"Pz38t Kill Ratio in 1941?" Topic

Is there any hard evidence about the kill ratio of the Pz38t during Operation Barbarossa?

I ask because the Panzer III (and IV) is so often referred to as having much better human factors than the Soviet tanks (3-man turret, much better cupola and other optics, and so forth), but the Pz38t was notably poor in these respects.

7th Panzer Div seemed to manage perfectly well with Pz 38s in 1941, pity poor 6th Panzer with utterly crap Pz 35s!

The also did OK, destroying some 200 Soviet tanks in a couple of days at Rassienie, even if they did use 100mm K18s firing over open sights to knock out the KVs.

In 1941 the Germans were still mainly using their Panzerjaegers to destroy enemy armour, tanks were primarily for crunching infantry, guns and HQs, for which the Pz 38 was more than adequate. Even in tank battles, the panzerwaffe was at the peak of its experience and training.

Even with poor turret layouts, Pz 35/38s performed fine with German trained crews, just like their mates in even worse Panzer IIs. Training/doctrine trumps technology most times.

If I can be bothered I'll do some research on 6th Panzer Divs accumulated tank kills/losses in 1941.

The German's Hungarian allies also operated the 38(t) on the Russian front with considerable success until the Soviets began fielding the T-34/76 in ever-increasing numbers.

I'm specifically interested in 8th Panzer Div, and the battle of Sol'tsy (or wherever that mark goes). I'm afraid I don't have any references and I don't even know where to look!

Thanks, Martin!

One advantage that I recall was that the Czech tanks had radios. Makes quite a bit of difference.

Also (according to Wiki, I don't have my AFV Profile to hand), the Germans redesigned/rebuilt the turret to get in a third crewman. Wiki states that existing 38ts were retrofitted with it as well.

The 35t article states that it's original one man turret was redone to add a second crewman.

"I'm specifically interested in 8th Panzer Div, and the battle of Sol'tsy (or wherever that mark goes)."

Ah, I usually use the Anglicised 'Zoltsy' (terrible, I know). I've actually run that a couple of times at an operational level.

Veteran German panzers in average equipment vs Green Soviets in equipment ranging from good to awful. Green Sovs in awful equipment don't stand much chance against veterans in average stuff.

IIRC I rated the understrength 8th Panzer Regt (80 operational) at approx twice the combat effectiveness of Soviet tank regiments (at around 120 vehicles operational each), which generated a 4:1 kill ratio at a tactical level.

The main problem is they have to fight 12 Rifle and three tank and mechanised divisions! At least the rifle divs are reduced strength, which helps:)

One German win (SS Totenkopf riding to the rescue), and one utter annihiliation of 56th PzKp and an end to Mansteins career.

"Wow, that must have been pretty camped"

Maybe they had a maximum height restriction for crewmen?

Also (according to Wiki, I don't have my AFV Profile to hand), the Germans redesigned/rebuilt the turret to get in a third crewman. Wiki states that existing 38ts were retrofitted with it as well.

I think that there's a misunderstanding based on a badly-written Wiki entry. It reads:

In German service, a loader position was added to the turret by reducing ammunition capacity by 18 rounds. All future Panzer 38(t) tanks were rebuilt according to this specification and those already in service were modified accordingly. The commander had to aim and fire the main gun.

This implies that the turret was originally one man (no loader), but was redesigned as two-man (loader plus commander/gunner).

This photo is of a 38(t) turret mounted on an armored train

but you can see that it's pretty well physically impossible to cram both a separate gunner and loader in there, given the commander's position.

Here's the inside of a turret:

Full page of restoration photos: link

This shows the interior hull rear and the two seats for the turret crew, shot from the bottom front of the turret:

"11" and "13" are seats mounted to the turret to rotate with it. Whatever "12" is, it's mounted on the rear bulkhead of the fighting compartment, so it's not a seat that could rotate with the turret.
From link

Remember, the turret ring is less 1.5 meters across! It's a tight squeeze indeed.

By the way, if you want a truly insane model kit, this is it: link

Ah, I usually use the Anglicised 'Zoltsy' (terrible, I know).

Germanicized, actually. It starts with a Cyrillic "C," so it transliterates as an "s." Most English sources render it that way.

IIRC I rated the understrength 8th Panzer Regt (80 operational) at approx twice the combat effectiveness of Soviet tank regiments (at around 120 vehicles operational each), which generated a 4:1 kill ratio at a tactical level.

The main problem is they have to fight 12 Rifle and three tank and mechanised divisions! At least the rifle divs are reduced strength, which helps:)

These strengths for the Soviets are way off. Vance Von Borries did primary source research for Roads to Leningrad. Most the Soviet tank units were drastically understrength. Soviet divisions involved were:

70th
3rd Tank
202nd
21st Tank
183rd
237th
180th

emckinney,

Great photos. Thanks for that.

OK, I figured out the source of the confusion. It was the Pz 35t that had a loader crammed into the turret. However, that took it from a one-man turret to only a two-man turret.

From "The 6th Panzer Division 1937-1945" (Osprey Vanguard 28) by Oberst a.D. Helmut Ritgen

… this fine and reliable off spring of the Vickers 6-ton tank was designed as an infantry support vehicle with a three-man crew. The OC 11th Panzer Regiment ordered that it should be manned by four men, adding a loader (without seat or observation ports); German radios were also fitted.

"Most the Soviet tank units were drastically understrength. Soviet divisions involved were:"

Sure, I know they were understrength.

I included all the divisions holding the front as far as the Luga road as well as the 27th Army assault groups, so the division counts are probably different to the boardgame.