"Agincourt but not Formigny?" Topic

Whilst not a major Medievalist, i was struck when reading something recently that whilst everyone in England (well maybe not those for whom the Bumgate saga in the Big Brother house is the main news story!) knows about Agincourt (and of course ) I imagine that few people know about Formigny.

As i understand it the latter was a decisive French victory that spelled the end of English control over Northern France.

Is that French spin?

Given that we spent so much time in France in the Middle Ages and now it's not controlled by the UK one presumes even if the Daily Mail won't say so, that though we won quite a few of the battles, we lost the war?

I have the same issue in a way btw ref Welsh history where I remember being taught all about the Marcher Lords but precious little about the battles that we (the Welsh) won (this was pre-devolution of course when the curriculum was maybe more anglo-centric) – even if in that case, we did (like the English in France) lose the overall struggle.

I would say it was true. I visited Formigny, just behind Omaha Beach in Normandy. Great battle to play on the tabletop as an antidote to Agincourt.

Cheers
Mark

What got snipped?

comment ref the anti French agenda in our tabloid papers which implies the French have never won anything militarily

I thought in 100YW from Orleans and on it was mostly French victories?

If it can make you happy: most French people also have heard about Crécy, Poitiers, and Azincourt (French spelling), but not many know about Formigny.

I suppose it is because Crécy and Azincourt came as big surprises. Crécy was the fall of chivalry against infantry, and Azincourt opened a new period in the HYW also. But the last battles, Formigny and Castillon, were only a result of what happened in the last part of the war.

Hardly unique. Most people don't take an interest in history-anywhere. I was in Manassas in 2001. We stopped and asked a couple of police officers where the battlefield was. They didn't have a clue. Never heard of it. They did offer to show us the John/Lorena Bobbit house.

Heck. The Big Bang Theory just attributed the The Star Spangled Banner to the bombardment of Fort Sumter. How many people involved in the production of a TV show? Not one of them knew that was wrong and spoke up about it.

@ Patrice: true for the fact. But the reason is maybe more because the french official memoriam is grounded on despising the Ancien Regime (leftist critiscism), and also on the romantic view that defeat, self-lament and decline are more inspiring than boring victories (rightist critiscism). Same for Trafalgar and Waterloo better known in France than Austerlitz (thanks to Paris Waterloo Station – in French Gare d'Austerlitz, the latter battle is still a bit remembered though). The only widely known name of a French victory is Marignan, because it is a student's joke (the easiest date to remember in history, 1515).

Formigny is not remembered when compared to the epic slaughters of the earlier war. There were no persons of royal note leading either army. But at the time I don't think it went unremarked as assumed in this thread. The defeat of the English army resulted in the permanent loss of Normandy, leaving only Calais. The key to the English defeat was the inadequate protection of the flanks; so that the late-arriving Bretons could charge the English flank, thus forcing a withdrawal from their fortified front in order to face the threat. Lacking concentrated archery, the English could not keep off the French charges. I played this one once: Rocky Russo put it on, and of course I, the English, lost horribly/historically. It was one of our more fun games….

But at the time I don't think it went unremarked as assumed in this thread.

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my point was that it goes unremarked now in terms of many (relatively) people knowing about Agincourt but few knowing about a battle that actually had more consequences. Of course due to Anglocentric teaching/media I know – those living in the US won't know how every time a game is played by England in the World Cup, all the tiresome stereotypes are dragged out by the gutter press ref the Germans, French, Spanish or how university educated journalists manage to lever Wayne Rooney's name into any heasdline: "Roo we go", "Roo do you think you are" and similar moronic stupidity

But the last battles, Formigny and Castillon, were only a result of what happened in the last part of the war.

IIRC Stephen Turnbull in his book about 14th and 15th centuries described the late years of the HYW as the "long losing war".

As for understanding history of HYW, the battles tend to be the easy and straightforward part. How many can describe the political background of the war, and the aims of the kings of Englands on it?