"What are ImagiNations?" Topic

Not that I'm a complete idiot (note, I said not a COMPLETE one) and I think I get the general idea:

"The nation of Turbanistan is ruled by Bomgo, Lord of the Orangutans, (originally known as Reginald Lord Wellingay-Smythe, XLVII Earl of Frogsbury, now known as Kumatmeifya Khan, a Pasha of the far flung Ottostan Empire) lost in the jungle at a young ago and raised by the great orange haired brutes.

"Turbanistan, though a tiny realm (strangely, it fits almost perfectly onto a 4 x 8' table) is one of the wealthiest in the world, being the sole supplier of the invaluable substance juju oil which, in addition to being all the rage in Frenchfurturian pastry dishes, is also the only fuel powerful enough to launch heavier than air ships into the ether.

"Thus, the Pasha must play warily against the Great Powers, any and all of whom would snatch the tiny kingdom given the least chance. He does this by using his realm's great wealth to maintain a powerful and elite mercenary army (which it could never otherwise afford, it has been estimated that fully 50% of Turbanistan's population consists of professional soldiers), as well as his jungle allies, the fearsome Flin'ga-speer tribe, and his personal bodyguard of orangutans.

"However, his fiercest and mot implacable foes are the wily desert riders who serve Katchmeifya Khan, the Pasha's half-brother and most hated enemy, the two having quarrlled over the hand of Lady Jane Larjbubs from an early age.

"Though the life and adventures of the Pasha of Turbanistan are far too many and too unbelievable to delve into here, it is enough to say that, so far, he has kept his enemies at bay through courage, cleverness, sang froid and a blade capable and willing to slay the highest and the lowest of those who threaten the realm."

This is the basic description of the central nation of my present campaign world.

Anyway, is there an ImagiNations website? Is it a club of some sort? I've looked into the earliest TMP posts on it, but I don't see a basic description of what ut's all about.

Here's a few for starters:
emperor-elector.blogspot.com
link
link
link

Someone should create the United Imagi-Nations as a yahoo group, not me though, I'm just an idea guy.

Also, put me down for a baby blue UIN Nuclear Inspector t-shirt.

I guess I get the idea, but is this just a bunch of people making up imaginary countries, or is there any organization to it? Some kind of club, or wargame society that organizes battles or whatever?

or is there any organization to it? Some kind of club, or wargame society that organizes battles or whatever?

Come off it, we're wargamers. That'd be far too organised!!

Balderdash! Wargamers are known for organizing the most innane things, like how many colors have to be painted on your minis, who has to have made them, and whether or not they have to be flocked in order for you to play in their particular tournament! Even the fact that wargamers HAVE tournaments should be an indication of this startling phenomenon!

For me its basically "background" and an excuse to have fun with fancy uniforms so my games are not always "white coats vs blue coats" -- I understand the appeal of strict historical Seven Years War, or whatever, its just not "me."

Imaginations are an offshoot of the Old School Wargaming movement that started around 2005. The fictional countries are largely modelled after the protagonists depicted in Peter Young's "Charge" book and Charles Grant, Sr's "The War Game", both published in the 1970s.

Grant, in particular, developed his two countries, The Grand Duchy of Lorraine and the Vereingten Frei Stadt (or "VFS" for short) forces loosely patterned after the armies of France and Prussia, respectively.

Over time, the two countries developed their own list of leaders and personalities as part of the continuous 18th Century campaign organized by Grant. Thus with the revival of interest in these books, particularly The War Game, people began to create their own 18th Century fictional countries. Along the way, someone coined the term "Imaginations" (or Imaginery/Fictional countries).

Many of these little kingdoms can be found on the Emperor vs Elector blog. New countries pop up all the time. Some thrive, but many others wither away on the vine from neglect as the initial burst of enthusiasm for the project fades away. However, on the whole, there are many interesting Imaginations that are quite active and interesting to follow.

or is there any organization to it? Some kind of club, or wargame society that organizes battles or whatever?

On a wide geographical scale, and involving miniature figurines, I know of nothing such since Tony Bath's 'Hyboria' campaign link (set in the world of Conan the Barbarian, but without magic).
There the roles of 'country ruler' and 'tabletop general' were played by different persons. The 'rulers' were responsible of economical choices, politics, diplomacy, grand strategical decisions and dirty tricks (assassination, blackmailing, smear campaigns, sabotage, spying…). this was done by (real, by then) mail and could involve players from anywhere. While the tabletop battles were fought by Tony's local group, using his armies.

I understand that play by e-mail campaigns are not rare, but battles are not actually played, their outcome decided by a computer-assisted umpire.

The basic difficulty comes from the geographical dispersion of the Imagi-Nation builders in 'The Real World ™'. To play together you have to meet across a table-top, and easily, not too seldom.
An Australian group (Aussies are accustomed to travel incredible distances) tried something similar for the 18th C., but was dogged by bad luck. When the 'direction' of the 1st supporting forum changed, all relevant archives were deleted by the new direction as 'irrelevant'. The group created a new forum, but when their forum provider changed of server, files were lost or scattered among irrelevant folders and directories, subdirectories randomly reaffected to new directories and all links became obsolete many thread not receiving a new url and thus are now inaccessible;… Fragments of threads float here and there link / link / link / link . Small parts of the funny campaign journal survive there: link But the campaign was already coming to a halt: when you can participate to a meeting far away and other troops 'counting as' your army suffer a crushing defeat in your absence, motivation weakens….

So if you browse for instance the blogs using 'Emperor vs Elector' emperor-elector.blogspot.com as a common dazibao for flashnews, you'll see that most 'members' play 'solo' and build (at least) *two* rival Imagi-Nations (you don't want your 'brainchild' torn by a cruel civil war! And if you like equally your 2 creations, you umpire and play their conflict without bias).
Only a few are lucky enough to live close enough to meet regularly: Der Alt Fritz and Bill Protz for their 'Not-SYW' Campaigns in Germania (and the parallel underground duel between Lady Pettygree and Milady de Winter), 'Bluebear' Jeff and two other members living in the same Canadian province…

Thus basically each one plays his (no 'her' as yet, alas!) campaign independently. Interactions between members are of two main kinds:
- proxy battles: when a member lacks the troops, or time, or impartiality to play an essential battle, this is fought by a 'neutral' other member (using his own minis, rules, terrain);
- 'visits': currently a Princess is traveling from Austria to Versailles. Her 'creator' asked for Imagi-Nations of the group she would likely cross, offering to the 'ruler' of Wittenberg an opportunity to share lovely vignettes with the community: link and previous posts (not labelled, unfortunately). That a princess traveling in 1713 visits SYW-times Wittemberg poses no difficulty at all: time is as elastic as space in the 'EvE' avatar of the 18th C. Multiverse.
A few years ago the Duke of Beerstein made a 'Grand Tour' of the EvE Europe: link (several posts, not labelled, between the extreme appearing there, and on 'Eve' mainly before this one: link )

Plus, occasionally:
- (funny) references to other countries of the group ('Vile Stagonia' is at first held responsible of any assassination, suspicious death, accident… anywhere),
- inspiration without interference: a Tradgarlander (player in England) descent on the Shetlands 'triggered' a new Jacobite attempt played in the USA.

You may take a look at this very new blog:
badenhundsheim.blogspot.com
Though other begin with writing the history of their Imagi-Nation since the Dark Ages syldavianchronicle.blogspot.com

For me its basically "background" and an excuse to have fun with fancy uniforms so my games are not always "white coats vs blue coats" -- I understand the appeal of strict historical Seven Years War, or whatever, its just not "me."

I'm kinda 50/50, so I tend to paint historical figs that can be used somewhat generically, like khaki Askaris with red fez, generically robed and turbaned muslim cavalry with scimitars, khaki uniformed Europeans in sun helmets, etc. Gives me the chance to do historical (and for several mations, by switching out flags) and fantastical.

Imaginations are an offshoot of the Old School Wargaming movement that started around 2005.

2005? Old School Wargaming has been going since at leats the 1960s and possibly even before that!

Even the fact that wargamers HAVE tournaments should be an indication of this startling phenomenon!

I know nothing of these "tournaments" of which you speak.

Even the fact that wargamers HAVE tournaments should be an indication of this startling phenomenon!

I know nothing of these "tournaments" of which you speak.

HERETIC!

I remember the Ostland/Vestland Wars that appeared in Wargamers Digest back in the 70s.

"Old School Wargaming has been going since at leats the 1960s and possibly even before that!"

Of course it would have been new school gaming in the 1960s.

Der Alte Fritz is correct. Lots of these projects die on the vine after a while for a variety of reasons. Check out the Grand Duchy of Stollen blog, though, which has been going strong since August 2006 at:

grandduchyofstollen.blogspot.com

There are even painted armies that have been completed and occasional games besides loads of campaign background and quirky personalities, etc., etc.

For what it's worth, and not that anyone should care really, I prefer the term 'fictitious countries'. 'Imaginations' has been beaten to death. Just my two cents.

Best Regards,

I prefer the name "FictiNation", mostly because I just invented it.

Does anyone do anything similar for the 19th century? Or is it that history for that time is too 'set' in our memories? Novelists seem to manage it (Ruritania is the natural example). I am contemplating (and it's very early days yet) setting up Rubovia with a British Crimean army, though the country still – in the late 20th century at least – seems to be stuck with 18th century fashion. (see Rubovian website for details)
link

Novelists seem to manage it (Ruritania is the natural example).

I was gonna say, Ruritania is probably the best known such fiction out there, as are any number of small Islamic or pagan robber-states on the edges of the French, British and Ottoman Empires, of which Kipling's Kafiristan would probably be the best example. Many imaginary African states, like Haggard's Kukuanaland are still set in the 19th century, even if the 19th century really only forms a convenient backdrop for them, and their cultures tend towards the quaint.

I've been toying (no pun intended) with the idea of using various 54mm Napoleonic plastics that strike my fancy in order to create a couple of tiny countries around present day Poland or Austria fighting their Turkish type counterparts.

Yes Abdul, what about a forum just dedicated to 18th Century Imaginations, yahoo groups are so limited….a whole forum!!!!!

currently my latest forum is, as you say, plagued by numerous glitches, one of which is the inability of guests to view it… this parlous state of affairs has been going on since forummer completely wrecked our 2nd forum..we are currently contemplating going independent, which would mean starting yet again..there will be a large area for imagination states whatever happens I have held off recounting with the events of the last six months of 1741 in Pangaea because of all this uncertainty..
Blogs are ok but lack the ability to do the big picture coverage that a forum allows..

That would be great, though a yahoo group is about the limit of MY capabilities.

Forums are vastly superior to Yahoo groups.
The most striking difference is that illustrations (of decent size and resolution) can be inserted at the right place in the text, while in discussion groups small, low-resolution photos practically deprived of caption are to be files in separate portfolios. Abysmally awkward and reader-unfriendly.
Of course you can create pdf documents and post them in the group files, but it's far more complicated than merely writing and reading on a forum.

Besides, a forum can be organized in a hierarchy of directories and subdirectories, while the messages on a group are a single tangled mass of unsorted threads. Greatly better when browsing, and when searching the archives (a single, unstructured mess on Y groups).

Then, the layout allows more pleasant reading on forums, and the posts can be edited.

All in all, the mass of messages on a *whole* Y group is similar to a single discussion group on TMP before Our Venerated Editor added the possibility to insert pictures.

Yes I can do all the forum stuff, just getting a relaible host is the problem, any body have a domain and want to donate their forum bit to a good cause?

I am quite willing, and able to run one..just need the hosting site

Sounds like great fun! If we are going to do it, let's give it a name now, so that any future posts needed to get it off the ground will be readily searchable on TMP.

well a hosting site would be the first step, but names .. a new thread?..
as for the hosting site , if you have a forum option lieing around unused contact me ay
minden1759athotmail.com

The architecture is fairly simple , it is just a matter of a free forum hoster being upo to it, sadly the forummer people are not.. they are currently riddled with serious propblems that make a foum a bit of a pest to run..

yes PHP over a Yahoo group anyday,

yahoo groups are crazy, a left over from the eighties that refuses to die, if you are looking for something it is a real pain in the A, discussions cannot be followed months later, pictures cannot be inserted into discussions, no portraits, no battle reports, no pretty newly painted units …..very droll, very droll indeed!

So we need a PHP forum and administrators…..and of course contributors……Imagination nation rooms, discussions about nation building and design, flags, uniforms our hobby is visual so we need to have a PHP forum……..oh what fun!

BTW the new units for Skanderberg willl be on the parade ground very soon with some interesting head gear!

link

cheers
Matt

talks are in progress, it is a matter of finding a reliable forum host..all else is simple..if you have one PM me or leave a message at
minden1759@hotmail.com

As one making and gaming in imaginations for most of my 45 years in gaming, (began my first imagi-nation in 1972) I can answer a bit more authoritatively. First of all Imagi-nations far predated the Yahoo Group "Old School Wargamers" which of course did not come around till the net was common and began with people Like Donald Featherstone, Tony Bath, and of course Brigadier Peter Young, with CHARGE! Jack Scruby with his "Dave the Slave" campaigns et all. Most people used historical groops as imaginary nations and only later did people begin making up imaginations from whole cloth. Back then there was no "Old School" only games.

My own reason for going "Imagi-Nation" is simple. I got heartily sick of the pedants and picayune's telling me that "Oh you have the wrong style of cuff on those Chevau-leger-rifleman-militia units of the guard. Those are the uniforms they wore in the first half of 1808 and EVERYONE KNOWS that in the latter part of 1808 they added a button.

So I got tired of all that and just started making uniforms up. When I dropped the toxic Nappy's I created the Principality of Saxe-Burlap und Schleswig-Beerstein, under the formidable Ingenue Princes Trixie and all of the infantry are in pink coats with various colored facings etc. These are faced off by the blue meanies of Faustus The Great of Bad-Zu-Wurst. There is the Kingdom of Flounce and the Empire of Gulagia, etc.

I write long histories and battle reports of the games in the wars of this country, all of which have whimsical and absurd names to match the regiments. Battle of Schlagsahne, Battle of the Gummibahrwald, Siege of Stollen etc., and the regiments are named things like The Hesse-Herbox Regiment, the Hesse-Hydrox Regiment, The Riseundshine Regiment, and the Gorre and D'Epheated Regiment, and are commanded by generals of the name of The Prince of Saxe-Hillbilliehausen, The Prince of Zweibak, and General Gneisenuff. I have created an entire mythical map of the world for a map and play-by mail campaign, called and International Wargame of 12 complete countries all done in rather burlesque style (the countries are besides Saxe Burlap and Bad Zu Wurst, Land O'Goshen, Gulagia, Framboesia, Kukkamonga, Panacea, Oxymoronia, Zelotypia, Chowdor, and the Antipasto.

I also have an alternate history where Saxe-Burlap und Schleswig Beerstein is in historical Germay in the 18th century,and was created through the miscarried adventures of Frederick the Great who conceived of a grand Tontine which all the small princes of Germany would join, in the hope of eventually inheriting everyones land, but through the comic opera intervention of bizarre peoples and events (including a renegade band of Mongols, Fredericks Historian stooge, Quintus Icillius, and the famed international Bandit Don,DiDraino, the entire mass of Germany outside of Bavaria, Prussia, and a few other places fell to the parents of the Princess.

Presently I and several others in "The Society of Daisy" which was a Yahoo group purposefully set up to allow a social format for people who enjoyed playing with "imagi-nations" game in these areas and with our imagi-nations. The Society began as an offshoot of the Seven Years War group when several of us decided to move off on our own and not pester the serious people.

Presently we are engaging in a vast campaign between my Armies of SB&SB with the Empire of Ikea, A turkish power (named Ikea because its main exports are furniture like ottomans, divans and so forth) and we have had several battles in this. We put on a small convention in Lancaster in June, which features many from the Society who bring their "imagi-nations" and we have them in other periods as well as seven Years War, from ancients to space. Well I guess anything in space would be an imagi-nation by definition. This year we are having a grand bash called Amazon.Got. Con which is a clash of four persons with armies of Amazons against each other. We are also continuing the war between Saxe-Burlap und Schleswig-Beerstein and the Grand Empire of Ikea. So at the convention once again we will see the appearance of the Bennenjerries, the Goshen-Gadzooks, the Aflak's and the Spastics of the Porte, the Spastics of the Divan, and the Spahstics of the Wetbar.

No, there is nothing organized formally, there are no rules, no authoritative sets, books, ideas etc. It is strictly up to you what you wish to play with and how you wish to organize your armies. We completely reject any sort of things like that. We believe in games, gamers, food, fun, fellowship and simply the free reign of imagination. Our model is Brigadier Peter Young ala Charge, and Charles Grant in his book "The War Game."

It's not that we don't know history. Many of our members in "Daisy" are college history professors, I have a PhD in history, and I don't think there's one of us without a degree. No wait-- one guy is an iron worker, but he's as knowledgable as the rest of us. Besides he paints really well.

Why imaginations? Why not-- it's great fun. If you paint a unit of Mongol Cavalry really well and want to use it with your Roman Army- why not. It's only a game. It's not like it means anything or because you win a battle of Afrika Corps as the Germans means you're better than Rommell.

We also are inveterate intkerers and inventors-- "obsessive creative" we call our particular form of mental instability and we all have in a way taken Mozart's advice- "Your majesty-- admit it-- wouldn't you rather listen to your hairdresser than Hercules?!" Thus for example when one person decided to build a Turkish Army of the 18th century he began-- not with the Jannisarries, not with the Bashi-Bazooks, not with the Spahi's, but with ---the harem. (actully that was several years ago, and I don't think he's painted any other figures yet- I suppose he's doing that unit on a 1 to 1 scale).

Another gamer, tired of the help that the Mackattack (Huron figures) Indians give the forces of the Princess, has hired mercenary forces of his own to counter them and aid his own army modelled on that of Frederick the Great-- Japanese Samurai of the 18th century.

Everyone organizes their own armies the way they wish and we developed a set of rules that will allow armies of any basing system to be matched against any other basing system. As befits our group, the Society of Daisy, the rules are entitled "Oh God!!! Anyting but a Six!"

Imagi-nations, we feel are the ultimate form of creativity and adventure in wargames, and nothing is serious or demanding.

Oh yes, the society also publishes a quarterly newsletter devoted to the subject of Imagi-Nations. It is free to all members of the society who wish it. These have articles from our members, send-ups of classic games (this latest year we are starting a series of imposing "Marxist" philosophy on the game of Divine Right. That's Groucho, not Karl, and for example Mivior has become Maidol and so forth. In the past we also reworked four classic board games, adding revisions and new rules and scenarios and creating completely different games to the Old Avalon Hill Games, Outdoor Survival (turned it into an ancients campaign) Kriegspiel (made a modern game of military assistance out of it, Wizzards Quest (turned it into a game of faction and power struggle in the Renaissance called Guelps and Ghibbelines, and Tatics II, gave it a naval, air, and political dimension, and we redid Blitzkrieg and made it into an 18th century campaign game. We also made a completely new game of space warfare called--

wait for it--

SPACE BABES- based on all those whacky awful B movies from the 50's (our prime muse was Za-Za Gabor in "Queen of Outer Space" and we reworked THAT to be another campaign in the 18th century called

wait for it…

LACE BABES. This is a game about philandering, gambling, seduction, stealing from the poor, toadying and boot licking in court in the 18th century. You win if you imprison your wife, live with your mistress, loot the country nine ways to Sunday and completely humiliate and demoralize the best men in your goverment-- "It's good to be da king."

Oh well gotta go. Have to go home and work on my Amazon Army for the convention. It's called "The Palinistas." I also am starting my NEXT imagi- nation which is "The Grand Duchy of the Grand Duke of Gorgonzola. Basically imagine a thassalocracy of Venice, The Two Sicillies, Malta, Tunis, Rhodes, Ragusa, enclaves along the Adriatic, the Morea, and the middle East. The Grand Duke is a little mad -- well (ALL my monarchs are) and his aim is to gather up the following titles.

Pharoh of Egypt,
King of Jerusalem
Emperor of Atlantis
King of Kings (of Persia not heaven)
Heir of Priam

and whatever others he happens to cook up.

By the way the Society of Daisy got its name from one of the early members who noted that in his seven Years War Army the king of his imagination- King Leonardo always rode into battle with his pet cow Daisy trotting along besides him. Well we needed a name and decided that cows are neat, so we called it the Society of Daisy. We thought it would be better if Leonardo actually rode the cow, but he said he couldn't get the figure to fit on it so we gave him a pass but kept the name.

I'm the moderator owner of the group which has about 227 memers and my title is "The Prince of Dorkness."

OSchmidt,

Your group sounds great!

Any way for an interested Imagin-nation noobie to join and read the newsletters? They sound like they would be invaluable!

Don

Dear White Wolf

Sure, just put in the following

SOCDAISY-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

to ask to join.

However-- the newsletters aren't in the group. We don't publish them electronically, we only have print copies. We have lots of other neat stuff in the files, but not the newsletters.

The group is pretty much a chatty, friendly group of people -- like any basement wargaming group or a "down in the heels" gentlemen's club.

Thanks so much!

I wrote an article on Imagi-nations for Salute last year, I think it is encapsulated by this advice:

"Invent a country, invent a history, paint up an army and declare your right to rule."

To which I'd add – and get a blog to publish your doings!

It's also interesting to see how things twist and turn – I kicked off with a 7YW "New Byzantium" to use up some Turkish/Balkan stuff I had, then a Hungarian friend of mine wanted to wargame the 1848 campaign and those troops were ideal for that, and it is a fascinating era and the Hungarian uniformss are so colourful there is *nothing* you can think of that is OTT :) – so ergo another Imagi-Nation needed to be invented, so enter TransSyldavia.

And then I started to insert a few Imagi-units into my French army (initially to get some other colours I wanted). We are also planning a very big 7YW battle end Feb, I needed another brigade for my French, and decided to do a Saxon or Reichsarmee brigade. It just sort of became obvious that they would be an Imagi-Nation brigade, and so a 7YW German tinpot state, Saxe-Märchen, was born.

It's all chronicled here on my Imagi-Nation blog btw

novobyzantium.blogspot.com

I don't do blogs.

Been seeing other references to Imagi-Nations on other sites. Thanks to all those who've taken the time to provide explanations and links here. Much appreciated!

Currently working on some figures I might use for this concept, Late Medieval to Early Renaissance era in South & Central Europe, as well as the Late 17th to Early 18th century in America, which could crossover into the same for Europe. Lots to do before getting started.

If a forum site gets established, don't forget to post a link to it here. Thanks!

Dear Games Post

There already is one. It's called "The Society of Daisy" and its a social group and one in which virtually all of its members are involved in the propagation and running Imagi-nations games. It's a fun group and there's lots of people to helpl, give you examples etc.

It's a yahoo group. If you want me to add you just send me your e-mail to my email at sigurd@eclipse.net

Otto

I was checking the list, my favorite haunt, and I see this old thread had a new post. What to my surprise the post was deleted (but not doghoused). Whatever could the poster who seems to have had a membership of but one day put up that was so vile as to get deleted-- and on something so innocuous as Imagi-Nations????

Do I see a bit of frothing?