"Fiefdoms of Gondor" Topic

So since I've seen the recent trailer for the Hobbit and finding my GW LOTR miniatures I feel the urge to create a Gondorian army. What I'm wondering is what type of military do the fiefdoms of Gondor have? I realize Dol Amroth have knights but what do the others have? Such as army composition and equipment? Unless of course there isn't any information on such things.

Thanks very much!

Only what you can glean out of the GW LoTR books (and there is quite a bit in there). Otherwise your best option are the old Iron Crown Enterprises books for the Middle Earth Role-playing game which were usually quite extensive on the background information.

In The Return of the King (book, not film), Pippin watches the arrival of the forces from the various vassal regions of Gondor, which includes a variety of different troop types. I refer you to the text for the details, but there is certainly a greater level of diversity than depicted in the films.

I haven't read the Two Towers or the Return of the King. I should really get on that, I was about 10 when I read The Fellowship. I'll take a look at the Role Playing game, maybe even get a few friends interested at the same time. Thanks a lot for your help!

You read one without the others?

As Parzival say's there is a list of the forces (and heroes) as they arrive. If you google Der Kriegspieler's or go to the Stuff of Legends site and look under Custom Cast or Heritage USA there should be a listing. IIRC they had many, if not all of the trrops listed.

IMO, Peter Jackson missed a golden opportunity when he ignored these heroes in last movie. Instead we got drek…

IMO, Peter Jackson missed a golden opportunity when he ignored these heroes in last movie. Instead we got drek…

I know I'm in the minority, but I think the whole movie trilogy was drek. You have to wonder if P Jackson read more than the first book, if even that.

This is from memory but there but as Heisler says there is some extrapolations which can be made from the march into Minas Tirith in the Lord of the Rings. Some which I remember (besides the knights of Dol Amroth) are:

* Forlong the Fat and his 200 men from Lossarnach. He was not Dunedain but he and his troops were well armed.

*Hirluin the Fair and 300 well armed archers from Pinnath Gelin (Green Hills)

GW wandered down this path for a little while. You can see Forlong and Angbor here:

link

and if you poke around a little you can see the figures they made in support.

Only slightly Off Topic, there's a complete War of the Ring conversion for the game "Mount and Blade" PC game (first person medieval combat and campaign), and it includes all the vassals of Gondor on its map.

Awesome game, I like it more than the Lord of the Rings Online game. It's a straight up war game and as a player you can start off as either Good or Evil and advance from a nobody to a lord with your own warparty, engage in sieges and missions, trade, etc. It doesn't include anything west of the Misty Mountains, just the WOTR Theatre of War from the Grey Mtns/Erebor to Southern Gondor.

Most of the locations are discoverable -- you can walk around the streets of Minas Tirith, visit Lothlorien, go into Erebor, Edoras and more. As part of Sauron's forces you can go into Moria, Dol Gurdur, etc. You can take many roles, -- being a Rohrrim is fun, but it's also fun to be a Warg Rider -- Wargs are tough!!

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. Btw, make sure if you get the game you get the "Mount & Blade" and get on v1.011. NOT the newer releases of Mount & Blade: Warband or Mount & Blade: Fire & Sword (though I've been addicted to the "Warband" Mod "Brytenwalda" which is an amazing full conversion to Dark Ages Britain.)

link

Aidancw:

Duinhir, his sons, and 500 bowmen came from Morthond (Blackroot Vale)
Forlong, 200 "well armed" men from Lossarnach
Angbor and his men (arrived after the Battle of Pelennor)
Dervorin and 300 men from Ringlo Vale
From the Anfalas, the Langstrand far away, a long line of men of many sorts, hunters and herdsmen and men of little villages, scantily equipped save for the household of Golasgil their lord.
100 "fisher folk" from Ethir Anduin

I have a feeling there were more, but that should keep you going for the time being

GW's Forlong – not a great representation as his men are described as short and swarthy, and he is described as "wide of shoulder and of huge girth" and "old and grey bearded".

Never imagined the men of lamedon as "highlanders", but Tolkien isn't clear so I guess it's anyone's decision. Don't know why they have a leader though as Tolkien is clear that they were a few grim hillman "without a captain".

FABET01 – you are not alone. Fellowship is the only film I think has lasting merit.

Duinhir, his sons, and 500 bowmen came from Morthond (Blackroot Vale)
Forlong, 200 "well armed" men from Lossarnach
Angbor and his men (arrived after the Battle of Pelennor)
Dervorin and 300 men from Ringlo Vale
From the Anfalas, the Langstrand far away, a long line of men of many sorts, hunters and herdsmen and men of little villages, scantily equipped save for the household of Golasgil their lord.
100 "fisher folk" from Ethir Anduin

So what figures and color schemes are you sing to represent these troops?

wow what a long list of help. SBminisguy I've been addicted to Mount and Blade Warband for about two years now, I believe
they are also making a mod for Warband.

Thank you Brummie Lad for the list.

nevinsrip thank you as well for the list, I don't know what colours I'm going to be using but I'll be getting more thoughts together this long weekend.

I can't thank you guys enough, you're all a big help and I'll be taking all your considerations into asset.

GW makes"

"Duinhir, his sons, and 500 bowmen came from Morthond (Blackroot Vale)
Forlong, 200 "well armed" men from Lossarnach
Angbor and his men (arrived after the Battle of Pelennor)"
Halbarad and the Rangers of the North.
Prince Imhrahil and the Swan Knights
You can also use their Arnor troops for a proxy.

GW makes these.

I use Ebob scots for the Clansmen.

I mix and matched Rohan, Gondor, and Arnor for some of the Fiefdoms ala White Dwarf.

In the History of Middle-earth, in either book 4 or book 8 (The Shaping of Middle-earth or The War of the Ring – I can't recall exactly which one), Tolkien describes the actual Fiefs, and the Fiefs themselves do not correspond to the troops who came in.

He lists the Fiefs as being:

• Anoríen: Seat at Minas Anor/Tirith
• Anfalas: No seat listed (although the Troops from Pinnath Gelin, listed in the Return of the King during the Levy of the Fiefs are from here. Tolkien said that this is the least populated part of Gondor Proper¹.
• Belfalas: Seat at Dol Amroth
• Dor-en-Earnil: Seat at Linhir
• Harondor: Seat not listed, but probably either at the crossings of the Poros, where there was likely a city/town (probably city), or at the Crossing of the Harnen
• N. Ithilien: Seat previously at Osgiliath
• S. Ithilien: Seat Previously at Minas Ithil
• Lamedon: Seat at Calembel or Ethring (Probably Calembel). The Men of Morthond Vale may have been from the Fief of Lamedon².
• Lebinnin: Seat at Pelargir³.
• Lossarnach: Seat unknown (if it is a Fief in its own right that is)
• Morthond: Seat unknown (if it is a Fief in its own right that is)
• Tolfalas: Seat Unknown. But there was only a small settlement listed here as managing a few lighthouses (which could also function as signals to the mainland if Corsairs/Pirates were sighted) and a small number of watch-stations to be on the lookout for said Corsairs.

See footnotes for why Angbor is listed as the Lord of Lamedon.

¹ Which is interesting considering that parts of Rhovanion were once part of Gondor. Is this a mis-statement by Tolkien, or does it mean that Rhovanion is more populated than Anfalas?

² The men of Morthond Vale may have been subject of the Lord of Lamedon, Angbor. So the Lord of Morthond Vale, Duinhir, may himself have been a subject of Angbor. But it is also possible that Morthond Vale was just a portion of the Fief of Morthond, which encompassed most of the grasslands surrounding the river valley all the way to the coast (or very near it). Morthond was supposed to be a very populous region of Gondor, yet Tolkien listed no towns or cities in it (Tolkien's pastoral ideology tended to blind him to realities of anthropology or sociology, which would make most of the "towns" listed by Tolkien in Gondor into actual "cities" by the measure that we use for defining ancient and medieval habitations in Europe).

And, as for why the men of Lamedon are listed as "…without a leader." is because Angbor was down at Pelargir helping to defend it with the larger portion of his men (Lamedon was supposed to be a fairly populous areas of Gondor).

link

³ Again, Lossarnach was probably a domain within Lebinnin. This would make Forlong the Fat a subject of an unnamed Lord of Pelargir, or that Lord himself. The former is more likely to be the case. If Lossarnach is considered to be a "Fief" in its own right, then why are not the other highland regions of Gondor considered a fief in their own rights? Considering that Lossarnach brings a rather sizable force to the Levy of the Fiefs of Gondor, during the War of the Ring, it would seem that Tolkien again left a city/town off the map, located in Lossarnach. Christopher Tolkien touches on all of these points in the History of Middle-earth books (specifically The Shaping of Middle-earth, where he points out the contradiction between populations estimated and the lack of towns or cities).

Oh! And as for experimenting with models for creating troops for the various Fiefs.

I have made two guys using a combination of the "Rangers of Middle-earth" and some heads from Gondor troops (the swordsmen, since I haven't seen that there is an intended use for these yet by their owner, who has given me permission to use a few of them for working on conversions).

I shave off the "peak" from the plastic helmet, and then cut a gap between the wings, so that the helmets look like they are regular rounded helmets, but with wings attached to the sides.

Then I attach these heads to the bodies of the Ranger models, and sculpt in a little mail armor under the cloaks and tabards of these guys, and they look "Gondor-ish."

I have been trying to re-create the same sort of look for some spearmen as well, but with less success – The poses of all of the Rangers of Middle-earth are all too low to the ground, as if everyone is creeping or crouching. Not a good pose for a spearmen. And it doesn't make sense to use them as a sort of irregular set of troops (Medium Infantry in FoG – since I will be using those rules for the most part, and only will have about six individuals of this sort), since the GW "Grey Company" miniatures fill that role even better than the Rangers of Middle-earth.

A better substitute for spearmen is to just use the Gondor Spearmen, and shave off their plate, so that they look like they just have a shirt on, with mail-and-plate limb covering. Then sculpt some mail-armor over the shirt (first cut down the shirt enough so that that the mail doesn't look too bulky). Do the same thing to the helmet as the Bowmen above, and use some of the Old-Style (First Age) shields from the First-Age Gondor plastic swordsmen, and they look suitably "Fief-ish" as well. But I've only been able to do two of these guys so far too.

I've sort of done that same thing to two Gondor Bowmen (shave down the armor, re-sculpt in some mail, etc.) to use for the Morthond Vale archers (instead of the Rangers of Middle-earth conversions, which I think would be better suited to the Pinnath Gelin troops – which seem to be more "Irregular," while the Morthond Vale troops seem to be more drilled and organized). But again… Only two done, and no-one around here seems to have any time to do much modification work (very frustrating).

Well I am using BTD Crusade Knights and a few various other makers to round out my Fiefdom figures that GW doesn't make.
BTD has a few nice Axmen to add to the existing GW figures.

I am thinking of using red as my main color for Pelagir. I believe that one of the other Fiefdom Armies was described as clad in green. I used a dark blue for my Arnor troops, as I did not like the GW green. Enough with the green already. You have Elves, Rangers and on and on in green.

Anyone else have color suggestions for particular fiefdoms?

The men of Morthond Vale were dressed in Black and Blue (probably with white trim – as either the seabird that was typical of Gondor, or the White Tree would be in white).

The men of Pinnath Gelin were in green and brown.

I find the color of "red" for Pelargir to be suspect, because it was the Port city of Gondor, and as such would probably have had another shade of blue (Blue and Black were the typical Colors of Gondor's Heraldry, which is vastly under-expressed by Tolkien). It is more likely that Pelargir would have had a sea-green (A sort of blue-green) in place of the Blue, and that would have been combined with Black and White.

The symbol of Pelargir was probably a light-house (instead of a ship, as ancient port-cities were typically represented by Light-houses instead of ships).

Red is such a problematic color for the "Good guys" in Middle-earth because of the association with Morgoth and Sauron (The "red" eye), and all of the bad guys (Red Southron colors, red Easterling colors, and so on) tended to be associated with red.

In Christian Symbolism, Red is typically associated with demonic or diabolic forces (associated with the devil). Only when red is used as wine, roses, or hearts (or a SINGLE drop of blood, indicating the tears of blood that Jesus cried) is it not associated with evil.

And, Tolkien being Tolkien, he would probably have been pretty steeped in Catholic symbolism, which would have led him to steer clear of using Red for either Arnor or Gondor. Browns and Greens were already problematic enough (as some Catholic philosophy has nature as an evil – Tolkien got around this by using Aquinas' view of nature as being perfect, yet corrupted because of the fall, and by associating an angelic force – the Elves – with nature, thus purifying it).

Now, Yellow is open as a possible color, or Orange (if it is a yellow-orange), for Pelargir, as the Light-house could be depicted with either a Yellow Light, or it could be depicted as being gold or bronze (and thus a yellow-ish orange color). That could introduce more variation into Gondor's color palette.

Well, red is used throughout the Catholic church (I am a Catholic, 12 years of Catholic school, in fact). First, as a symbol of Christ's blood (the wine) and again at Christmas time. Stop by any Catholic Church at Christmas and see how red it is. So, I am pretty sure Tolkien would be OK with red.
I got the idea of red from the GW War of the Ring book which shows an army (page 200 something) of Pelagir Swan Knights painted in a red scheme. I liked the look and think that I'll go with it.
Purple is another color used by the Church at Lent. I may use that on one of my units.
Thanks for the tips Alex, but I'm sick of green. After all, it's fantasy, not reality so whatever floats your boat is acceptable. Unlike historicals, there are no surviving uniforms or artwork to be guided by. It's all make believe.

I've seen the GW Pelargir troops painted red.

It just doesn't look right to me.

Gondor is supposed to be about the Sea, the Sky, and the wonder of nature.

Red only occurs in Nature in Times of Menace (blood, which was my point).

I did mention the wine, and the Blood of Christ.

Only Middle-earth contains no Christ figure (although Tolkien hinted that Turin may later have played that role.

I get rather sick of Blue and Green too, for the "Good Guys," but have found ways to break up the monotony with accents in other colors (typically Yellows and Oranges, or Gold and Silver). Red does tend to be a decent accent to Green, but I would still be wary of using it for Pelargir… It seems too much like an "Umbar" color.

Alex, I gather that you live in the UK. Here in the states we have the RED RIVER and the RED SANDS of Zion Park in Utah. There is also the Red Rock natural ampitheater in Colorado. Wait, in fact Colorado means red color in Spanish.

I have seen all of these in person and can vouch for the fact that red occurs in Nature more than you think. The foliage around here is gold and red in the fall and there is plenty of red rocks and stones.

So, red it is for Pelagir. It look good to me, but you can make up your own mind.

Now if I could just make up my mind on the rest of the Fiefdoms.

Red and yellow are the colors of autumn leaves. It's all in the shading…

"100 "fisher folk" from Ethir Anduin"

Hmmm… sounds like the makings of a fun bunch of fantasy coastal riff-raff and cutthroats coming to the aid of their king…

Leland R. Erickson

Red & Yellow are indeed the colors of Autumn (although the "red" is actually an orange).

And I have seen the red-Rock deserts of Utah and Arizona (I have driven that route around 50 times, when I drove between Houston and San Francisco every other month in the years of 2000-2003).

Europe, though, is rather lacking in that sort of Limestone deposited seabeds that have risen to form mountainous territory. Turkey and Asia-Minor have a lot of them, which was the model for Mordor.

Again, the The History of Middle-earth, Book IV: The Shaping of Middle-earth, Tolkien describes the infection of Middle-earth by Melko(r)/Morgoth and how Morgoth perverted creation (Arda Marred), thus tainting the natural world.

The "fire & brimstone" associated with these areas would be akin to their having been tainted by Morgoth, and thus an association with an "Evil" place that had fallen under the Shadow.

I realize that the Ontology of "evil" and "good" in Middle-earth is problematic, but he plainly ascribes "Red" to the enemy when describing the banner of the Serpent Baner of the King of Harad. In other places where he describes "red" it is always in terms of fire&brimstone and in conjunction with an "evil" thing.

It would take a STRONG association with something (from Middle-earth) that was plainly "Good" (and happened to be "red") in order to justify Gondor's association with the color "red" when Harad was so close, and whose colors happened to be red & black. Such an association with have to be powerfully connected to both Gondor, Pelargir, and Númenóre (meaning only from the Elf-Friends, NOT the King's-Men) in order to be an acceptably canon part of their heraldry.

So, what objects, associated with these groups, happen to be "red?"

And Gondor probably didn't have "cutthroats."

It might have a LOT of riff-raff, but it is doubtful they would be "cutthroats."

That was a distinction that Tolkien was pretty strong in making (that even the low-lives of Gondor were remarkably ethical).

Not all references to fire or red are negative in Tolkien's work. Just off the top of my head there is Narya one of the three rings crafted by the eldar. It has a red stone. These are described as being made without the taint of Sauron. If I recall correctly nar means flame or fire or some such and the ring itself helps it's wearer inspire others to resist tyranny and domination. It seems illogical to assume the elves would choose a red stone for one of their rings if red was universally recognised as a symbol of evil.

On the otherhand if you want to reserve red color schemes for forces of evil go for it.

I just came across this thread whilst searching for info on Heraldry: TMP link

Although it's not specifically about Fiefdom colours, it may offer some insight into colours that could be used for the various troops!

I think you need to extrapolate from what was said . Also you need to realise GW is not canon ( and neither is Alex ;P ).
My opinion is any colour is fine . If you look at canonical christian colours they would very often be at odds with the colours that Tolkien used . So I wouldn't weigh that argument very highly . For instance ; Black .
Also it's sometimes useful to look at what isn't said .

ie Duinhir, his sons, and 500 bowmen came from Morthond (Blackroot Vale)
Duinhir could have just bought 500 bowmen . but perhaps the bowmen from morthond were considered superior to elsewhere . So no mention of the other troops is needed . Similar to when in the middle ages mention was made to the number of Cheshire Horsemen , It doesn't preclude cheshire infantry .
( perhaps Welsh would be a better example , they weren't all bowmen )

Equally ,
Forlong, 200 "well armed" men from Lossarnach .Could be construed as huscarls each with a number of fyrd .

I'd suggest a seabird as the symbol of peliger as opposed to a light house , it was a river based port and not coastal . but would perhaps have kept the old numenorean symbol .

Lost my train of thought now , but I think it was do what you like , GW did , So did JRRT .

The Seabird is definitely an option for Pelargir. The Lighthouse was a suggestion because the River at that point was miled wide, and near the delta, meaning that ships would need to be able to navigate at night to specific points before making landfall/port.

Tolkien does make mention of a Seabird for Pelargir (white with black-tipped wings).

Also, Tolkien makes it explicit, in the story Tar-Elmarin The History of Middle-earth, Book XXII: The Peoples of Middle-earth, which makes it clear that there is a difference between the "tainted" black of Morgoth, and the "Black of the pure starlit sky before Morgoth entered into Arda, and of the Black of the star-lit sky that was to be when Arda is healed."

And, yes, I do understand that Narya is set with a Ruby stone (Red, as Rubies also come in Green and Blue).

One would need to differentiate the red of Pelargir from that of the Haradrim.

One way to do this would be to make the Red of Pelargir a deeper, darker, fiery Red much like a Deep Ruby, or a lighter, fierier Red, such as that of a brightly burning flame (i.e. "Purifying flame"). A translucent red might also be a way to go.

Or, a Red that is the border to a Sea-Green field, set with the Sea-Bird of Lighthouse. Or a Red that is the Light/Flame burning in the lighthouse, set in a field of Sea-Green/Blue.

I still think that Gondor is too close to Harad to use Red as part of the Heraldry of a major fief, but it is something that might be justifiable with the right materials to back it up.

And…

About the numbers of men mentioned in the Levy of the Fiefs.

One thing to remember is that these numbers come from the recollection of a provincial Hobbit, who was always in awe of the "Great-Men of Gondor/Westernesse."

As such, he probably did forget to mention the rabble that accompanied the household troops of most of the fiefs, and wasn't paying close enough attention to the accounts given by his (other, provincial Hobbit) friends when they described to him what had happened where they were.

So, it is likely that there were another 1,000 to 3,000 men present at the Battle of Pelennor, and another 3,000 to 5,000 were probably present at Minas Tirith before the troops were divided between the defense of Minas Tirith/Gondor, and the March to the Black Gate.

This is an issue that Christopher Tolkien raises briefly in The History of Middle-earth (in a couple of the volumes), and he raises the issue of troop numbers in relation to his father's (probably very sloppy) estimates of the population of the various parts of Middle-earth (in many of the volumes).

One such instance of this is that the Men of Morthond Vale were just a part of the fief, and that Morthond was supposed to be one of the more populous fiefs.

It is fairly inconceivable that one of the most populous fiefs of Gondor had no heavy infantry (or some form of massed-infantry) among the Household Troops (which are somewhat puzzling). Did Duinhir bring the Household troops, or were those left to defend the Coastline/Pelargir, as were most of the other troops from the SW fiefs?

Or were the bowmen the household troops? This seems somewhat unlikely considering the supposed population of Morthond (of which the Vale is only a part).

The same can be said of the other fiefs. Belfalas and Lebennin being the other highly populated regions of Gondor (being the third and second most populous, respectively). We know that Belfalas had Dol Amroth, a city that was supposed to be almost equal in size to Minas Tirith.

This places the entire population of Gondor at around 1M – 3M. Which means that it should have been able to raise armies equivalent to those of Ancient Rome. And this was supposed to be at a period of extremely low population.

At its height, Gondor probably had a population of 5M – 15M (which is roughly what ancient areas of equal size had as a population). This means that they would have been able to do as Rome had done, and pump out army after army of 10,000 to 30,000 men as long as they did not suffer a long series of Cannae-like losses.

And JRRT didn't exactly "do as he liked."

Reading The History of Middle-earth makes it pretty clear that there were a great many things that he "liked," but rejected based upon the rules under which he operated for his "sub-creation" of Middle-earth.

This might be seen as something of an equivocation, or semantic quibble, but there are more than a few writers who have expressed a similar opinion regarding their work (John Shirley, for instance, who wrote the screenplay for The Crow, has expressed his desire to do something with his worlds that he often has to reject based upon all manner of metrics that would make his "desires" inappropriate for the work in question).

That seems to be part of what makes a lot of great-fiction great: The ability of the writer to subsume their desires to the needs of the story.

Pelargir was many miles from the Anduin delta .

On a standard / battle flag / livery it would be hard to tell if it was "bad black " or " good black "

If they were just the recollections of a provincial hobbit , how would he know where they came from ? Hence my thoughts that only the cream were mentioned ( ie only the best were pointed out to him ) .
Duinhir's bowmen don't need to be household troops , just better bowmen than elsewhere , or perhaps it's important to make note of Duinhir's effort in bringing his best .

Considering that most of the able manpower was already at Minas Tirith serving in the army of Gondor . I don't understand your Rome analogy , As far as I know had Gondor suffered a Cannae like result it would have been over . Fortunately Gondor always split it's forces so never lost more than half it's field army at one time . The other half always returning in time to save the day .

I still think JRRT did what he liked , he just changed his mind a lot .

How far is New Orleans from the Mississippi Delta?

Yet that part of Louisiana s called "The Delta."

The Delta of the Mississipppi is considered to run inland roughly 200 miles from what is marked as the "coast." of Louisiana.

And the Amazon has an even larger delta.

Pelargir was at the confluence of two rivers, and approximately 50 to 75 miles (on the map) to the coast.

If you apply the same rules of geography and topology to the Anduin, as we do to any other river, then Pelargir is in the Delta region.

The Provincial Hobbit did have access to people to ask "OH! Those guys look important. Who are they?"

Is that too difficult to imagine an intelligent person doing?

Most of the available manpower in Gondor wasn't at Minas Tirith. That city just happened to be the largest in Gondor. But in The History of Middle-earth, book IV & book XXII: The Shaping of Middle-earth/The Peoples of Middle-earth it goes into a little more detail about the populations.

At the period of the War of the Ring, a disaster like Cannae would have been fatal.

But Gondor was around for ≈4,000 years prior to the War of the Ring, and during part of that time it fielded multiple armies that were in excess of 30,000 men each.

Even after the disaster with Minardil with the Wainriders, where he and his entire army were wiped out, Gondor was not fatally wounded. It managed to put together another army pretty soon after that and held the Wainriders in Eastern Rhovanion.

And if you think Tolkien "did as he liked" then your reading of The History of Middle-earth missed several very key/important comments by Tolkien with regard to "doing what he liked" (and his bemoaning the fact that he COULDN'T just "do as he'd like" with a great many things).

It saddens me because I love the books but we should remember one very central fact. Gondor never actually existed. Under any definition Pelargir was neither in nor out of the delta region of the Anduin river. There was no Pelagir nor was there an Anduin river. These attempts to divine the "truth" about undisclosed details of the Lord of the Rings mythos are doomed to fail. There is no truth. None of this ever happened. None of these things, places, or people ever existed. We are attempting to extrapolate from another man's fantasy. We can apply all sorts of reasonable notions to fill in the gaps but that doesn't make us right.

People wanting to play games in middle earth should do what feels right to them. Suggestions of ways to interpret information may be helpful but pedantic assertions regarding undisclosed/undocumented areas of middle earth lore seem a bit obsessive to me.

Key comments notwithstanding of course Tolkien did as he liked. With the possible exception of input by an editor (I do not know if Tolkien had one)every word in every manuscript written by Tolkien, was, drum roll please, written by Tolkien. Many artists claim their art or their muse requires them to express themselves a particular way but that is hokum. You never see them giving a cut of the royalty check to their muse. The choices made by Tolkien were made by Tolkien. He was not reporting history. He was not constrained by fact. He made it up. I for one am thankful that he did. I know that if I play a game featuring the black riders they should be dressed in black because he told us so. I don't know and can never know what color undergarment middle class unmarried ladies in Pelagir most probably wear on a first date because he never covered that in his writings. For that vast area of middle earth geography, sociology, economics, etc etc etc that Tolkien kept silent on one guess truly is as good as another.

FRODO LIVES!!!!

HERESY…. excuse me why I cry in the corner….

Lost Pict

I'd suggest learning a little bit more about the Cognitive Processes involved in creation of art or the creative process in general.

While one can equivocate all one wishes around the words "to do what one wishes," ultimately the fact remains that the science shows that artists very often do things that they DO NOT wish to do, due to the demands of the work they are creating.

For instance, in Larry Briskman's Creative product and creative process in science and art he argues that often the needs of the creative process run contrary to the desires of the creator (Artist).

link

Similarly, in From Private Intuitions to Public Symbol Systems: An Examination of the Creative Process in Georg Cantor and Sigmund Freud, Gardner and Nimerovsky discuss how the cosmological assumptions of their topic subjects (Cantor and Freud) drove certain creative decisions that were directly counter to their desires (in fact, this very process drove Cantor completely insane because he was unable to reconcile his creation with his expressed desires).

link

You will need access to either JSTOR, PubMed, or Google Scholar to access the links.

Tolkien also had a Cosmology that he created, and to which he was a slave.

ALL of his stories were written and adhered as closely as was possible to that Cosmology (which is why Pelargir IS a city in the Anduin Delta).

That it doesn't refer to a "Real" place makes not a bit of difference.

The Easter Bunny doesn't exist either, but this doesn't mean that we can claim that the Chocolate eggs that it delivers are actually coal (or worse). Nor can we claim that the Easter Bunny is actually covered with Scales and in reality slaughters children on Easter. There are implicit and explicit rules that govern the Easter Bunny.

And, Tolkien laid out a very elaborate Cosmology (set of rules) by which Middle-earth operates if we are to talk about it in any way that makes sense.

Maybe you'd like to take this up with the Tolkien Professor (currently running a degree program on Tolkien studies). He has several pod-casts where he talks about the various rules that govern Middle-earth.

And while you may not be able to tell what color the undergarmets were that the women of Pelargir wore on there first date, it's pretty ing easy to tell by a direct analogy to the Earth (upon which most of the physical systems of Middle-earth were modeled) that Pelargir is in a River Delta region. The comparison to the underwear is both a strawman and a false equivalence.

Tolkien laid out that Middle-earth WAS this Earth (albeit in a very different space and time), and thus would operate under the rules of the cosmological assumptions he laid out for Middle-earth AND it would operate under the physical laws that constrain our world as well.

But if you wish to play "games" with semantics, and flimsy and flawed analogies about ontology… Go right ahead…. But don't expect anyone else to think that you are talking about "Middle-earth."

I find your post both hilarious and sad. Science has never shown us "that artists very often do things that they DO NOT wish to do, due to the demands of the work they are creating." Theorists have posited such hokum but that doesn't make it so. In fact some of the support you listed explicitly makes this point. Briskman "argues" his thesis. This is an acknowledgement that there are those who disagree with him and have to be persuaded.

I was unaware of the sad case of Mr. Cantor. However a brief period of research seems to indicate his mental health problems stem from probable bipolar disorder and depression. These inherent disorders appear to have been exacerbated by the hostility of others to his work not inner turmoil over his work itself.

Tolkien created the cosmology. He dictated its concepts. It did not dictate to him. If his writing is consistent to his creation it is because he chose it to be. His writings did go through different versions and evolve. There is nothing about his fictional creation that required a city to exist on a river delta and be named Pelagir. The book would have turned out fine if it had been a town on a lake called Pelagin. These aren't semantic games. Tolkien chose to tell a particular story. He was not forced to.

You accuse me of flawed analogies but trot out that odd one about the Easter Bunny. The huge obvious difference is of course that the Easter Bunny is a shared concept. It has been refined over more than 100 years by literally millions of people. There is a common understanding (but still evolving) of the Easter Bunny. Tolkien's world is not a joint excersise. It is his. He created it. He imposed the rules. If he were alive today he could make any claim he wished about middle earth and it would be correct because middle earth is not a shared/joint concept. I for one have high hopes that a seance soon reveals just what color underclothes the women of Pelagir would have worn had they or their city or their nation or their world actually existed.

I wonder how our soon to be Chinese Overlords will react to Tolkien Studies Degrees.

Alex, Perhaps you are taking this a bit more seriously than you should. After all, JRRT wrote the stories so that they would be ENJOYED. Not studied or picked to death or searched over for inconsistencies.
His intention was to entertain people and open their eyes to his MAKE BELIEVE world.
So, don't get caught up in the minutia of it all. It's imagination, not hard and fast rules.
Seriously, if you closed your eyes and imagined what Aragorn looked like in JRRT's head, does Viggio spring to mind?
Middle Earth is what you make of it. Not what some "professor" tells you it is.

Have fun and enjoy it.

1. One thing to remember is that these numbers come from the recollection of a provincial Hobbit, who was always in awe of the "Great-Men of Gondor/Westernesse."

2. The Provincial Hobbit did have access to people to ask "OH! Those guys look important. Who are they?"
Is that too difficult to imagine an intelligent person doing?

Alex , I just wish you'd make your own mind up .

" Most of the available manpower in Gondor wasn't at Minas Tirith "

Where was it then ?

Not with Dain ,not with the lakemen , not with anyone else , Gondor didn't lend it's strength to anyone . Maybe that was a lesson Tolkien meant to teach .

Middle-earth is a lot more than just "what we make of it."

It is a body of literary work, just like the works of Hemmingway, Virgil, Homer, Dostoyevsky, William Gibson, and the various Liturgical texts (which most Anthropologists consider to be just as much a "work of fiction" as any other work of myth).

Thus, it can be studied, and based upon the rules that Tolkien laid out, we can make inferences that are going to be pretty much correct (this can be tested by giving someone those rules, and then asking them to describe the world, and seeing how closely it matches with the written works, both published and unpublished, of Tolkien – or is no one aware of the field of Psychology and the science behind it?).

Tolkien is dead, so we have to work with what he left behind. He describes the area at the mouth of the Anduin as a Delta region, and places Pelargir within it (in the text I mentioned). That pretty much seals the fate of Pelargir's location and the geography of the land around it (Linhir is also in a delta).

The population of Gondor was in Gondor, of which Minas Tirith was only ONE city.

This is like saying:

Which is more likely, that most of the population of Greece lies in Athens, or in all of Greece?

Athens is just one city in Greece. It is a large city, but the remaining country-side has a much larger population combined than Athens, and that doesn't even count the other cities.

Thus, the Population of Gondor is more likely to lie in all of Gondor than it is to lie in JUST Minas Tirith (seeing as Minas Tirith was just one city out of several – both listed and unlisted – in Gondor). That isn't exactly rocket science.

Minas Tirith ≠ Gondor.

Minas Tirith + the Population of Anorien (of which Minas Tirith was just a part) + the other cities of + the other Fiefs of Gondor = Gondor.

So, given that Minas Tirith is just one location in a nation, it isn't likely that all of its population was located there.

What would be the point of having unpopulated fiefs if that was the case?

Oh, and

1. One thing to remember is that these numbers come from the recollection of a provincial Hobbit, who was always in awe of the "Great-Men of Gondor/Westernesse."

2. The Provincial Hobbit did have access to people to ask "OH! Those guys look important. Who are they?"
Is that too difficult to imagine an intelligent person doing?

Alex , I just wish you'd make your own mind up .

These two things are the exact same thing.

The "Provincial Hobbit" would only be asking about the men who he though looked important.

Notice:

1. "…in awe of the 'Great-Men of Gondor/Westernesse.'"

2. "… Those guys look important. …"

These two cases are the exact same thing. The men that he (Pippin in this case) recognized as being "important" or "Great-Men of Gondor/Westernesse" were exactly the same men. Important men, in his mind, WERE Great-Men of Gondor/Westernesse.

This doesn't mean that the two are an identity in fact, only that they are an identity in the minds of either Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Pippin, or Merry.

Just because a Hobbit noticed a collection of "Great-Men of Gondor/Westernesse," or "Important Men" didn't mean that he would automatically know who they were.

Thus, he would need to ask who they were.

Technically, he would need to ask who all of them were, but even if he did ask who all of them were, this doesn't mean that he would equate all of them to being either important or equate them to being "Great-Men."

Now, what is it about this that implies that there is any confusion on my part about this distinction?

Blimey

Slimey

Sorry Alex, it's still all make believe. No matter what arguements you have, it comes down to the fact that it's still all make believe.
And that's that!

Alex ,
I think you've missed a a bit . I made the point that the army of Gondor would have already have been made up various levy's from the fiefs . I really do have no idea what you are on about .
The two "hobbit" examples are not the same . In the first you poo pooh the numbers as they are given by a bumpkin , in the second you give credence to the numbers by saying of course he had advice .
Your pedantic technical bollox following that is understandably untenable .
Tolkien places Pelagir ABOVE the delta .
I don't recall ever implying confusion .

No… I didn't "give credence to the numbers" in the second example.

I stated that the Hobbit would have to have some way to account for the numbers that we are given, but that those numbers don't reflect the reality of what happened, because, even if the Hobbit has to ask, he's only going to ask about the troops that catch his provincial little eye.

The numbers can be right about what they are recording (The troops that Perigrine Asked about), yet still be wrong, because there were probably hundreds, to thousands of troops he DIDN'T ask about.

Alex why is the hobbit only going to ask about the troops that catch his provincial little eye? He has been on a quest to destroy Sauron's ring. He has survived attacks from Sauron's minions. He has participated in the sack of Isengard and has seen first hand what can happen to folks defending a rather imposing fortress. He's also heard about the horrible toll taken by the defenders at Helm's deep and heard about how last second reinforcements saved the day. He now finds himself trapped in a city about to be besieged by Sauron's vast hosts. If I was foolish enough not to flee, I sure as tootin would be asking anyone I could just what our military assets were. Whether I could see them or not!

*******Just kidding Alex. NONE of this ever really happened so your conjecture is just as good as mine.

Ever hear of Postmoderism?

This is essentially what you are using.

You are making the claim that all claims are equally Valid.

They are clearly NOT all equally Valid.

Someone who claimed that a Crack Legion of Party Clowns were fighting for the Witch King at Pelennor… That "conjecture" isn't as good as good as any other.

I thought that I would return to this with some facts about River Systems, and how they relate to the coast, and delta/estuaries they create.

The Anduin is the Largest River in Middle-earth. The maps of Middle-earth puts its lengths at about 1,400 miles long (The Atlas of Middle-earth places it at about 1,388 miles long).

The Amazon river, in South America's Brazil is 4,000 miles long.

So the Anduin is roughly 1/2 the size of the Amazon, putting it on Par with the Nile and Mississippi Rivers.

The Nile Delta is around 150 miles wide, and 100 miles deep.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile_Delta

The Mississippe Delta is around the same size as the Nile Delta, but because it doesn't have the currents pushing back against the river, or cutting across the mouth (as does the Nile and the Amazon) the Mississippi River's Delta extends much further out into the sea than either the Amazon or the Nile. The inland estuary is approximately the same size as the Nile Delta, but the Mississippi river Channel extends MUCH FURTHER out to sea (something around 175 miles).

This makes the model for the Anduin more similar to the Nile than the Mississippi.

Both New Orleans and Cairo are further from the Mouths of their rivers than is Pelargir, but both New Orleans and Cairo are said to be in the Delta Region's Alluvial Plain.

Considering that Tolkien made it explicitly clear that the physical laws of Middle-earth were the same as those of our Earth (save for the existence of the magical properties used upon occasion), this would mean that the Anduin would have a similarly sized Delta Region and Alluvial Plain as either the Nile (more similar) or the Mississippi (less similar).

This should allow us to make contributions to the various projects to document the Geography and Atlas of Middle-earth (As Karen Wynn Fonstad has done), and to provide realistic and reasonable justifications for the contributions that are made.

As opposed to just adding , like Party Clowns fighting for the Witch-King. Not all guesses, ideas, or attributions are equal.

Ahh the gift that keeps on giving. All claims are not equally valid in the real world. It is possible to know about "actualities". Actualities can include non corpreal things such as thought. For instance anything Prof. Tolkien actually thought about Middle Earth would be its "actuality". You on the otherhand are trying to determine Middle Earths actuality by reference to knowns from our real world. You can at times determine unknown realworld actualities by referencing real world knowns. That is true because "real" things are controlled by natural laws. Imaginary things are not. Please sit down before you read this next sentence….Middle Earth is an imaginary place. What we know of it springs from the mind of Prof. Tolkien. He was its creator and only authority. He is gone. Absent the discovery of some hidden trove of info from the Prof.(and I bet Christopher is checking under the couch cushions as I write this)we will never get any further authoritative information on Middle Earth. Feel free to believe your insights and speculations can unravel the unreported mysteries of the Professor's fantasy. That will be your fantasy. I also fail to see how a group of Party Clowns could be formed into an elite military unit. Wouldn't that be against their nature? Why would they fight for the Witch King? Are they into Metal? Wouldn't it make more sense to envision stoners fighting for the free peoples and the pipeweed fields of the Shire? I'm sure thats how the Prof originally envisioned Bombadil.

So…

Then Even Christopher Tolkien is forbidden from making suppositions about Middle-earth based upon physical descriptions of the "imaginary" world (And, , no one is saying that it isn't "imaginary")?

So, we cannot create images of Middle-earth based upon the descriptions?

If Tolkien says that something is constructed out of wood, are we then to think that the wood is plaid?

Or if we says that there is a river, we would be just as correct to think that it flowed with Maple Syrup as it did with Water.

The fact that Tolkien is dead is IRRELEVANT to examining the world in the context of what we do know about it.

We know that the Anduin is a River.

We know that it was the biggest River in Middle-earth.

We know that River's form Deltas.

That's a pretty freaking straightforward Syllogism. It isn't a "Mystery" that the Anduin would have a Delta region. And that Tolkien himself didn't mention it (although his son does) is beside the point.

He also never mentions that the Birds in Mirkwood have Bird's Nests.

Does this mean that we are wrong to assume that the birds in Mirkwood built nests?

How about copper kettles?

Tolkien never mentions Copper Kettles. In fact, he never mentions Copper at all.

Does this mean that any suggestion that either copper exists, or that someone might make Copper Kettles is a "Wild Speculation?"

That the Anduin would have a Delta Region isn't a "fantasy" any more than Karen Wynn Fonstad's "Atlas of Middle-earth is a "fantasy" when it comes to describing the world. She draws legitimate conclusions about the world based upon what was said about it and what we know about those things as we observe them around us. She even goes on to infer the geology (rocks and bedrock substrate) that makes up most of Middle-earth based upon Tolkien's writings (with the help of his son).

I've noticed a trend on this whole board that I find incredibly disturbing: That there seem to be people who have failures of understanding that are so great, that they seem to accept anything, regardless of applicability to a topic or not. It's as if the idea of Logic is so alien to them that it just doesn't exist, which is a problem if they hope to expect any consistency to the world.

You seem to also be a complete failure at understanding the Party Clown Analogy.

The attempt at mocking the assertion only makes the lack of imagination and understanding all the more clear.

If doesn't matter at all about them, because Party Clowns are something that wouldn't exist in that context at all, if they would exist in Middle-earth at all.

It is an example of a claim that isn't valid; a claim that isn't sound; a claim that has no value.

Does trying to make sense of the world really bother you that much?

I will admit, the resistance to trying to make sense of it bothers me a great deal, because it means that I am talking to people who simply lack the capacity to understand the relevance.

You can ,and I do, do all the things you listed. What you can't do with any authority (but you can still do it for your own purposes) is make the pedantic assertions you have been making about Middle Earth. Example--Gondor wouldn't use red in its military uniforms. Example--Pelagir has to be within the Anduins delta region. Example--There has to be a specific interpretation to Pippin observing the levy come into Minas Tirith because I know how provincial hobbits would act. Example--The population figures you throw around. Yes I understand you have painstaking meticulous methodology you are employing to arrive at your conclusions but but they still boil down to how you envision Middle Earth. Since Middle Earth NEVER existed it is impossible to know how it was when it did exist.