"IR19 WIP - and some SYW neophyte questions" Topic

I have (nearly) finished the first 6 figures of IR19 for my SYW project. Painting them has thrown up a lot more questions that I can't seem to find the answers to on Kronsokaf, or in the sources I have at home (basically, the Ospreys, Mollo and the C18th Press reprint of Greenwood and Ball), so I am hoping that the brilliance of the TMP hive mind will be able to help.

1. Sword knots. Yes, I know I'm being *!%&£ retentive, but I want to know. Where am I going to find out?

2. Has anyone got any links to museum (or other) photos of musket slings, or a decent print where they are clearly visible. I don't know why but I just can't get my head around bright red slings.

3. Was the cartouche plate always in brass (as per Greenwood) or did it vary according to regiment button "colour"? Basically, is this picture an anomaly?

4. What source(s) would people recommend me getting hold of so I don't have to keep annoying TMP with newbie questions? The Partizan Press book? The Pengel & Hurts (which I hope are not as badly organised as the Russian & Austrian ones)? Is Dorn & Engelmann worth splashing out all that cash on?

5. How do people recommend basing a 24 figure regiment on 4 bases, with regard to positioning of command figures? Loading the ensigns, musicians, officer and sergeant all on 1 base seems horribly unbalanced to me.

Finally, here's a pic of what I have done so far. Frederick pointed out that my test paint was too light (thank you, sir), so I hope this blue is better, and my thanks also to Cardinal Hawkwood for pointing out before that what I had erroneously painted in red was not what I thought it was – it was a brass belt buckle.

The rest can be found on my blog here:
link

You lost me at sword knots.

Jaz
6sided.net – We Tweet Your Blog Posts – Publicity Built In!

Chris,
1) The sword knot breaks down into 5 elements, each of which can be a different colour which is why most sources don't show it. Engelmann shows it as grey/red on a white strap. So on the Foundry figure give it a white strap, a red 'line' and then a grey toggle. All have a specific German name but I have forgotten them!
2) I paint my musket slings 'brick' red – for what it is worth.
3) The badge on the cartridge pouch was always brass as far as I know.
4) I'd buy Dorn and Engelmann for the information on sword knots alone as it seems to be important to you. But be careful about shades of yellow trousers as I'm not sure these are always correct.
5) Basing is a problem which is why I always do odd numbers of bases as this allows flags to go dead centre. (I do 20 figures battalions – 5 bases of 4). If you want to do 6s just try to get the flags as close to the centre as possible.
Your painting, by the way, is great. The lace though should be white with a red line through it.
Nigel
nigbilpainter.blogspot.com

Prussian sword knots, and drum rims , are an enigma wrapped up in a mystery etc
slings are bright red????, actually they are Russian leather, try terracoota by GW over dark brown..birght red…as if..
brass
do yourself a favour and go here and buy these…
link
At times Nigel is a little too self effacing for his own good. a bit of Australian brashness may work wonders .
basing …
flags in the centre, 2nd rank and drummers should be behind the flags..well the Houtbois and the drummers should be behind the flags

I do 20 figure Brigades , those above were done for someone else..



and if you are a bit bored you can trawl through my blog..
link

my pardon Chris..I see I should have read all your post before I began responding .good work by the way..you have the knack, though ,moustaches were often blackened

that picture was painted 100 years after the event ..and depicts the famous once only battlefield experience of I battn IR.15, the Prussian Guard..their uniform is not really at all standard, that said I think their cartridge box ornaments were brass..very highly polished..
and Pengel and Hurt is a total nightmare..

IIRC each of the five companies in a Prussian musketeer battalion had its own color sword knot. I just paint them all white.

Put your flags, drummer and an officer all on one stand and call it your command stand. Four stands isn't as symmetrical as five stands (color party stand in the middle flanked by two stands on each side), so maybe put one NCO at the end of two of your stands (one on the far right stand and one on the far left stand.

Use a red-brown for the musket sling and the sword scabbard.

The Guards might have had silver cartouches, but I'd have to look that up.

The best source, available, is the Bleckwenn box of four booklets, paperback.

As DAF said, the sword knots served as company distinctives. Each having a different colour code. It should have been 12 total for a regiments 12 companies. I believe it worked for the entire regt. rather then bataillon wise. No idea what system was used. White should have been the senior chefs company, etc, etc. ?!?. I think Bleckwenn book has a sample illustration of the coding for a regt of cuirassiers. Will need to look it up. Am at work right now. Later.
Catrouches for the Guards were real sterling silver made of course. Most others had brass.

Thank you all very much for the help.

The musket sling is as I thought, what I used was terracotta and a red wash, so I'm glad I wasn't too far off with that – there are a LOT of bright red slings on the net… The lace on Kronoskaf looks orangey, and I thought it would be better to do it that way, but now I have my hands on some Winsor & Newton brushes, I may repaint white and try the orange zigzag line.

I'll try out a few arrangements of figures. I won't have room to put flags in the second rank and drummer/hautbois behind them – but I will stick them all in the back rank. I'll just have to see what looks right to me.

Looks like the Dorn will have to be purchased, but I am now intrigued by Bleckwenn. So far I have found what I think is it on Amazon for the bargain price of £666.00 GBP link and considerably cheaper from some German booksellers. Is there an English language version (or French) – my German is virtually non-existent?

Great blogs, Nigel and Cardinal, which I am now following.

From Pengel & Hurt "Prussian Flags of the 7YW'

The sword knots were colour coded, possibly by company.
The parts were called: stangel-schlebe-kranz-tassel.
IR19 had the following colours for each part:
1) red-blue-red-blue
2) red-grey-red-grey
3) blue-white-blue-red
4) grey-white-grey-red
These supposedly represent 4 different companies.

G'day, Chris.

This is the one you need: link . A bit cheaper than 666 quid, too.

Nice work on the figure, too.

Cheers.

Dal.

Thank you again. This is what makes TMP the great resource it is: not only the fantastic knowledge base but also the willingness to share. Much appreciated.

I can't read German either, but it is easy to understand the names of the battles that each regiment fought in during the WAS and the SYW, and the names of the inhabers. There is sometimes a very short history of the regiment too. The real value of Bleckwenn is that it has color plates for every regiment showing the officer, NCO, musician (in some cases) and the musketeer uniform. Also includes some drawings from the Menzel plates for a few regiments. I use this mainly as a painting guide for Prussian regiments.

It is only available in German. Try the Berlin Zinnfiguren store for a new copy of the boxed set. Much cheaper than the rediculous price that you listed above. Heck, I'd sell you my copy for GBP500!

Wow, the bug strikes again. I tried to edit my original response and when I hit "submit" it put a completely different message on the board. So I deleted it and pasted my original reply.

I've been after the colors of the knots for a while now, myself. As I have not been able to locate anything reliable I have decided to use the WWI system for the German Army.
There is a chart here:
link

Another question for the group, What number was the Grenadier Company? I see the organization for a 7YW Prussian Regiment as 2 battalions. Each made up of 5 administrative companies, that formed 4 field companies and a grenadier company. Where the Grenadiers No. 1 company or No.6 company?

Dal
Please contact me as I am almost completed my book on the Prussian Musketeers of the WOS and 7YW.

Comments and corrections would be helpful. I have so far drawn 120+ flags. Just a few more to do.
Stephen

The Grenadiers were separated during war and were in the seven years war combined with IR25 also of the Brandenburg Inspection.

Dorn and Engelmann have the post 1763 uniform and does not shows red ziz-zag lace for the other ranks which is in error. It was orange up to 1763.

The woollen sword knot [Säbeltroddel] was normally wound around the grip and knuckle-bow. NCOs and musicians had the black and white NCO sword knot. The Leib (1st) company of I Bn had a white sword Knot. The remaining 2nd-10th companies and the two grenadier companies had different coloured sword knots chosen by their Chef. It was not until 1788 that the colour of the sword knot was regulated.

I could post an extract from my book on IR19 if you wish.
Stephen

An extract from your book would be very kind and extremely helpful. And if it is going to be a complete source in English I will probably have to invest in it when it comes out. Do you have a target date for publication?

Dear Chris
The target was April 2012 but I have now a full time job 300 miles away that starts Tuesday.

Realistically it will be July 2012. It is the last 5% of a book that takes the time.

Stephen

Dear Chris
Here is an extract of the draft for IR19. As you realise it is work in progress and I still have the 1763 flag to do for this.
link

In the chapter on the flags there will be the M1713 flags that were still used for most of the War of Austrian Succession.

The grenadier hats will be volume 2. Comments and corrections are welcome.

Stephen

Thank you very much, Stephen, that is absolutely fantastic! Can I presume every regiment will be given the same treatment? If so, consider me signed up.

Dear Chris
Each regiment will have the same treatment. The exact layout is being sorted out but I think it works. Hence it will be two volumes. The second will deal with the Fusiliers, Grenadiers and Garrison Regiments.

I think the Freikorps etc… is a separate book.
Stephen

Good looking work, will have to pick up a copy, when its out. Thanks for the info on the knots.