"General Zeiten's message to Wellington." Topic

Zeiten lie?
Interesting history investigation if you like to know more about the Waterloo campaing.

PDF link

Maybe Wellington knows about the french attack from his spies?

Hope you enjoy!.

Amicalement
Armand

…..and the can of worms has been reopened.

Interesting article, which Mr Hofschroer will no doubt take exception to.

I realise that my comments may be regarded as heresey, but you have to wonder whether, after nearly 200 years, it really matters if the message from Zieten was sent or received at 09.00. The outcome was the same, a great victory for the combined British, Dutch-Belgian and German armies.

Steve J

This article is years old and was, I think, published originally in the now defunct First Empire magazine. Nothing to get exited about in 2012!

Yep, an oldie but a goodie. Well and truly argued out by those involved on both sides of this old dispute. Though having said that, I'm not sure if there was ever a published response to the points raised in this particular article (someone might put me right if there was).

Despite its age, it is still a very thought-provoking article, especially if you're new to this particular slant on the story of the Waterloo campaign.

And the article reads a bit like a detective story, so may still be interesting even if you're not really into the Waterloo campaign, or even not into Napoleonics at all.

And, overall, I do agree with Redcurrant that, in the end, what the hang does it matter to us today, whichever interpretation is what really happened on the day???

@ Arteis

I must disagree with your comment: "what the hang does it matter to us today".

It must be a fundamental tenet of history that a search for that ever elusive bird, the Truth, is the primary motivation.

I can't think that anyone who thinks history is important could casually shrug off the importance of trying to find out what actually happened.

Apart from the fact that in this particular instance, we might learn some all-important lesson about the nature of politics, the intrigues of international relations or the degree that history gets twisted to suit other agendas, surely our love for the topic gives us a passion to separate fact from myth?

Now if you are implying that the importance of this issue should never become a mere debating point to bolster our egos, as a weapon to bludgeon our internet opponents or to purposely obfuscate matters for our own egotistical ends then YES! I totally agree.

But let us not confuse the subject with those who seek to play with it.

(you're one of the 'Good Guys' here & I suspect your comment was to dampen future flames)

But the British truth or the German one, that's the question. (free after Hamlet).

sorry, could't resist.

At risk of taking this thread well away from the OP's intention, Ochoin …

I enjoy history as a pursuit, as an entertainment. I love reading the books, researching my armies, watching historical movies etc etc. I love revelling in former times, which always feel much more exciting times to live (though much more uncomfortable too!)

However, no matter how entertaining I find history, I wrestle with the idea that I should find history important. Knowing the Truth of minor details of history won't have the tiddliest effect on today's lives.

In a sense, I find that the Truth of what happened long ago is nowhere as important as the Myth of what happened long ago. Because if anything has an effect on today, it is the myths, not the truth of what really happened. In other words, 'Story' has much more effect than 'Hi-Story'.

So, yes, I still stand by the statement that "what the hang does it matter to us today?"

Knowing which story of Zeiten's message timing is the Truth won't change the lives of me or anyone else on this planet. All it will be is … interesting.

Again I must respectfully disagree.* Isn't it the historian's role to seek the truth?

As for relevance to people's daily life, apart from food & shelter truly is?

We "could" live without Art or Literature but these (& history) add dimensions to our lives.

I read back what i've just written & it seems the most self-important twaddle but I still think it!

* is this where we start to insult each other's mothers? Wait a minute: this is a civilised discussion & not some of the shameful flaming you sometimes get here.

I was looking at this article and trying to figure out what the hub-bub was all about. I couldn't figure it out.

I see the historian's job as trying to figure out what actually happened and laying as many of those facts as possible on the table for others to interpret. "Truth" therefore is in the eye of the reader.

Yep, Ochoin, I was originally going to mention Art and Literature in my above posting, but felt that I was already getting too self-important ;-) So I deleted that sentence! But, in a nut-shell, I feel exactly the same about them: fun, entertaining, but not important.

On the other hand, Science, Medicine, Law, Languages etc are as important as food and shelter, because they do affect people.

I'm not bagging History. Just trying to place it into context. Yes, the historian's job might be to find the truth (if they can!) … but I think that is no more important to humanity as a whole than a novelist writing a fiction book. Still fun, adds dimension to our lives etc – but not important.

And, in a way, I'm trying to point out the utter stupidity of the acrimonious fights (such as the one about Zeithen's message) that inflate the importance to humanity of what is being argued about. Though I must say these bitter arguments seem to have subsided on TMP of late.

By the way, I've moved this discussion over to my 'Dressing the Lines' blog, as I think it is a good debating subject – and hopefully no-one will bring in mothers etc ;-)

link

And also to a separate thread on TMP: TMP link

I further think that people's understanding of history has a direct impact on how they think and act and the decisions they make in the here and now. And that shouddn't be confused with intentional academic quibbling for a paycheck.

If that's the case, Bottom Dollar, I still think it is people's understanding of the myths of history that has any such impact.

Maybe this is the time to bring up that neat quote: 'The one thing people learn from history is that people don't learn from history'.

'The one thing people learn from history is that people don't learn from history'.

Who said that?

I don't agrre with Henry Ford's "History is bunk" either.

Very interesting point you make on the power of myth. But should we believe the old Victorian myths that Britons are indomitable, pure & somehow superior to virtually everyone else on the globe, or look at colonial history with a slightly more realistic eye? And should we challenge such views so as not to promulgate ideas that lead to aggression & war?

More relevant to this board, I don't think the myths surrounding Napoleon served the French people well over the century after Waterloo.

…..and the can of worms has been reopened.

So far, so good…..

Historical 'truth' is often little more than one man's interpretation of information.

Who said that?

Me. I vaguely recall hearing it from somewhere else, but if no-one else lays claim to it, I can make it my first-ever quotation. *

But should we believe the old Victorian myths that Britons are indomitable, pure & somehow superior to virtually everyone else on the globe, or look at colonial history with a slightly more realistic eye?

Good point. But the Victorians did apparently believe that particular myth. So myth affected them more than historical truth did.

Views about colonialism are now changing (but is that because of historians, or many other factors?). And there are plenty of new historical myths that have taken their place.

* Rats, I was beaten to my quotation by Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (27 August 1770 – 14 November 1831), a German philosopher, best known for attempting to elaborate a comprehensive and systematic ontology from a logical starting point.

Historical 'truth' is often little more than one man's interpretation of information.

Hear! Hear!

From a private memo to Arteis…..

As the legal representatives of the estate of the late Georg Wilhelm Hegel we formally ask you to cease and desist in your illegal attempts to secure the copyrighted words of our client.

Indeed, if you continue to attempt to pass off Herr Hegel's utterances as your own we will be forced to challenge you to a game of Scrabble. Do not expect any quarter.

signed Shyster & Crook, attorneys at law

@ XV Brigada

Of course Truth is the unattainable goal. Just because you get burned, it doesn't mean you shouldn't reach for the sun.

Arteis wrote: "The one thing people learn from history is that people don't learn from history"

Clearly, you spend of lot of time disputing your own birthday. Good luck with that !

Oddly enough, I do!!! Last birthday (just before Xmas) I had a friendly dispute with my kids on how old I was going to be on my birthday. All of us were absolutely sure we were correct. But in the end when we checked on one of those 'how old are you' internet sites, they were right (luckily, because they had me a year younger)!!! These sort of things happen when you're over 50!

Well, have them buy you a book of Winston Churchill quotes for your next one. Wasn't one of his "The truth is so important that it needs a bodyguard of lies" ?

This thread points out the importance of trying to look for "truth", whatever it may be.

TMP link

Personally, when I first read Greg Pedlows article in First Empire several years ago I thoroughly enjoyed it. I was totally impressed with the way in which a fairly minor issue from two hundred years ago could be so carefully dissected.
But then, I enjoy history. Others enjoy wargaming. I have even heard that some enjoy football!
Some think Wellington was a great hero. Some think Napoleon was a monster. I am just interested in understanding just what they did as precisely as possible.
I think that the detailed study of history is important. Others do not.
Life goes on.

Yes, I love history, and no it does not matter if Wellington received that message or not, if you are worried about the price of broccoli.

But some of us like history and wish to find the truth as far as is possible.

Some wargamers will even spend a lot of time trying to find the right colours of horses that cavalry rode.

So it takes all sorts.

And thank god we are not on Youtube, every historical clip on there seems to descend into international rivalry who won the war etc and then the Yamato was a better battle ship than Missouri and the Taliban hate us all.