view of the season not to issue. Coats and forage caps were not finished, the cloth required for this came to the regiment, was left to the production. It can not be assumed that the latter had progressed the march so far, that each man was provided with a jacket, however, seems to suppose justified that the mantle was fertiggeftellt until October, when the retreat was coming into the home.

Leather gear was not spent, the old one, which appeared to hold still usable, had to Säbeltroddeln received only the sub-officers.

The uniformity for even the set of the replacement battalion teams Czakots the old Russian type were given, whereas the 'own headgear and Feldkcssel and canteens old style, were issued in place of such a new kind, and all the not-to-use clothing at the main Monti approximate Depot were submitted to Dusseldorf.

Particular difficulty was the Jnstandsetzung of vehicles and harness, there were no new disposable, and their production could not be awaited. The available material had, as best they could be put into a usable state, war, medicine wagon to other vehicles were aptirt as existing in previous campaigns had become completely unusable.

The missing guns were received at the depot at Bonn, and specifically those of English work, while those delivered from the other construction Kompletirungsmannschaften brought guns, so that the whole regiment armed with British guns of the same caliber was. This was not to be underestimated advantage, because the latter because of their good work and rare failures are a very good reputation enjoyed, and to carry out the difficulty of the same caliber in the same regiment, so great was that shortly before the outbreak of hostilities exchange held in the various regiments of the semi. Four gauges were represented in the army: the old and neupreußische, the English and French.

Throughout the month of April, with the greatest diligence worked to provide the regiment with war-usable weapons and equipment, in the same way were also frequently held Ererzirund field exercises. It would prove to be very injurious to that arrived at the slowness of the then transport the displaced officers, just like the Kompletirungsmannschaften, by and by, for instance, reached the regimental commander, Major von Ditfurth, until 21 On april, the leadership of the regiment was during this time the Major von Schaper.

Due to a communication from the General Command of the 3rd Prussian army corps of 13 April (the same regiment was already allotted) were created from the Russian military standards' and the Prussian.

However, no mention of color. One can assume that being cut in the Prussian style it would be Very Dark Blue?
Thomas

The new unifom worn by the 2nd regiment of the German legion (31. Infanterie-Regiment from 29 March 1815) since January or February 1815 was, according to Gottschalk, p.69:

(green or dark blue) coat with
light blue ("hellblau") collars and cuffs
dark blue cuff flaps
red turnbacks
white shoulder straps

The white shoulder straps, also those on the greatcoats, were dyed yellow in May 1815.

Seems my eyes were over tired as, yes, the word is for cuff flaps.

It just stays in my mind that only 352 were in the ranks from the original unit (using the statistics in the history of the 30th) out of the regulation strengh of 2184 which difference was made up from the Ersatz battalions. (Actually, the regiment went 15 men over its establishment, so 2199 men.) My sense is those 1847 men from Ersatz battalions 1, 4, 5, 10, 11, 12 & 13 would have worn something. Then, for green to be the color, 1847 uniforms would need to be supplied.

If Gottschalk means both green and dark blue, it would seem to arise from this.

The green would have been left over while blue would be ongoing color. One might say that it makes sense that in all the changes after the unit went into Prussian service and after the 1815 campaign, there is no mention of color for the normal blue is intended.

I should say that my personal interest is for green (my Russo-German unit is in green), so I find it odd that there is no comment about green (suggesting to me the "normal" case for regulars – blue).

At least we have clarity in white trousers for summer. – R

I seem to remember that the original Russo-German Legion uniforms had different coloured shoulder straps for each battalion, although sources differ as to what colours these actually were. Logic would suggest either a Russian or Prussian system for these.

I am in Spain without my sources for this so I am reliant on memory.

Rod

If Gottschalk means both green and dark blue, it would seem to arise from this.

My mistake or lack of clarity, Gottschalk doesn't mention the colour, I only infered it had to be green or dark blue.

The material Great Britain had to send (and did send towards the end of 1814) for new equipment and clothing was due for 10.000 men (Venzky, p. 109).

I presume (I can't prove it though) that the men of the Ersatz battalions arrived in some uniforms, of course, but exchanged them for the ready made new regimental uniforms when they rejoined the 31st.

At least we have clarity in white linen trousers for summer. ;-)

Yeah, they can keep their pants on.

I do not have Venzky's Die russisch-deutsche Legion in den Jahren 1811-1815. (The University library here has a copy, yet I shall not be able to look at it until later this week.)

I put "10000" into the Google "copy" and did not get page 109; while "109" only got me the index.

What is his source for this?

The extact time of arrival would be important to "do the math" on the number left over after distributions (given the discharge of men and deserters during the peace interval) and determine the number left over to pass on to the men from the Ersatz battalions.

If they arrived at the end of 1814, few would be left over (in April 1814, the corps had 6190 men, though there was some turnover of deserters plus new arrivals – in July 1814 the 2nd Regiment had 2002 which might mean the entire corps had 5000 when they expected the new uniforms to arrive).

If received fore and worn during the winter, the "original" men might need new coats for the campaign in 1815.

If all 10,000 were green, for the entire corps to be in green, something like 4,000 coats would need to be on hand (and be given out) for the men from the Ersatz battalions (I round up for all rannks – the 1847 was for rank and file men for one regiment only).

10000 less 5000 (taken a reduced strength after desertions) distributed in 1814 less 1000 in 1815 to the "retained" men after coming out of winter quarters less 4000 for the men from the Ersatz battalions.

Just barely enough to keep everyone in green, though it seems the odds are getting longer if any of the men released in 1815 were given a new unform or it the corps was still at 6200 when the uniforms arrived in 1814.

All this assumes the uniforms shipped were green, naturally. – R

Venzky's book is largely based on the legion's papers which are located in the archives in Oldenburg (duke Peter Friedrich Ludwig had been one of the founders of the legion).

According to Gottschalk, the uniforms for the 2nd regiment of the legion were made between December 1814 and February 1815, so this gives a date ante quem.

If material for 10.000 men arrived, I believe (I don't have a proof) it would have been used for making uniforms for the etat strength:

2 x 2400 for 2 regiments of infantry
2 x 600 for 2 regiments of cavalry
ca. 500 for artillery, train and the Jäger company

Rest: material for ca. 3500 uniforms (I may be wrong by a few 100s), which however was not needed for the men of the Ersatz battalions, as these were just used to bring the infantry up to etat strength and received already finished uniforms. Surely, this material was not thrown away (however, it became "Prussian property" as late as March/April 1815, and the cloth may have been green:

On 9 April 1819 (yes, 4 years later) the Elberfeld manuscript (plate 59b) depicts a Prussian horse artilleryman in green. Maybe, this is the 1st horse company of the 8th (Rhenanian) artillery brigade, the former Reitende Batterie No. 19.

The Reitende Batterie No. 18 had ended up in the 3rd (Brandenburg) artillery brigade, far away from Elberfeld.

Thanks for those facts. I shall look at Venzky later on this week.

Looks as though 10,000 is the legal total for the Legion.

I say this as I see that the Convention of Peterswalde (24 June/6 July 1813) sets the Legion at 10,000 men (article 1). See Beilage 2 in Quistrop.

link

This convention was modified by the agreement of the 2nd of June 1814, which mentions it would retain its past strength (meaning 10,000). Under this agreement, Britain's support was only through the 1st of July 1814.

Then, just to mention dates – Thielmann's 19th of July 1814 report suggests he is awaiting uniforms to be supplied out of this convention. (I guess, from this time on it is no longer the Russo-German Legion but rather the German Legion, until the regiments are numbered for the Prussian army.)

This could mean that new uniforms completed in winter (December 1814-February 1815) were a different lot.

Very interesting indeed. – R

What an interesting question!

My 0.02 – It would be unlikely for a dark green uniform to have a dark blue cuff flap. Not necessary and totally contrary to period aesthetics. I would opt for dark blue uniforms.

I agree, I would opt for dark blue coats in 1815 as well.

The next question would be whether the RGL wore 1812 or 1809 kiwers.

The Elberfelder Bilderhandschrift gives a strong argument for 1812 Kivers – also most likley the 1809 ones were not any longer produced when the Legion was raised in 1812.
Also the Dömitzer Bilderhandschrift shows at least for an infantry officer a low shako, so most likley 1812 pattern

Thanks for the info. As a regt raised towards the end of 1812, the later model shako would be the logical choice. Presumably the stocks of 1809's were long used up by the large ukases of the previous couple of years.

Dr. Summerfield has listed in brazen cross of courage that the legion did use light companies and grenadier companies. He goes on to say what positions they occupied as well. See page 99 in the good book.