"Chariots: the sports model" Topic

As I begin to research NKE, I find several items to ponder over.

Some sources have suggested the Egyptian chariots were lighter & faster than any others.

Is this valid? Do your Bronze Age rules cater for this? By what factor are they faster, more manoeuvrable?

Some are made by BMW, some are Vauxhalls, some are, well, Trabants.

The chariot racing rules I've seen/used have the no difference between the chariots as they all assume the same types (four horse vs. two horse) are being used and they focus on the driver (or the horse) rather than the model chariot.

As far as combat between armies, Tactica, if I recall correctly, held the two horse chariot as lighter than a four horse chariot, but I don't recall any difference in speed, only melee combat.

The heavier build of the four horse model I suppose.

I suppose I shall have to go and dig them out tonight, now that you mention it…

Eric

Not a direct answer to your question but Cutting Edge I have heard are just about to release the 28mm NKE chariots.

I cannot give direct references but NKE chariots by chariot design seem to have gone for the faster moving approach to this era of warfare.

The use of chariots came later to Egypt and they seem to have improved upon design making the chariot lighter and giving longer axel to allow better turning.

This is what archaeological evidence suggests a Roman racing chariot looked like..

I tend to the opinion that maximum speed wouldn't have been very relevant during combat. Horse stamina and the way that the weapon system was used with supporting "runners" would be of more significance. Maybe when routing flat-out speed would become an issue :)

The DBA and DBMM rules have have light chariots as cavalry and heavier chariots as knights. The cavalry more faster than the knights, the knights hit other mounted a bit harder, they both hit infantry the same.

Modern "Chariot". Maine Harness Racing. Still popular here.

Not true. If it was in Maine, sheep would be pulling the cart…

Eric

One of the main sources on the use of war chariots by egyptian are the ramesseum reliefs on the battle of Khadesh.
Here the egyptian chariots are depicted with axle on the rear part of the cart, giving a very good maneuvre capability.
The bigger Hittite chariots have the axle in the middle, so is mor difficult to turn, but the lighter one appear quite similar to the egyptian ones (a little bit closer).
I think that they didn't rely on impact, but in missile exchange, Littauer also suggests that the bigger cariots with lance armed warriors on top maybe troop transort vehicles.
They are all with 6 spoked wheels, but I saw in Florence, at Museo Archeologico an XVIII dinasty vehicle with 4 spokes per wheel that is really made of nothing (I can't imagine nothing lighter).

From what little I know from Battles B.C. the NKEs werent particularly light, but the Philistine chariots were new technology heavier, as the wheel axle was moved forward to cope.

Just my 2p worth, and thanks to Discovery!!!! :o)

Drat, just seen that abikapi has made the same point! Same TV programme I wonder????!!! :o)

We are lucky with Egyptian chariots, because we have acheological evidence of different examlples.

Here the first concrete chariot from a XVIII dinasty tomb near Thebes (4 spoke wheel), from Florence museum.

Here Tuthankamun (6 spoke Wheel), it seems the ones represented on Ramses II reliefs.

They look incredibly fragile and it is really hard to imagine how that should be an impact weapon – even against not-exactly-well-armoured bronze age troops.

Egyptian chariots are a lightweight design. Horses pulling a light load weight can go faster and/or longer before fatiguing. (It is not designed as an impact weapon and not intended for any sort of armoured over-run assault!)

I play DBA and BBDBA which does not cater to the level of detail of minor speed/endurance differences. In DBA there are just light chariots, heavy chariots, and scythed chariots.

They do look fragile indeed. At least the "combat" ones have a rail, though … that racing model looks like a surfboard on wheels pulled by horses. Yikes.

Doug

I'm not a great fan of the 'impact' school of chariots, but remember that what the (largely untrained?) infantry see are their better armed lords and masters directing several pairs of horses at them after having shot from probably a greater distance than the infantry can effectively reply. If the infantry break, it's pursuit time, if not, retire, shoot again and repeat…

advocate: Agree very much, but that sounds more likt light (or semi-light) cavalry to me.

They are pretty much the same. Most early horses were too small for combat riding, but in teams could pull chariots. As feeding (oats) and breeding improved, cavalry supplanted chariots.

Can we be so sure about this?
1) Cavalry and chariots co-existed for quite some time (for some 500 years in China!). It seems questionable thus whether cavalry would supplant chariots just for the reason of its existence. Actual positives might have been outbalanced by negatives. Generally people were not stupid and they saw some reason to stick to chariots.
2) I do not believe that there is a clear-cut demarcation line from which on you can mount a horse and no longer are restricted to chariot use – genetics do not work like that. So there must be a much more gradual change. Also feeding would not explain much, as steppe armies relied on grass-fed horses way into the 19th century (I believe, correct me if that is wrong.)
3) Change to cavalry seems to go with social change, ie. change to a more advanced form of slave-holder society, also one in which feudalist elements become stronger and in which labour is used with more discrimination.

The last point is probably too complex to be of much value here, but the first two points should be rather relevant.

How many hands high would the horses pulling those chariots be?

I agree with You hwarang, and the use of cavalry alone, was very gradual, taking several centuries.

The rich society baset on 'Great Kings' that was able to mantain with its palaces thousand of cariots, was almost completely destroyed from Micene until the gates of Egypt.

Regarding horses dimension, what about Mongols with their grass fed-horses gaining power over Asia in the Middle Age?

The Mongols still ride what to Western eyes look very small horses.

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