"'What if' Jeb Stewart invaded Canada" Topic

I've been thinking about Stuart's ride around the Yankee army during Lee's second northern invasion.

Suppose Meade sent some of his cav to chase Stuart down and alert other units, Artillery/Militia/Infantry to chase him down, and Stuart heads towards Canada.

What would happen if Canada refused him entry because it is a major military unit, and he tries to sneak in and fights Canada and US, or suppose it wouls allow them in, but US forces got in between?

Much to consider…What type of units did Canada have at that time? Just militia(such as QOR/etc), or were there Brtish Regulars there as well? What types of uniforms and what colors were they? Are there any minis that could represent them? I like historical accuracy altho' I do use a big imagination when necessary.

Any input is already appreciated.

Weren't the Confederates losing enough already without sparking another war with Britain? Was J E B Stuart that stupid?

Once they added the drop-ships and the amphibioius armored recon elements to the Confederate Inter-Galactic Armed Forces (CI-GAF) the Yankees wouldn't stand a chance.

Once the Rebs saw the girls in Nanticoke Pennsylvania, Jeb would have lost half of his men, and the rest by the time he got to Archbald and Carbondale.
He would have been the only one left.
One man is nothing but an illegal alien, not an invasion.

I am assuming he invaded up the Susquehanna Valley.

The British regulars that Britian sent to Canada in case of war with the UNION over the Trent Affair had to land in Boston, due to ice in the St. Lawrence.
The Union happily put them on trains to send them on their way to Toronto and Quebec.
So, maybe they WOULD have denied entry to Stewart, thanks to the hospitality they received from the canteen girls in Albany and Schenectady.

Take a look at Morgan's raid. Horses can only take so much.

"I'm sent to warn the neighbors, he isn't a mile behind,
He sweeps up all the horses, every horse that he can find.
Morgan, Morgan the raider, and Morgan's terrible men,
With bowie knives and pistols, are galloping up the glen."

Well then, he can take the Delaware Lackawanna.

"Whadda you pousha JEB?
I push I push I pusha
On the Delaware Lackawann!"

And how is JEB going to cross the Great Lakes, Niagara River or St. Lawrence even if he got that far?

Hovercraft!

Virginians. Canadian Winter. Insurgency over.

Somebody's got way too much freetime!!!!!!!!

In Canada there were British regular and Canadian militia redcoats, riflemen in green, artillery and cavalry in blue… there was also sedentary militia that wore thier civialian clothes. Accurate period miniatures are non-existent as far as I can see (I've been wanting to paly the Fenian raids but am stumped by the lack of decent fugures).

So JEB and the one guy with him who was able to withstand the charms of the Pennsylvania girls (he's probably gay) arrive in Canada to face the Brits. Some of the Empress Miniatures Maori Wars range would probably work pretty well.

I see no one listens…Maybe 'what if' isn't right. Call Alternative History. No, I haven't read Turtledove. A cousin did and said they're boring.

Now Gen'l JEB was out cavorting. Suppose the yanks tried to capture him? He runs towards Canada to "get into cambodia" Sso to speak. Now, Because England was sorta supportive of CSA, Stuart goes in. Maybe Canada doesn't want him in; don't need te hassel…

This is just an idea covering something interesting. I'm curious about what regiments were already in Canada. Again, did England have any already there, or were just inclined to send if needed?

Oh, you're serious?

Then go to this
link
and scroll down to "Military Preparations".

@ Connard" No, the CS were on the road to winning. Can't you read English? Invasion is not the intent, unless he's tryingt to cover his tail.

Consider American football. Side A runs to get a touchdown, but steps outa bounds to stop the clock and take a breather if side B's about to squash 'em.

And if you are serious, explain how Stewart's brigade (or division) could have traveled the entire width of Pennsylvania and New York, supplied itself and kept fresh horse flesh, and made it to any border post on the Canadian border any stronger in strength than Jeb and his banjo player.

Consider American football.

That is certainly an extremely relevant argument, something Patton and Eisenhower would understand, since they were such fans of footbball.

Invasion is not the intent, unless he's tryingt to cover his tail.

Then he complies nicely with international law and is interned for the duration. I presume he is a gentleman so doubtless his parole would be accepted.

I don't know what would have happened if Jeb Stewart, whoever he is, invaded Canada. I'm sure that Marse Robert would have been just a little bit peeved if JEB Stuart went on a joy ride to Canada.

It would be easier for the British to strike through NY and Penn to link up with the Confederacy.

Ooh, a live one.

@ Connard" No, the CS were on the road to winning.

History suggests otherwise.

Your American football analogy makes no sense whatsoever, but nice…er, try.

Can't you read English?

Yes, I can thanks. I can spell it and punctuate it quite well too. So let's not get snotty, eh? People in glass houses and all that.

I like baseball, football just leaves me….ho-hum. JEB Stewart has his faults, the summer of 1863 was a large one. A drive on Canada? That would have been a tragedy for all concerned. The crown forces in Canada would have regarded Stewarts cavalry as an incursion from a foreign power (yes I know I cant spell, 6 years of college and all that) and would have destroyed it or compelled to surrender either to the federal forces or to the British Crown. Would make a very interesting book with out the turtledove drivel.

"Maybe 'what if' isn't right. Call Alternative History. No, I haven't read Turtledove"…

No let's call it "Suspend reality" or "Let's pretend"…I could never see Stuart (or any Confederate troops) in Canada much less Grant at Vicksburg ending up in Mexico…Sorry.

I think Jeb's sense of direction was batter than that.

If you look at the St.Albans's raid, while the Brits and Canadians may have admired the raiders daring (and resented the Unions heavy-handeness over the trent affair, the blockade and other issues)they feared being dragged into the war. The authorities in Canada sent reinforcements to watch the border and prevent a repeat.

Oh and if the record is anything to go by, any interned confederates in Canada could expect to recieve lenient treatment.

"any interned confederates in Canada could expect to receive lenient treatment" Until some of those now perfectly free, recent Canadian, ex-slaves found out where they where Jeb and the banjo player were sleeping. I can hear that knife on the sharpener right now. In the scenario, does the banjo player know how to play Deliverance?

Canada Customs would have simply charged them duty and GST on every thing they happened to be carrying and allowed them in. Getting back into the states would be the only tricky part. Rob.

…He'd be converted to the "joy" of Molson's…

AND…

Become a "LOT" more polite.

Impossible scenario.

I think Canada has guns laws that would either prohibit or restrict certain firearms and require quite complex paperwork for the transport of the latter. Not sure about swords in a public place. In the UK they'd have to be three inches or less.

For American readers unfamiliar with the concept of gun laws see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law :-)

I'm glad he never tried to make it to Canada, I would hate to see the Canadians have to burn a second Capital building in the US!

Jeb would have gone back south as fast as his little horses legs could manage it ……. I mean a souterner in 5 months of snow…..NAH i'm a goin home laddie.

M

Yep. We Southerners are smart enough to live where it's warm in the first place. Y'all can keep the snow, the ice, and the insanely high heating bills…

In any case, no point, JEB wouldn't have done it. He'd have found a way through or around any Union forces he was facing to return to the Confederate lines. But even assuming he had "run for Canada," he'd either have immediately apologized for the impolite incursion and requested permission to arrange sea transport home for him and his men, or headed west to obtain a more secure return route. (Not that the latter is any more logistically feasible than the "escape" into Canada…)

Is Y'all a version of the very old Yow'el, from Englands Industrial Black Country, which is the same as Y'all?

It's a logical abbreviation of "you all," which is, of course, the correct grammatical form of the second person plural of the pronoun "you." (Note, of course, that the same cannot be said of that abominable Yankee construction "youse," which sounds just as incorrect as it is.)

Marara,well lad we have have one of those unknown confederates here and after 147 yrs he still refuses to go home.Buried in the military grave section in Windsor Ontario.He might be from the Lake Erie incident of an escapee from the POW camp that is now Cedar Point Ohio.

Y'ALL = you-all, j'eeet? as in did you eat yet? and I live in Louisville which is properly pronounced
Luh-uh-vullll………………….
and how is a "torch" a flashlight? you cant set fire to anything with a flashlight, unless of course your mcgiver

and how is a "torch" a flashlight?

I've got one of these

link

It's a torch…

Is Y'all a version of the very old Yow'el, from Englands Industrial Black Country, which is the same as Y'all?

Being something of an expert in Black Country dialect, becuss that's what we tork rahnd 'ere, "yow'll" is a contraction of "you will" – "yow'll fall off that wall if yow ay careful", and "yow'm is likewise a contraction of "you are" ("you am") – "yow'm saft". "Yow all" is "you all" – "yow all woe get on that bus".

Next lesson is Black Country grammar. Pay attention. :)

Thanks kyoteblue, for your comment on 30 Jan. An ex-stepson was using my name for this, and those folks run him off. JEB is like some gggUncle, and he is so fascinated he has big dreams.

He's even reading those big ol' heavy things called books regarding the war.

connard, y'all isn't connected with yow'll. Yowl is what cats do in mating season. 'Yall come in(you all come in)!' That's an invite. 'yow'll come in' That's another uppity British command-You will come in.

Even if Stuart did ever attempt that, my first thought is the same thing that I always think about when contemplating all these ongoing discussions of what-if's…

How would they have logistically supported themselves?

It's the same kind of thing with all these Gettysburg what-ifs, people talk about the confederate army like they could have marched anywhere they wanted, as far as they wanted, as long as they wanted.

These kinds of discussions seem to take place in a vaccum. Civil armies, like all armies, needed supply lines and a steady stream of physical support.

To be blunt, you gotta have rations, you gotta have bullets and powder, you gotta have forage for you animals. A Civil War army could literally grind to a halt if it found itself short of supplies and unable to resupply itself in the face of the enemy or out in the open country. A few weeks of campaigning, particulary the kind of campaign that Lee undertook in Pennsylvania, only afforded a limited time of maneuver and perhaps afforded only ONE big battle. After a time, they would have had to contract back and reestablish supply and refit. It doesn't do a Civil War army much good to have marched and outflanked an enemy, or gotten between Meade and Washington, or whatever the case may be, if that army couldn't shoot and couldn't eat.

A Civil War army on the march was an absolute resource hog which consumed food and ammunition in massive quantities, and also consumed animal life and animal power, and those animlas consumed huge amounts of forage. An army of infantry, or a command of cavalry, could only make so many maneuvers on a campaign, could only stretch its fingers so far, could only fight so many battles, before it had to contract, regroup, reconnect, and resustain itself, and end the campaign.

This is that I keep foremost in my mind when talking about these what-if, especially the "Gettysburg confederate porn" of popular fiction, of the confederates flanking, outmarching, going around, and changing the fate and outcome of Gettysburg. It all makes for a great novel and a great tale, but the reality is that armies had to eat, and could only shoot its muskets and its cannon so much before the game was up.

Civil War commands couldn't defy the laws of physics or nature.

One of my favorite lines from the movie Gettysburg is by Longstreet, it alludes to just how limited and how much time restriction there was on a Civil War army to maneuver and win quickly before it had "shot its bolt".

Tom Berenger says to Lee when arguing about the possibilities open to them on the third day,

"We have enough artillery for one more good fight, but just ONE."…

In other words, on July 3rd, they had one more big stone in their pocket to throw, one more big firework, enough for one more big brawl…but after that, win or lose, they had to end the campaign and resupply. They were far from their base of supplies, and to put it bluntly, had to win quickly before they ran out of stuff!

Noboby, not Lee, not Stuart, nor any army or corps commander could have just marched off so easily and so indefinitely into the kind of what-if fantasies we conjur up in our minds.

They were bound by all the same restrictions of nature and physics and energy that we are bound to today in our daily lives.

A stomach with no food means your army starves. A musket or cannon that's empty doesn't shoot. A horse with no oats to eat wears down and dies. End of story.

Campaigner, you hit it on the head of what was really important and what won the war. Lee, Stuart, whoever could be brilliant and dashing all they wanted. However, the war was won by Gen Herman Haupt and the the US military railroad. (He also made our modern world possible by proving oil could be transported by pipelines.)

Not everyone really thinks realistically about their heros. Jim had considered Stuarts ride around the North as 'joy riding' and had thoughts about what would happen IF the yanks had chased him.

Would they have tried for Canada? Would they have been allowed in? Would they have been denied? This whole deal should've been marked as an alternitive reality as opposed to what-if. He's only 12.

Anyway, you folks don't have to worry about him anymore. He got too spooked to come back, even if I'm on here. Oh well.

Musings more aligned to Turtledove than history but let's see what we have :
______________________
Orbat
How big was JEB Stuart's command starting out? 10,000? I don't know so help me out here. I'm assuming all cavalry. How much artillery?
______________________
Attrition
What was the usual daily attrition rate for cavalry? How many effectives might they have after pushing through Union lines and covering the distance? I am also assuming the CSA would not be able to get significant reinforcement through to rebuild Stuart's forces.
______________________
Supply
I will assume limited supplies, but that didn't stop Sherman. So possibly they could extract supplies as they moved … if they stopped moving, supplies would become an issue, as would the opposing response.
______________________
Military Effectiveness
Could they have captured any significant Canadian territory? The big towns along the Saint Lawrence (Toronto, Montreal, Quebec) could probbly be defended. So maybe they head to the prairie provinces. How long could they have held that territory against a British or US response? I am assuming both the British and the US could concentrate superior forces quickly enough.
______________________
Alliances
And there is the possibility that the US and Britain might cooperate …

Britain and CSA come to some arrangement? The King is declared Grand Duke of the Southern States of America.

CSA fosters a rebellion by the Canadians? The further North they get into the provinces, the more french speakers and less crown loyalty …

Now here is an even long shot … what if CSA (What did the British Empire ever do for us?") came to some agreement with the Russians ("Remember Sebastopal!")? CSA fleeing to Alaska or a Russian force drives east to rescue them and capture territory…

Leave it to the ACW boards to come up with the wackiest most ridiculous, crazy topics. What is it about the ACW that brings all the Crazies out?

I am just so sure Jeb could fight his way to Canada before running out of supplies and ammunition, wait, oh yeah he would steal the ammunition from every general store between the Mason/Dixon line and the Canadian border. Live off the land. Yeah that's the ticket.

The Civil War Historian William C. Davis related a story about one of his students asking "Would the Confederates had won if they had an atomic bomb?" His answer was no because they had no delivery system.

It would have been so heavy that a team of mules would have to tow it to Washington at such a slow speed they would not get close enough even for an atomic bomb and they would not be able to get away in time before it went off.

Your from Oklahoma? Well that explains it.

Britain and the CSA coming to some arraingment, otehr than slavery was illegal in Britain at the time and had been for 15? years. Bit of a problem that, start a war over something then give it away to stay in the war. talk about gole replacement.

But hey I suspect all us grumpy old grognard had some less than totaly thought out idea when we where 12. You have to grow and work some horses of your own before you realize just how limited they are, and how much trouble they are to maintain. Not to mention as has been said elsewhere just how unpatriotic they are.

I wonder, if the fedrals had just gotten out of his way and let Stuart try to make it to canada in one run, how much of his command wuold have made it? I dont believe he had a field forge along, so the horses will start throwing shoes pretty quickly.

And it is no more odd that a lot of older folks have posted on a lot of the TMP boards.

Owen

Britain was sympathetic to the confederacy not because of slavery but because of the need for raw cotton supplies for the mills. The Lancashire cotton mills went into shut down as the federal blockade of southern ports started to bite and there was real pressure to use the Royal Navy to break that blockade. The Trent incidenmt made things worse and the fact that we were building blockade runners and warships for the South meant that the Federal authorities were nervous of the British. Meanwhile on the West Coast the Russain Pacific fleet sailed into (IIRC) San Francisco Harbour to prevent their fleet becoming ice bound in Vladivostok in case of hostilities breaking out. Not sure who they were worried about. In Europe a head of steam is building up that eventually became the trigger for WW1. Prussia fights Austria, Denmark and France within the next 10 years, French and Austrians in Mexico. Jeb Stuart invading Canada? No lets have WW1 happen in 1863 instead, all the building blocks are in place including Britain sending good quality regulars to Eastern Canada (could have been the Brigade of Guards been a long time since I researched this). The main thing that kept the Brits from intervening in the ACW was Prince Albert's influence as Palmerston was pretty hot to trot. Now if Albie had died of Cholera a couple of years earlier…….

The original post was done by an almost stepson, and all the pleasent comments here run him off.

He, being kin to Stuart looks up to the him. What he was thinking is this: While Stuart was gallivanting around up there and keeping Lee in the dark, what would've happened if enough Yanks kept him from going back to ANV? Suppose he tried a run for it to Canada?

The boy eanted to set up a couple of scenarios, 1) the Canadians blocking Stuarts entry, and so a real international incident, and 2) Canada let him in and CS Canadian Militia fight the Yanks. Suppose, there was a 3) and CS/British troops against Canadian Militia and Yanks.

That boy has a huge imagination, and he was fantasizing. I bet yall have done that, once or twice, about folks you are proud to be kin to. He just didn't make himself very clear.

The Russian Fleet was in San Fransisco as a show of force in support of the Union.

link

The main thing that kept the Brits from intervening in the ACW was Prince Albert's influence as Palmerston was pretty hot to trot.

No, what kept Britain out of the war was Southern slavery. Once Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation, no British government would or could intervene.

Prince Albert died on 14 December 1861. So whatever influence he had wasn't for very long.