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"Grenada and Panama 1980s" Topic


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1,669 hits since 8 Feb 2012
©1994-2026 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

tinned fruit08 Feb 2012 11:58 a.m. PST

After watching two episodes of Killzone on Just Cause and Urgent Fury I find myself dusting off my old 20mm figures to give these conflicts a go.

Anybody got any good recommendations for operational histories for scenario ideas for AA.

Thanks in anticipation.

Phil

thatguy9608 Feb 2012 12:06 p.m. PST

Some links you might find useful:

link

link

Ed von HesseFedora08 Feb 2012 12:34 p.m. PST

There are some official US Army titles:

link

Click on "published material"

Ed

Pan Marek08 Feb 2012 1:04 p.m. PST

Don't you think these "conflicts" a bit one-sided to game?

(Expelled Member)08 Feb 2012 1:11 p.m. PST

Best book on Grenada is Mark Urban's eponymous title. Very well written, Urban was on the staff for the invasion as the representative of the Barbados Defence Force (seconded from the British Army. It has quite a bit of useful information for scenarios.

The whole thing was an exercise in how not to plan an invasion. Had the Grenadans been a tougher opponent then things could have turned very nasty for the US, albeit winning it was always a lay down misere. The special forces ops were all unmitigated disasters in terms of planning and execution.

dglennjr08 Feb 2012 1:27 p.m. PST

One of my projects, under development, is putting together 20mm troops to do the same thing. I got a bunch of 1980's US troops and some 1980 Cubans & Russians. The hardest part for me has been compiling any vehicles to add to the frey and make it interesting.

Cuban BTR-60PB (finally picked up a 1/72 model kit for about $12 USD)
Cuban BRDM-2 (hard to find…ACE makes a 1/72 one, but rarely available.)
-For both of these, Liberation Miniatures also makes a resin version, but sometimes out of stock.

ZPU-4, Quad 14.5mm AA gun. (Can't find one.)
ZU-23, Dual, 23mm AA gun. (Can't find one.)
ZSU-23, Quad, 23mm AA gun, self-propelled. (Can't find one.)
Russian or other 'foreign' supply/troop trucks?

US Huey's (Have a few from my Vietnam forces)
US Blackhawk (Have a few from my modern forces)
US Cobra (Have one.)
US Jeeps (Have a couple that are usable, with 50 cal. MG)
US M102 Howitzer (Have one and crew)
US transport trucks?

What else would one use in the Grenada Scenarios? What other vehicles did the US bring to Grenada?

References state that 250+/- Marines landed with tanks and amphibious vehicles on Day one @ 1900. What were the tanks and vehicles?

-David
gamerarchitect.blogspot.com

dglennjr08 Feb 2012 1:54 p.m. PST

Pan Merek,

I don't think so.

1. Gives you new figures to field and to paint. (or in my case, to repurpose some older figures from other ranges with limited 'new' figure additions.
2. The U.S. is on the offensive, so they need a numerical superiority to win. A turn based vistory might be more approriate? I.E.: If the Cuban/Grenadian forces hold out long enough, something else 'X' happens. To make it more even, you can always give the 'enemy' more prepared positions, more weapons, and etc.
3. I think securing the airfield, resucuing the students, and securing points of resistance could be interesting scenarios, for example.
4. With the right figures, and Clint leading the way, run a ficticious 'Heartbreak Ridge' scenario. (Yes, Heartbreak Ridge was supposed to be a Korean War battle, but is also the name of the Eastwood movie involving the invasion of Grenada.

Just my 2 cents.

-David
gamerarchitect.blogspot.com

tinned fruit08 Feb 2012 2:18 p.m. PST

Thanks for the input and suggestions.

I'm with David and AA is ideal for these sort of conflicts.

I think the book Fodase suggested is by Mark Adkin – I've got his book on Goose Green and it's excellent.

For ZPU-4 try Liberation Heavy Weapons SOV8, the twin 23mm as well as the ZSU-23-4 are done by S&S Models who also do a BRDM-2.

Phil

dwight shrute08 Feb 2012 2:20 p.m. PST

You mean Mark Adkins '' urgent fury '' ??
and also check out Aaron Longbottoms labour of love in the SOTCW journal which is also still on their old website

dwight shrute08 Feb 2012 2:22 p.m. PST

sotcw link ; link

ComradeCommissar08 Feb 2012 2:57 p.m. PST

dglennjr,

S&S Miniatures have Soviet trucks (URAL 375 & GAZ 66). Very nice models.

whoa Mohamed08 Feb 2012 3:04 p.m. PST

S&S models also do the ZU23/2 ,Liberation did at one time the ZPU 14.5/4 quad and I think S&S do a shilka if not there should be many plastic kits about…Mikey

Pan Marek08 Feb 2012 3:20 p.m. PST

I stand corrected! In regards to 1980s Soviet bloc vehicles, there's always good ol' Roco Minitanks. Sure, they're really 1/87, but they don't look bad next to 20mm figs if you don't mix them with true 1/72 vehicles. Ebay is your source, and you can get GAZ jeeps, ZiL trucks and T-55 tanks pretty easily. They also do a BTR 152. Other vehicles are a problem, but sometimes Russian diecast toys show up in 1/87. Of course they have US equipment too.

(Expelled Member)08 Feb 2012 5:27 p.m. PST

Sorry Adkin not Urban, quite correct.

Grenada didn't have ZPU-4s, they had second or possibly third hand Czech quad 12.7mm AAMG, along with a handful of ZU-23s. These were manned by the Militia.

shaun from s and s models09 Feb 2012 5:44 a.m. PST

we do a huge range of cold war vehicles, guns and figures.
if you would like a list please email me
sales@sandsmodels.com
thanks for the recomendatiosn chaps, much apreciated
shaun

Jemima Fawr09 Feb 2012 11:01 a.m. PST

There are some orbats on the Fire & Fury site:

PDF link

PDF link

Each infantry stand represents a squad/section, while each vehicle or heavy weapon represents 2-3 actuals.

Old All American10 Feb 2012 5:09 p.m. PST

As a veteran of Urgent Fury (I was with Btry B, 1st Bn (Abn) 320th FA, 82nd Abn Div, we were the supporting artillery for the 2nd Bn (Abn) 325th Inf, the first Battalion Task Force to follow the rangers at Salines).

I would suggest using the ESCI "Modern" US Infantry (or "Shock Troops" as they were once labeled)or the Airfix Modern US Infantry for the 82nd as (contrary to Clint's movie) the 82nd was the only unit in any of the branches to have the then-new Kevlar helmet. We received every helmet in DoD's inventory after JTX Gallant Eagle 82nd, a major parachute catastrophe (again I was involved) that revealed our old WWII issue parachutist's helmets caused most of our injuries. Every other unit were still wearing the old M1942 steel "pot" – including the rangers and Marines. The rangers had plain green Vietnam era jungle fatigues while we in the 82nd sweltered in our heavier temperate climate Battle Dress uniforms which were in forest camouflage. I believe the Marines were in BDUs, too, as I recall.

Figures based on the newer wars (post 9-11) might work, but be mindful that the newer versions of the Kevlar helmets do not go down as far over the ear as the first versions we wore.

As far as our opponents were concerned, they were issued with lightweight Soviet-style uniforms and equipment (I still have a jacket the previous owner no longer had any use for) and Soviet-style helmets (which I found surprisingly flimsy up close). Regulations may have called for the shirts to be tucked in but the guys I saw had their shirt-tails out in the heat. The color of the uniforms was a uniform dark olive color with Soviet style rank epaulets.
They used Soviet weapons.

After about the third day most of the Grenadian soldiers and militia shed their uniforms for civilian clothes and stashed their AKs during the day coming out at night to take potshots at our positions.

As far as books are concerned I have yet to find a single book on the battle that is accurate. Adkins book was particularly disappointing because he WAS present at the highest levels and should have known better than to say some of the things he said. I know I had a worms-eye view of the battle and often one's perspective can be skewed, but later on I served at XVIII Abn Corps G-3 Plans and Operations and was privileged to read the classified after-action report on the battle; this clarified some misperceptions about some of the things I saw so I think I have a good understanding of the overall operation.

If you are interested in my review of Adkin's book and rebuttal to much of what I disagree with, here's the link:

link

I am W. Wood, by the way. Hope this helps.

(Expelled Member)10 Feb 2012 9:53 p.m. PST

Interesting but your critique really only picks up on fairly minor issues of detail, nothing that dispels the impression that Atkin gives of a poorly planned operation, based on Bleeped text poor intelligence. Too many cooks spoilt the broth.

The Rangers were particularly lucky that they didn't encounter stiffer resistance, it could have been an absolute turkey shoot.

The Special Ops missions were again poorly planned and only one of them, picking up Sir Paul Scones could ever be described as being remotely succesful.

Of copurse the whole thing was almost certainly unneccesary, there was no threat to US medical students, there was no realistic prospect of Grenada becoming some sort of springboard for world revolution. Actually, when Coard and Co killed Bishop, they almost certainly guaranteed that their revolution would fall apart. Most Grenadans were apparently quite happy about the invasion. The whole thing has a Gilbert & Sullivan feel to it.

Still, the US killed nowhere near as many non-combatants as they did trying to arrest a bloke on their payroll in Panama.

Old All American11 Feb 2012 12:16 a.m. PST

I believe I gave Maj Adkins credit where credit was due but did point out some of the factual errors I found in the book as examples – there was no way in the limits of the review I could list (nor would I care to) all the problems I had with some of his facts. As it was I merely listed those I could remember off the top of my head.

As far as the battle being unnecessary – that is a matter of opinion. I can still remember hearing the Grenadian people singing "God Bless America!" You say there was no possibility of Grenada becoming a "springboard for world revolution" – again, you weren't there. When my battery moved up from the airstrip on D+3 I was assigned to take a couple of my troops and clear out a school behind our area. It turned out the place was being used to train Grenadian soldiers. Among some of the documents we recovered was a photo album with a pictures of a black man with fur coat and hat with snow all around him. In the background was a building with cyrillic lettering on its signs.

We also found notebooks containing instructions on how to establish insurgencies in a foreign land, how to locate folks who were displeased with their government and organize them. Another interesting subject discussed was how to defend against a probable invasion from the US.

Couple that with some 300,000 Soviet-made weapons we found in warehouses on the islands (AK-47s, etc.) – enough personal firearms to give about 3 AKs to every man, woman and child on the island (population around 100,000 at the time) it makes one wonder what all those guns were for? Of course then, that's not talking about all the other weapons we found still in cases. They definitely had more military style weapons than were needed for self-defense.

It is easy to say now, almost thirty years removed, that the revolution was sure to fall apart; at the time we had no real way of knowing exactly what was going on – just that chaos was breaking out, there had been executions, we in the 82nd heard rumors of mass executions but I've not been able to find anything to confirm that in anything I read so it might just have been rumor control. In the middle of that were our students. Remember, just a few years before 54 US citizens had been held hostage when a similar situation broke out in Iran. Reagan was not about to allow that to happen on his watch. Hindsight is always 20-20, the fact the invasion was successful means we'll probably never know exactly how much danger our people were in. I do know from guys who were there was that when the Delta Force folks went in to secure the students at Grand Anse, they had been under armed guard.

Were mistakes made? No doubt. As I explain in my review there were reasons for those mistakes. But even Norman Schwarzkopf, who was ground commander of the operation admitted those mistakes and said the battle was won on the squad, platoon, and company level – something I still believe Maj Adkins gives short shrift to. Also, accept the fact this operation was pretty much thrown together – hence the code name "Urgent Fury." As I say in my review, I didn't even have a good military map of the island, this operation came up at the last minute; in a perfect world we would have had more time to plan, more time to organize, more time to gather intelligence; and though we did have some Delta people on the ground observing the situation the situation changed so rapidly in the days leading up to the invasion it appeared to the command at the time that time was of the essence.

To that I agree.

One of the things that struck me most when I first arrived on the island was the numerous anti-aircraft emplacements scattered around the airstrip. The AA guns for those emplacements were still in crates in warehouses we liberated. I have often wondered (and shuddered) at what would have happened had Reagan delayed the invasion by even a day or two or, worse (from my point of view) gone through the diplomatic rigamarole that seems necessary today to get UN permission to go into the island. Those guns would have been out of the crates and in their emplacements waiting for us when we came in. The rangers would have been obliterated in the air. Considering the fact that at one point I was chuted up ready to drop in but was stood down when the airstrip was finally cleared I might have been a target, too.

The entire situation in Central and northern South America was very tense. With the accession of the Sandinistas to power in Nicaragua under the Carter Administration all h--- broke lose in that region of the world. I know from firsthand experience that all sorts of guerilla and insurgent activity was being sponsored by the Nicaraguan government; much of this activity was being financed through co-operation with the drug cartels in Columbia and other places; groups like FARC and shining path were running drugs and terrorizing the folks in the region in general.

I made a couple trips down there following Grenada as part of the effort to halt or stop the flow of drugs and/or stop the narco-terrorists from terrorizing the folks down there. I left the service due to residual effects of injuries incurred in JTX Gallant Eagle 82 in 1987 so wasn't in on the invasion of Panama. Your final statement on the invasion again reveals an arrogance and lack of appreciation for the situation on the ground in the late 80s as the Cold War was coming to a climax. The fact is; when I was in Noriega was considered an ally in our fight against the spread of communism and narco-terrorism. We needed allies. As JFK once said about Anastasio Somoza, "He may be an SOB, but he's our SOB."

That was the realpolitik of the Cold War. As they say in the Middle East, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." We were in the middle of a struggle for the survival of our way of life (and for those of you who are too young to remember the Cold War, or didn't see the communists at work and play in the various nations across the globe I'm not exaggerating here); we found ourselves in bed with some unsavory people. I'm not saying it's right or it was the right thing to do, hindsight tells us often it was a mistake. However, the alternatives seemed no better. After all, Jimmy Carter turned his back on the Shah of Iran after years of his being our friend – we now deal with the current regime in Iran. Carter turned his back on Somoza, we got the Ortega brothers and the Sandinistas and the communist-backed revolutions in El Salvador, Costa Rica, Honduras and in the Southern parts of Mexico.

And it is an easy thing to say the US should have backed off and had I not been in some of these places and seen the atrocities performed on innocent civilians by so-called "freedom fighters" I might agree. But I've seen up close and personal things that haunt me to this day, done in the name of the "People's Revolution." I think we were on the right side. As bad as some of the guys on our side were, my experience tells me the alternatives were usually much, much worse. But what do I know, I was just there,right?

As for Noriega, the best I can tell is the guy went crazy – maybe always was. I never got to meet the guy, that was above my paygrade; but the guy not only ceased to be useful to us, he was a danger to his people as well as our interests.

As far as non-combatants getting killed are concerned it is a sad fact of war that it is the innocent who suffer most. I know from my own experience that we do the best we can to avoid killing civilians – even to the risk of our own lives; but people talk about "surgical" strikes with high explosive rounds and I laugh. The "surgical" solution is 5.56mm (or 7.62); that isn't always practical.

I remember the first Grenadian civilian I met. We were north of the airstrip and a group of civilian refugees was being led through our position to the school I talked about that had now been converted to a refugee holding area. She was a young mother, holding a young son, about two years-old with one hand and carrying a suitcase with all her earthly possessions in the other. I felt kind of awkward, after all, here I was a foreign invader and I didn't quite know how the local people would receive us. So I tried to open up a conversation by telling her what a lovely island Grenada was.

"Denks," she said in that Caribbean accent they have down there. "We lak it."

"It's a shame we have to come down and blow it up," boy, I felt silly. But what does one say?

"Dat's okay," she said. "You do what you have to do and you give it back to us."

I think that about sums it up for both Grenada and Panama.

I suppose one could say it had a Gilbert & Sullivan feel to it if one wasn't there or wasn't killed or maimed in the battle. There was a movie one time that made the comment the battle lasted about twelve hours. Actually it lasted somewhat longer than that, but for those who were killed there on both sides and for guys like a kid in my unit who lost his legs there it lasts forever.

The sad thing about the book is that this IS one of the best out there (I kind of liked Osprey's book, but it didn't attempt to be nearly as comprehensive). Adkins makes some valid points in his analysis there were command and control problems left over from the horrific post-Vietnam military of the late 70s. I make point of that in the review. And he did write the book before the corrections to those flaws became apparent. I would love to have given the book five stars but the factual errors may seem minor to some, but they are vital in understanding the battle and learning its lessons. To accuse we in the artillery of leaving our aiming circles at home is a serious accusation of incompetance that is exacerbated because it is so wrong. To say our artillery bombardment of Calvigny Point missed the target altogether is another example. All one has to do is Google it up and you can see pix of the damage we did. It was still there the last time I checked. Now, the problem with these factual errors (and several others) is that if he is wrong about these things what else did he get wrong? But I still gave the book three stars. A good read, but one I would approach with caution.

tinned fruit11 Feb 2012 4:19 a.m. PST

Thanks Old All American for your insights into the operation and the cooments on Adkins book.

Phil

Old All American11 Feb 2012 8:37 a.m. PST

Glad to help TF.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP11 Feb 2012 11:34 a.m. PST

Many thanks Wayne for your first hand account about Grenada.
Very interesting to know those details not very common to see on books, etc.

Amicalement
Armand

(Expelled Member)11 Feb 2012 1:28 p.m. PST

Good response and I take a number of your points, I can't imagine anyone being particularly enthusiastic about the Newel Jewel movement, pre or post Bishop's demise. Manuel Noriega was a bad guy, no question of that but for the most part the US fears about some sort of monolithic communist conspiracy in the region were misplaced and more often than not invited by your own policy. Anyway, beyond this point this becomes a largely political discussion so perhaps I should refrain.

I also appreciate your commentary, it's good to get a personal insight on Grenada.

Old All American11 Feb 2012 3:21 p.m. PST

We'll have to agree to disagree about Central America in the 80s; you are right that beyond a certain point the discussion becomes political. I will say that I don't know how monolithic the communist "conspiracy" was as there were numerous factors involved in the conflicts down there from the drug trade, leftist revolutionaries, true communists, and just well-meaning people seeking true reform; the Cold War being what it was the Soviets and Cubans were only too willing to use whatever means they could to irritate us;just as we used every opportunity we could to aggravate them. I used to tell my students it was "war by proxy" which was seen as better than the two big boys on the block going at it. No one wins that war.

Thanks for your kind words. Have a great weekend.

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