"20mm SYW" Topic

Hi People, Just throwing this in the mixing pot and looking for feedback. I own Lancer miniatures doing WW1 in 20mm but I have been chatting to my sculptor about maybe doing SYW as well. Its favourite of mine and there doesnt seem to be any other good 20mm ones around. I had huge front rank armies but the amount of table space needed and carrying a thousand figures down the club was painful meant they wasnt used much, in fact about once a year. I dont like 15mm, its too small for me. So as I said just looking for some feedback.

If these were roughly compatable with the Revell/ Hat/ Zvesda/ Art Minituren figures then I would be v interested ie slightly bigger than 20mm. Especially if you did items to fill in the gaps such as generals and their staff, heavy cavalry, grenzers etc.

There is always the 18mm range from Eureka, from what I've heard they are excellent

Outland Games has a nice range but I don't think they're currently available. Hat has Prussian infantry (3 sets) which will be re leased this year.

Thanks,

John

Eureka are a nice range but they are big 15s not 20mm and its 20mm I am interested in making. Mine will be fairly stocky, ie think, fronk rank but scaled down to 20mm. Not trying to compete with any one else, just trying to see if theres a market out there before I throw money at it, although I still want to do it even if its just for me and my opponents at the club.

well I think it a fine idea..though I am a little elephant's trunk at the moment..

It would be interesting if they can be used next to Revell/HaT/Zvezda, like guy Barlow said. I built my AWI armies, now growing into the SYW, around them and I can't be the only one.

I've been tempted by 20mm. For me, a metal range would have to look okay on the table with all of the plastic stuff that is out there.

Nice idea, just keep them compatible with Revell. Hanovarians or french would be a good starting point.

Im in 20mm SYW!!!

My first thoughts were Prussian and Austrians as they were the armies I didnt have in 28mm. But my first love is the French and British armies, will of course be my intention to have all sides. Just sorting some info and pictures out for my designer chappie and looks like this is a wrap.What would people like first no guarentees of course.

If they match Zvezdas GNW i would would definitely be in.

French first surely?

Yes build a range to fill the gaps in the plastic ranges, generals, some of the cavalry regts etc

French with all the pocket, lapel and cuff variations……a nightmare

I'm partial to Austrians, but I would probably use them for imaginary minor countries anyway, so it probably doesn't matter.

I don't know how economical it would be, but form a gamer's perspective, it would be nice to fill in some holes left by the plastics folks.

Interesting as I have published two volumes on the Austrian Army and another on the Saxon Army. It would be great to see some good figures in 20mm. Are you considering metal or plastic.

Hopefully my book on the Prussian musketeers will be out for the summer. Alas I have recently got a full time job so finishing will take a litle longer than the original date in April. Never mind, it has been fun.

Stephen

They will be metal in the same style as my ww1 figures. I like the 28mm look but in 20mm

Dear Lancer Miniatures

Why bother? There are lots of plastic manufacturers if you want to do SYW in that approximate size. Most 15mm are bigger than 15mm in fact, so closing on 20mm. All these " new " scales and intermediate scales are mere Flash-In-the- Pan distractions and won't last. Stick with 25mm/28mm or 15mm. There are more than enough subjects in traditional 20mm periods that still need to be done!

Hi Spontoon, Its my intention to build my 20mm range up to several hundred figures so lots of differant ranges, SYW is just the first idea. I dont really count plastic, nothing against them, I just think metal is better.what 20mm periods do you think are missing, interested to know, as I dont follow plastics so not sure what people are after.

I would be very interested in a SYW range. Also the wars of Louis XIV and Marlborough.

I would also be interested in a SYW range. If you would like suggestions for other periods, how about Franco-Prussian War, as the only other 20mm range that I know of for this is by B&B and from an enquiry I made on the 19th Discussion Board they seem to be a bit hit and miss.

I would also second Louis XIV and WSS.

With the way prices of 28mm figures are going I decided to take up Napoleonics with the excellent Newline Designs 20mm ranges.

Hi, you may not like plastics and that's ok. But from a competitive position WHY would a gamer buy a 20mm metal fig at 70-90 cents each when they can buy it in soft plastic at 9-12 cents each OR in hard plastic 28mm at 70-80 cents a fig? Something to consider.

Thanks,

John

Hi John good question, from my perspective, and been a gamer since 1975, I started off with 20mm ie airfix, but soon as 15mm started to arrive went to that, then 28mm. Now I am at a point in life where I find 15mm too small, 28mm too long to paint, ie more detail, and moving them around too heavy and storage loads of boxes, but I have found solice in going back to 20mm again, but as I have said before somewhere, I like 28mm quality in 20mm figures, and my sculptor is able to deliver that. I am only getting made what I want to game with, and I have been selling off two massive armies one being syw which is funding it all.soft plastics cant be bothered to paint, too many poses for a SYW army, in my eyes they dont look right.28mm Plastics not a chance, there is no way I would sit building them and then have to paint them, might just as well buy front rank 28s.So for me its not just about how much, but its my hobby, so I will buy what I want no matter what the missus says, even if I have to sneak them in

If compatible with the existing & forthcoming plastics (the HaT SYW Prussians are excellent)! This is a GREAT idea.

To avoid doubling-up, I would urge you to consider sets such as Croats & Pandours, Austrian and Prussian cuirassiers & other sets that would complement the plastic ranges & which will not be made by HaT etc for some time, if at all.

British & French & possibly Russians are the complete armies not yet in plastic companies' targets.There is money to be made here.

Good luck with the venture.

20mm SYW figures that match plastics are the best business opportunity in this hobby I can think of.

Please consider this.

WHY would a gamer buy a 20mm metal fig at 70-90 cents each when they can buy it in soft plastic at 9-12 cents each OR in hard plastic 28mm at 70-80 cents a fig?

Why wouldn't they if (1) they prefer metal to plastic; (2)the new figures look nicer than existing alternatives; or (3) likes the look of 20mm/HOscale figures and terrain as a whole package visual?

There are a lot of gamers who won't buy plastic figures under any circumstance for the simple reason that they prefer metal (and don't want to assemble figures). If the figures are nicely sculpted, they will find a market regardless and the buyers won't be comparing metal to plastic prices when they make their purchasing decisions.

Hard plastic 28mm vs. anything in 20mm = non sequitor

Gentlemen, I think that Lancer Miniatures has stated several times that he wants to do this range in 20mm and in metal. Arguing to the contrary isn't productive. He wants to know what you all think about a 20mm metal SYW range.

Let's keep on topic.

As to what I think of the idea:

(1) the majority of SYW gamers do Austria vs. Prussia, by a wide margin. I base this on my 7+ years as editor of the SYW Assn Journal and attending 25 straight years of the annual SYW game convention.

(1a) produce the armies that YOU want first

(2) start with the basic infantry for each side, then the artillery and cavalry.

(3) make a commitment to completing the range once you start it.

(4) if your figures complement existing plastic ranges, then that's nice, but it shouldn't be your first consideration

(5) I'm only aware of one metal 20mm range of SYW figures – and while nice, it is a bit dated by today's sculpting standards and has a lot of holes in the range that need to be filled (see Item No. 3 above). So there just might be a market for this range.

(6) no single plastic SYW offers a complete range of the basic combat arms – if you provide this basic need then your range could do well.

(7) SYW seems to be a bit saturated right now, but I think that new, state of the art sculpts can replace the old figures that many people already have. Maybe I'm an outlier on the curve, but when I saw the new Minden SYW Austrians and Prussians, I decided to sell off my existing armies and start all over again with the new figures because they were so much better, to my eye.

Hi Fritz. Actually, I disagree with you on some of what you posted. Competition is a very serious consideration for any business and its possible success. I'm an old 20mm fan from back in the 60-70's. I love the scale. But even I would have to seriously examine cheaper options even if in another scale. Plus like it or not, Hat and their 1/72 plastic figs vastly out sell metal ones. For folks who will happily use either plastic or metal figs would they more likely spend their cash on line infantry that cost a fraction of metal prices? I'd focus on items not likely to be made in 1/72 plastic at the least.

Outland games has a decent sized 20mm range that could come back online at any point. 28mm hard plastic and the new 18mm Blue Moon ranges are both very nice figs and VERY price competitive. The former run @70-80 cents (Hat are half of that price) each and the later run 30 cents. Old Glory is quite likely to flesh out its SYW range since they already do the FIW in 18mm. I'm not saying that folks won't buy any 20mm SYW metal figs. Heck, I probably may since I need to flesh my own armies out. But that's a lot of money to create a large 20mm range which based on competition may not prove to be as popular with all gamers. Plus metal prices seem to be rising again. How much will that affect a smaller company and price rises rather than either plastic, hard plastic OR Old Glory? Bottom line is we are already talking about a war that isn't a top tier interest for most gamers. Add in 20mm seems to be a much less popular/available scale and possible cheaper options in larger or similarly sized scales (ie 18mm) and you have narrowed your small customer base even more.

Just something to think about.

Thanks,

John

Competition is a very serious consideration for any business and its possible success. I'm

Yes, that is true. However, I liken the start up of miniatures company to owning a thoroughbred race horse. You do it because you fall in love with the idea, but not because you have any realistic hope of making money off of the venture. Both are black holes for your hard earned money.

@ DAF

6) no single plastic SYW offers a complete range of the basic combat arms

I have no doubt HaT will in 1/72. I have seen advanced releases of the HaT Prussian infantry. They are excellent figures in marching poses. Artillery figures have been designed, The rest will follow: HaT has a good record of completing ranges.

The market for 1/72 plastics, as John says, is very large & there seems a great deal of interest in the SYW. I do not believe a 20 mm metal range that duplicates plastic figures would do as well as one that looked for the gaps (see my earlier post) or covered armies not yet within the plastic manufacturer's ken.

Newline (do you know them?) market their metal 20s as "complementing the plastic range".

Been waiting a while for Hat to produce these. It will be years before a "complete" range of two nations with horse foot and guns is available.

I went for the limited but excellent Zvezda C18 figures so would love to expand these with metals.

Thanks guys for all the help and comments. Ordered the first bunch this morning, French in long coats. Soon as the greens are done will post some pictures up

The problem with Zvezda is they have lately been releasing everything in @26mm rather than 23 or 24mm. Most of their figs will simply not fit in with Hat or Revell. Since their will likely be many more sets from Revell and the pending Hat releases that are compatible, I certainly hope lancer doesn't make theirs in 26mm.

Thanks,

John

likely be many more sets from Revell

What do you know that I don't, John?

SYW French in 20mm:
TMP link

Most of the infantry are 20mm metal Wodenfeld.

These are large-ish: compatible with the Zvesda GNW figures & very nice figures which are available along with a growing list of WSS figures from John Cunningham in Wales.

CunnJoh@aol.com

John,

I would have to disagree with the Hat and Zvezda not being compatible. The test releases that I got of the Hat SYW Prussians are more compatible with Zvezda but will work well with Revell also. Hat confirmed to me that the production run would be the same size as the test shots. Remembering that the Revell SYW were on the larger side anyway. See my comparison shot. Not very clear but gives you an idea.

Forget to add also that I can understand the idea of producing figures that you want to do for yourself however I would have to agree with others sentiments from a starting a business perspective, that in this scale most customers will be plastics based using metals to fill gaps. If you want to make a business out of it then you'd need to concentrate on the gaps otherwise expect that while you will get what you want you may find the business side hard to get rolling. The other thing about keeping with compatibility with the plastics. Again if the figures get too bulky you will limit your market so while it may be good for you not such a easy way to get a business started. Take a look at Kennington or Tubling Dice figures that are classed in this same 20mm – 25mm scale. Both nice figures but bulky and don't really match in with plastics figures that well. I don't know how well these sell personally, but I don't know of many people that game/collect in this scale that have any more than a handful of these figures for that reason.

Hi, are you sure those aren't the 28mm versions? I'll be VERY disappointed if Hat releases 1/72 scale SYW figs with that large of a heft and won't be buying any! They will not fit with my Revell or my actual 20mm metal figs. This would be real misstep on Hat's part and I sincerely hope you actually got a 28mm version instead of a 1/72 one. Looking at your pic I believe you possibly did get the 28mm version. The Revell Prussians are 26mm tall and that Hat fig is taller than him.

Hey Donald, I merely meant that between the Revell and Hat sets we would have 8 or 9 total sets. Awesome looking SYW French army too! Really impressive.

Thanks,

John

John, these are the 1/72 ones. Donald and I game together and he's seen them also. I queried Hat about this at the time which is why I say they confirmed these would be the size of the production ones. After I took this photo I did notice that the other poses were slightly shorter but the heft really comes about because of all the equipment being carried rather than the figure itself. They actually sit between the Revell Austrian and the Zvezda figures. Part of the issue on sizing the figures comes from the fact the hats are separate and I think they have gone slightly too tall for that time period, but since the Revell are tall also I personally don't have too big an issue. The point being though the Hat figures will be more compatible with the Zvezda than you may think.

Daniel

Yeah, based on that pic they will fit well with Zvezda. The problem is that Revell and other metal 20mm ranges are more like 22-24mm. Height can be disguised but heft can't. So sadly, I won't be buying any of the large Hat SYW figs.

Thanks,

John

Hey Donald, I merely meant that between the Revell and Hat sets we would have 8 or 9 total sets. Awesome looking SYW French army too! Really impressive.

Thank you , John. Not that I have to tell you but it's good to be able to refute the lie that goes "You can't make whole armies in 1/72".

Dear Lancer;

Not enough companies making 20mm WWII Poles. Or Greeks, or Finns in Summer kit; Baltic States; Dutch,…

I too prefer metals to plastics, but sometimes you just ahve to bite the bullet!

I REALLY need 20mm WWII Poles to sell! My supplier makes 20mm WWII, but for some reason did the Poles in 15mm!

Who is your market? Is it the newbe just starting to build his armies or is it the senior gamer who wants to fill in those missing spots in his forces? If I were doing it I think I would look at what is out there now and then design my range to fit in with the more popular. I would produce what that range is missing. HaT has the Prussian infantry, what about calvary and artillery? Or some Freikorps? How about French, British, Hanoverians or some of the other states? I can't see directly competing with some of the established cheaper lines.

Hi Spontoon. Havent really got into WW2 yet, only WW1 and the range is coming on in leaps and bounds. I know my friend at early war miniatures does Dutch not sure about polish though. My WW2 should be coming out in mid year but it will just be the obvious to begin with. The 7YW is only ever going to be a side line, dont get me wrong it will be a full range, but never a money maker, its just something I want for myself and some friends and if I can sell enough to cover costs I will be happy.

I will definitely be taking a keen interest in this, where's the samples

Lancer Miniatures;

Of course some of you WWI figures can be used for WWII…,

Why not just put a SYW master in the mold with more lucrative 20mm figures when there's space.

There are definitely some figures that need to be done in 20mm SYW that aren't ever going to be done in plastic. Ie. personality figures, obscure light infantry, .

Please keep me posted about SYW figures.

Early War Miniatures does have a Polish range.

link

As far as SYW goes I have a significant number of Eureka 18mm with some Blue Moon so even though I prefer 20mm I would probably not start over at this point. However, when I get to my WW1 project I now have a great 20mm source!

Well I already have far too many SYW figures, in both 15mm and 28mm – so I could well be interested in your project. (I'm finding the smaller size too fiddly these days, and the larger one has more detail than I'll soon be able to paint properly.)

Not looking for the stockier type of 28mm reduced to 20mm size however. If that's what you want, fine, but I wouldn't expect too many others to follow. One reason to go for 20mm is reduced frontage per figure, i.e. more room on a standard table, which would be more or less negated by stocky sculpts. (It works the other way between 28mm and 40mm – the latter, being anatomically less exaggerated, don't seem to take up much more space).

So if you're looking for some money-spinners to start the range, like others I'd say keep it compatible with Zvezda & Revell, and work from the top down: generals, cuirassiers, artillery,light troops, possibly some civilians even (see other TMP threads).

OR, just commission what you want and see who else likes it once it's available – that seems to be the fashionable approach these days.

Good luck in any case, and I'll look forward to first greens.

Oh and like others above I'd love to see late 17th C. figures in 20mm – the 15s out there aren't too impressive, and 28s are just too big to stage a siege game…