"Considering FoW" Topic

A question for folks who play FoW and enjoy it:

I've been playing BKC and Command Decision for a while, but I want to switch to something more "1:1" in its vehicle scale. My figures are 10mm, so infantry will stay on stands.

With these criteria, FoW is certainly on the evaluation list. Looking at the published material, FoW seems to cover a lot of things I think are important, like training and morale.

So, a couple of questions:
- what are the command and control mechanisms?
- what would I need to shell out cash for (I don't mind doing OB research and downloading) for East Front 44/45 including Romanians)?
- what are the basic mechanisms for firing/killing a tank?
- Do the rules require model turrets that rotate?

Most important, what are the key factors making the game fun? What parts are unfun?

Command & Control: It's a fairly simple mechanic here. There's no "activations" or anything like that. Essentially as long as a platoon (soviet Company) has a commander they can move, shoot, etc as normal. If their commander dies they sort of sit there twiddling their thumbs. Higher command teams (Company Command, 2iC) can appoint new commanders. Company commanders can allow a unit they temporarily join to re-roll failed motivation checks.

The better your training level is the more a unit can spread out (Command Distance).

*As a veteran wargamer you'd really need 2 things at a minimum: Rulebook (new edition was just released), and artillery template.

Ideally you'd want to grab Red Bear to run Romanians on the Eastern Front. These lists are available to build online at EasyArmy.com but some of the National special rules and the like won't be on Easy Army. Additionally, a set of tokens for status effects (Bogged, Pinned, etc) would be helpful.

*Decent explanation here: link

*It's fun because it's easy to find a game, plays fast, and can be as historical or as competetive as YOU make it. It works well in tournament situations, and it works just as well in historical scenarios.

We have a ton of battle reports, a podcast, and a friendly, helpful forum on our site as well: wwpd.net

The mechanism for killing tanks is pretty straightforward.

Roll D6s to score hits. Chance to hit is based on the training level of the TARGET (more experienced troops use cover better so are harder to hit) modified by range and concealment.

For each hit the TARGET rolls an armor saving throw. Basically, roll a D6 and add that to the armor rating of the part of the tank that was hit (front or side in most cases). If the die roll + the armor exceeds the armor penetration rating of the weapon then the hit bounces off with no effect. If the roll + armor is less than the gun penetration then the hit penetrates. The attacker now has to roll a D6 and equal or exceed his 'firepower rating' to actually kill the tank. If he fails then the tank is 'bailed' (temporarily disabled). In the case that the die roll + armor exactly equals the armor rating then the attacker must make his firepower roll to bail the tank.

Some tanks have special rules like "protected ammo" or "burns easily" that modify some of these rolls. All in all, it's quick and easy once you get the hang of it.

"bailed" is the worst term in the game. I think they'd change it if there weren't already thousands of markers out there :P

I think Phil (the game designer) has lamented on several occasions that he wished Bailed wasn't used, but don't quote me on that.

Thanks Scott!

There are plenty of plus's and plenty of opponents as above, but much depends on how you regard 1:1 scale. The sliding scale does allow on to put loads of kit on the table but it may be you want a little more detail such as Panzermarsch (which does have a Romaanian list but is not widely played) or Kampfegruppe Normandy (designed for Normandy but work in progress for other theatres – plenty of info and AARs here – link )

Tally Ho!

FoW basing looks so much better in 10mm than 15mm IMHO.
The 10mm I do have (which is not much) is based that way.

- what are the command and control mechanisms?

So long as troops are unaffected by negative morale effects there really are not any, save the increased dispersion for better trained units. However, the proximity of your CO becomes very important to address "Pinned" inf/guns or "Bailed Out" tanks who otherwise may not be able to advance and may shoot with generally 1/2 less effect. So until the enemy starts applying negative effects against you units can pretty much move at will. But once they start getting pounded, placement of your C2 nodes (CO, 2IC, etc) becomes very important. The 2IC will become important as that element can "appoint" new platoon command teams when a platoon's original platoon commander has been lost.

- what would I need to shell out cash for (I don't mind doing OB research and downloading) for East Front 44/45 including Romanians)?

The new V3 rule set will be out next month. That will be $60 USD +/- and it will have a Forces book that will cover some basic list for US, UK, German, and USSR. In addition to that I'd add in Red Bear ($2) and East Front ($2) access from EasyArmy. So $64 USD will be sufficient to get you rolling.

- what are the basic mechanisms for firing/killing a tank?

Roll to hit based of the training level of the target (Vets are harder to hit etc). If a hit is achieved the target's player then rolls a "save" (D6 + his armor to match or beat the AT value of the shooting gun). If that D6+armor exceeds the AT, then no damage effects occur. If that D6+armor ties the AT then a "Bailed Out" effect will be applied if a following Fire Power test is passed (Usually a 3+ but can be more or less based on explosive power of the round). If that D6+Armor is less than AT, then a successful following Fire Power test will destroy the tank, if unsuccessful then it will get that "Bailed Out" effect applied.

- Do the rules require model turrets that rotate?

Yes..or the ability to keep track of which way they are pointing if not forward.

I've been playing BKC and Command Decision for a while, but I want to switch to something more "1:1" in its vehicle scale. My figures are 10mm, so infantry will stay on stands.

The greatest aspect of FoW is its "portability" i.e. being able to find gamers just about anywhere for it (Derek's home area being a notable exception), but that portability may not do you much good if you are staying with 10mm and the majority of the FoW games with 15mm. I BTW could accommodate you with a 10mm game and there are others…but we are more sparse than the straight up 15mm players.

I'd recommend you keep on trucking with BKC. That 1:1 "thing" really kind of melts away for me anyway once I start pushing toys and rolling dice. But if you want to look more into FoW, then maybe pick up a V2 rules set cheap and peruse EasyArmy for some of the free lists to check it out further.

Cheers, VB

"bailed" is the worst term in the game. I think they'd change it if there weren't already thousands of markers out there :P
I think Phil (the game designer) has lamented on several occasions that he wished Bailed wasn't used, but don't quote me on that.

You are correct indierockclimber. The "effect" is more like a buttoned-up/suppressed thing than the crew actually "abandoning ship." Basically when this effect is applied the crew may be cowering under the vehicle, in a ditch next to the vehicle, trying to deal with fire/damage within the vehicle, or simply hugging the floor of the vehicle.

The key point is that until the crew gets its act together that the vehicle is unable to move or shoot and is vulnerable. The confusion comes in when players think they can target the crew separately from the tank because they are "Bailed Out" but as noted the crew here is not necessarily making itself available as a target to small arms fire.

VB

Yeah there are lots of WW2 rulesets out there.
I have FOW and I Ain't Been Shot Mum. IABSM is 1:1 and can be played using the FOW basing without any problems.
Are you a solo gamer or club based? I would think that who you are gaming with may enter into the thought process about what rules to use.

David

As VonBurge said, rolling to hit is based on how good the target is, not how good your guys are. There are 3 "ability" ratings: Conscript, Trained, and Veteran. Conscripts are hit on a 2+, Trained on 3+ and Veterans on 4+. These numbers are the base "to hit" and can be modified.
Long range (over 16 inches away) add +1
Concealed (at the egde of woods or behind a burning vehicle etc.) add +1
Gone to ground (in concealing terrain and didn't move or shoot last turn) add +1

These modifiers are cumulative, so there are situations where you cannot shoot at a target:
eg. target is Veteran armour, at long range that is concealed and gone to ground is a 7 to hit.
You can remove these modifiers by closing to short range, and having your recon lift "gone to ground"

This can be a pretty good summary also:

link

I'd recommend you keep on trucking with BKC.

After a couple of *very* frustrating games, where there were two players but the activation dice achieved a cease-fire, I am also looking for rules where "activation" and "dice" do not occur in the same paragraph. I understand the rationale, and I can cite historical examples where it gets close to reality, but right now I like the look of "commander in X inches, Bob's your uncle"

Yep, been there before to with BKC. But the flip side of sometimes not being able to activate in BKC is that sometimes you can do a lot more than would be expected.

As a house rule we routinely automatically pass all initial orders on the 1st turn to help get units into the fight, then hopefully the 20cm "Opportunity" activation kind of keeps the war hot even when the dice are cold.

So with FoW, unless bailed or pinned, you'll generally get a chance to do what you want to do. The key C2 aspect then being positioning of the CO (and Higher Command teams, Commissars, etc) to give you more chances to shake off those bad effects in your main effort units.

I like BCK and FoW both, but can understand the frustration that BKC can sometimes generate with bad command rolls.

That, and I could do with a different set of abstractions -- something that maps to real world events a bit more directly and simply (I leave "more realistically" as a secondary concern). The kill mechanism in BKC works OK, but it lacks the simple conceptualization of a hit/penetrate/kill model.

I may also revert to the old WRG armor and infantry rules; they were always good fun back in the old days.

"I may also revert to the old WRG armor and infantry rules; they were always good fun back in the old days."

Indeed they were, and in fact still are. Despite the dubious timescale, the 'shoot then move' mechanism is a briliantly simple way of modelling the advantage of the defender in modern warfare.

The scanned version on Phil Barkers website even has his notes for the never published 2nd edition on them (the revisions are pretty minor).

Yes the WRG rules were pretty impressive. My only problem was keeping track of the 'modes' various units were in…Wonderful rules for their day…

Since you're interested in Romanians they have a couple of pdf army lists for them on the website to check out. One of them is PDF link

My only gripe with BKC is the (Very Occasional) Mad outcome, such as the time 4 T26's in the open mowed down everything in range, or the time a Stuart knocked out a Jagdtiger with two shots.

I KNOW the first Tiger in North Africa was knocked out by a couple of lads with a pop-gun, but it happens just a little TOO often in BKC.

Pat

My only gripe with BKC is the (Very Occasional) Mad outcome, such as the time 4 T26's in the open mowed down everything in range, or the time a Stuart knocked out a Jagdtiger with two shots.

Strange things happen in real combat just as on the table top. One of your Stuart shots might have been a track hit! Bad news there for a big AFV with no turret!

I know you feel that these outcomes occur too often with BKC, but I really like the fact that it drives people away from relying too much on "uber-tanks." There's a healthy bit of vulnerability to everything in BKC that any soldier, even a M1A2 tanker, can appreciate.

Cheers, VB