"How many times can you rally?" Topic

In some rule sets, a routing unit can be rallied, enter the fray, rout & be rallied again ad infinitum (specifically Field of Glory but others as well).

How realistic is this? Can morale go up & down like a yo-yo in real life? Should there be a limit? Should the die roll needed go up 1 every time?

This question is the result of a discussion my group is having & I'm keen to hear other view points.

Many times one reads of routing troops being rallied by individuals (maybe senior officers, maybe not) and then performing effectively. Less so for militia and more so for professionals. Not sure of the ad-infinitum nature as how many opportunities does one have to rout in a real battle. Rather than rout as a unit, the number of "shirkers" would increase as the tempo goes up and cinfidence goes down.

In ancient battles wasn't breaking pretty much a once only affair? The first thing breaking troops did was dump their shields and sometimes weapons (especially pikes etc) to expedite their flight. Even if rallied they would be pretty ineffective.
This might not apply to lighter troops. However, off the top of my head I can't think of an instance of routing troop being rallied and returning to battle in this period.
That's if a rout is what is being modelled of course. Maybe they're trying to show dispirited troops retiring from the battlefield in good order rather than a full blown rout. I don't own FoG so can't say.

@ Agent Brown.

Good point about the weapons.

In my War of 1812 rules routed units may make a number of ATTEMPTS to rally according to morale level, 5 times for A class, once for E for example. Once they run out of unsuccessful attempts they are removed. (Note that a unit does not have to attempt to rally the first turn after it is routed, allowing it to rout off to a safer spot before making a rally roll). I have no restrictions as to how many times a unit may be rallied, but you could create a similiar rule. A unit that rallies more than once in a game really hasn't come up in my experiance.

I'm sure that in Field of Glory a lot of the rallying mechanism is a game balance to the risk of dropping down the cohesion levels, rather than an actual simulation.

However, other than mounted troops breaking off after unsuccessful charges, there isn't any pressurised backwards movement in the game (which we know there was in historical battle) – so I think the way to look at it is that when troops break, it is an immediate messy pull back which upsets their neighbours. If you don't do anything about it, that is the last you will see of those troops. If you intervene, you will discover if it was really a rout or if you can get them back into the line.

Breaks combined with actual losses (so BGs which are actually combat-mangled) are often very hard to recover or just autobreak and are removed.

In actual games multiple recoveries just don't happen. Remember you lose a base if pursuers keep contact, you have to get 6MUs from any enemy to have a chance of rallying and that the table edge is negative modifier for non-skirmishers*

Not sock puppetting for FoG here: like I say, mostly it is game mechanism allowing you to go up the cohesion ladders as well as down (otherwise it would be too random a game as it is too easy to go down as a result of meaninglessly bad dice) …

Hope that helps

Phil
soawargamesteam.blogspot.com

*so troops who rally are usually the ones who broke against the run of the game, where the enemy didn't keep the pressure on then and/or as the result of the intervention of an IC.

At Kolin (1757) the Prussian Guard infantry were ridden down 3 times by Austrian cavalry, each time picking themselves up and reforming. But they were Guards.

I should think in any period when troops break and run in panic a lot of weapons will get ditched. While one can recover from panic, between discarded weapons and plain exhaustion, I would think rallied troops would not be up to the level they started the day at.

I like Glengarry 2's ideas.

FOG has four cohesion levels

STEADY – these guys are ready to go into battle. 'Nuff said.

DISRUPTED – they are starting to feel a little uncertain about things. They don't fight as well as STEADY troops and may not always obey orders to charge.

FRAGMENTED – they are getting quite worried about the battle. They fight worse than DISRUPTED troops. They can not charge and may rout if charged.

DISRUPTED and FRAGMENTED troops are still capable of fighting and are often in combat as they drop levels. They can under certain conditions be bolstered (or rallied, if you prefer) and rise a cohesion level.

BROKEN are the routers fleeing the battlefield. They don't fight- they flee. In theory, they could be rallied and stop fleeing, but it requires a general to be with the unit and for them to be well clear of any enemy troops. Even with that, the minuses for BROKEN and troop losses makes rallying a broken unit a difficult thing (10+ on 2d6 is a good estimate) In my FOG experience, rallying a broken unit rarely happens ( maybe 1/36) and when it does, the unit and general are so far away as to be effectively out of the battle by the time the game is over.

So, IMO, FOG makes quite a difference between troops in combat degrading in effectiveness and broken troops fleeing the field. Yes, you can try to rally the routers and try until you succeed or they leave the field, but is not an efficient use of one of your limited number of generals.

Magnesia, 190 BCE – Roman left wing was shattered by Seleucid cataphracts and fled back to the camp. The tribune in charge of the camp rallied them and got them back into the fight. Not sure how much combat they got involved in after that though – it is possible that the battle might have been nearly won at that stage.

Cheers
Paul.

In some rule sets, a routing unit can be rallied, enter the fray, rout & be rallied again ad infinitum (specifically Field of Glory but others as well).

It might be possible in theory in FOG, but it's rare to rally a unit even once. I can't remember the last time I rallied a broken unit, and I play FOG nearly every week.

Not as often as when I was younger.
-Kle.

In some rule sets, a routing unit can be rallied, enter the fray, rout & be rallied again ad infinitum

Depending on the rule set they are not necessarily rallying from rout – they are "rallying" from "rout".

A general, like a wargamer, cannot tell if unit withdrawing is broken for good or merely suffering a temporary drop in morale. He finds out only later. It's fog of war stuff, and far more realistic than knowing immediately that a unit is only withdrawing temporarily or is broken for good.

So, for at least some rule sets, "rout" is a Shroedinger's Cat situation: it might be 100% routing or it might rally immediately. You just don't know which way until you test. But "rout" should not be confused with rout.

Marshal has it right, the other thing that happens is the general is occupied and can't help elsewhere (although I think he can still issue orders?)

A lot can happen in the times it takes to rally by the way. Rallying from routed takes you to shaken, which is not an effective state for anything. Disordered is the next level up and has a reduction in shooting and combat too.

Also, the routed unit has to be 6 or more inches away to even be rallied to begin with. Play some games and you will find that this is harder than it seems on paper. The game will usually end before a unit can rally from broken multiple times anyway.

Thank you for the responses.

This wasn't intended as an attack on FoG: the rule set we use & enjoy. And although not quite ad infinitum, it has happened: lucky dice throws?

Perhaps a 'house rule' about the number of times a BG can rally from rout (broken & fleeing) might suffice.

The simplest thing is just to make it harder to rally each time, so -1 for each previous rout or whatever.

In ancient battles wasn't breaking pretty much a once only affair?

Yep. Once a unit or the army started going the wrong way, it was hard to get them back. Most of the casualties occurred during the end game when one side or the other broke. This is why you see battles being lopsided affairs throughout antiquity.

I must add that as a fairly new player with the wonderful FoG rules, it is important NOT to jump to change until I've played a greater number of games.

I think you need to allow the designers of the game some credit.

I've always tried to model this kind of fatigue into my gaming. Thus, in my ancients gaming, units that rally following a beating in hand to hand suffer permanent disruption (degrades combat effectiveness).

This wasn't intended as an attack on FoG: the rule set we use & enjoy. And although not quite ad infinitum, it has happened: lucky dice throws?

Are you saying you have had a unit rout, get rallied, return to the battle, get routed again then rally again ?

That would be a very unusual (and extremely unlikely) set of circumstances. Are you sure you were playing all the rules correctly ? Given that you have to be at least 6" from enemy to rally a broken unit, you normally only get one or two chances, and it normally needs at least a 9+ (and more normally a 10+ or 11+) on the Cohesion test to rally. And (as pointed out above) that only returns the unit to a Fragmented state, so it cannot voluntarily return to combat until rallied further.

Perhaps a 'house rule' about the number of times a BG can rally from rout (broken & fleeing) might suffice.

The simplest thing is just to make it harder to rally each time, so -1 for each previous rout or whatever.

Not necessary at all IMO. I've been playing FOG since the start, and I've only seen units rallied from broken a handful of times, and never seen the same unit rallied from broken twice.

I play the computer game which follows the same methodology of the rules though the combat mechanics are somewhat d9ifferent. Units usually don't rally and once they have been hacked past their break point, they run off the battlefield without hope of rallying.

@acarhj
Because of what youre saying, it seems to me that the PC Game is not the same…

it seems to me that the PC Game is not the same…

Actually the morale system is identical. And both games (I believe) have autobreak points for losses. As we are talking about morale, this is quite relevant.

So while we are on the subject of rallying I played a game recently with my son, which is where part of this discussion from ochoin deach comes from. We are still learning the rules so there is a chance we did this incorrectly. I managed to break has BG of Elephants with HF with good dice rolls, however in the route and pursuit I rolled a one and he a six for variable move distance, which meant his Elephants moved at great speed away (6MU to 1MU), I then ran into another enemy BG. The Elephants moved far enough away to be rallied (outside 6MU), not just to Fragmented but through a number of Joint Action phases to Steady again. I was not able to get to them to stop this. They then reentered the battle and broke 2 BGs of my HF. The question I have, is should the Elephants have been able to get all the way back up to Steady. Would it not have been more realistic for them or any other broken unit to only ever be able to get back to a Disrupted cohesion level, or is it viewed that because this is a rare occurrence that it should just be accepted as part of the game mechanics. BTW this allowed my son to effectively win the game.

Well:
1) It is to rally broken troops at all with the -3 modifier, and the requirement that they be at least 6MU from enemy (this is a good use for your light cavalry – stop the enemy rallying).
2) You need a general in attendance
3) Even if you make all the rolls it is at least 4 joint action phases after the rout – they can't rally right away (too close), and then rout->frag, frag->disr, disr->steady
Given that none of these except perhaps the last are better than 50% odds, and mostly worse than that, it's likely to take at least 4 moves, maybe more.
4) Even with all the above, routers move in every JAP – so if they don't rally at once they will be far from the action and take ages to get back.

We find routed units very seldom manage to get back into the battle in FoG.

is it viewed that because this is a rare occurrence that it should just be accepted as part of the game mechanics.

Exactly. It doesn't happen very often, so it's not worth writing special rules for. When broken units are rallied, they rarely return to combat. They are often rallied more for the impact on attrition points losses.
Also elephants rarely get broken through cohesion loss. Remember one failed Death Roll will autobreak the unit, and it's unusual to lose enough rounds of combat to break without failing a death roll.

I agree with Dexter and Mark.

The only thing I would add is beware Light Horse armies with an IC (they are the one exception – I find they do rally units and bring them back from the dead: the IC adds an extra plus and the 'edge of the world' has no effect on skirmishers, so often an 8 will rally them)…

It is harder but even more important with these armies to keep the pressure on (prevent them rallying by keeping something with 6MUs! Not easy when they move 7MUs!)

Phil

The only thing I would add is beware Light Horse armies with an IC (they are the one exception – I find they do rally units and bring them back from the dead: the IC adds an extra plus and the 'edge of the world' has no effect on skirmishers, so often an 8 will rally them)…

Yes, I agree…and they move fast enough to get back into the battle when rallied.
I have no problem with the concept of skirmishers rallying and returning though. It is likely they will have broken from shooting and not taken base losses, so this can be seen as them retiring to recover then returning to the fight. Not having been actually "broken" as such.

I'm happy with the way FoG handles morale, but this discussion reminded me of the system in Advanced Squad Leader.

In that system, if a unit "broke" with a bad enough die roll, it would drop one level of quality. Thus, if a unit failed several morale checks through the course of the game, it was possible for it to drop from elite level down to average, then down further to shaky conscript. At that point, a further bad morale check might even cause it to simply disappear. That's probably an extreme case, but it was possible to bring them down that far.

If you wanted to have some kind of permanent effect in FoG, you could try a similar approach: If a cohesion test fails by X, a superior unit would drop to average and an average unit would drop to poor, and poor ones would just disappear. Of course, that would require some bookkeeping to keep track of where everyone is.

Interesting idea but it would have a significant impact in respect of units autobreaking fo base loss.

I have to admit that I have 'gamed' the system. In large games, with plenty of points, I have bought an Inspired Commander specifically for the purpose of rallying. I will also keep one or more Superior Cav units in reserve. If a unit breaks, the IC double moves the Cav into support of the routing unit, then the IC jumps forward and attempts to rally. The IC gives a +2 and the support gives a +1. The odds of rallying are far better. The (now) fragmented unit then turns around and continues to rally to disrupted and assumes a support role. A previously supporting unit is now released to jump forward and engage as a line unit. This is one of the ways my Gauls have been able to defeat the Romans.

This sounds perfectly historical – an Inspired commander with an elite bodyguard as a reserve make it easier to rally routing units.
It costs a lot of points, so I don't know whether it's actually an advantage….

Dexter: You are quite correct about the cost-benefit. I have found it only is workable when you have a cheap army vs. an expensive one (Gauls vs. Romans for example). You give up some of your flank advantage by adding depth and the ability to reclaim units. Romans simply can't afford it. They end up having to fight units over and over again. In addition, Romans really have no way to restore damaged units. Death Rolls have reduced their small BGs to the point that restoring them is all but useless. In a manner of speaking, this turns cheaper units into a kind of 'Immortal'.

I gather in the ACW troops showed a lot of capacity to bug out but then reform. However this may have been to do with the demographics & dynamics of this particular war as it was commented on with surprise at the time.

Read the battle of Zama. troops did break and later rally at times especially when there were a supporting 2nd or 3rd line of troops to rally on.