"The Cities of Osgiliath and Pelargir." Topic

I found these two speculative maps of these cities:

Osgiliath:
link

Pelargir:

I wonder what these people knew about the formation of Ancient Cities?

The two cities do not look like they were built by the same people.

One has irregular streets and roads, the other a fairly regular and geometric layout.

Of course, Osgiliath would tend to have less regular streets/roads if it was the site of a prior occupation of people, and Pelargir would have more regular streets if it was a planned city from the beginning (most such cities, regardless of the people who built them tend to have regular street layouts of some form if they are built ex nihilo).

I think that when I get my new computer next quarter that I will begin to try to create some plans for these cities myself.

Perhaps the island was burned down and rebuilt.
Most descriptions depect Rome as a HUGE maze, and VERY dangerous to move about at night. Not at all like the cities Rome made once it became center of the empire.

As mentioned, Rome was a prior inhabited location, and grew organically. It also had a lot of hills that impeded regularity of streets.

There are some parts of it that are more "regularly planned" than others (particularly after the 67 fire).

But if you look at other Roman Colonies and Cities, you will see a very regular plan.

Take Ostia for instance. Even though it has some irregular streets around the periphery (the West being from previous establishment and the S and E being from new growth), it is laid out on a Regular Castrum Plan.

If you look at the Cities of Winchester, Cheshire, Lancaster, and any other city in England with the suffix "Chester" you will find a core of regularly laid out streets. The same is true of London's core, where the old Roman Castrum was laid out.

Pompeii also had a certain regularity to it, although less so that colonies established ex nihilo (from nothing), such as Timgad in what was Roman Libya (now Algeria). They had a very regular plan for all of their growth.

So… With looking at the cities and towns of Gondor, certain questions need to be asked:

• Were the cities built where there was a prior established village or town before the Númenóreans arrived?
• What was the geography like?
• Did the Númenóreans build with Concrete, as the Romans did?
• Since there seems to be a preference for circular layouts among the Númenórean cities of Gondor (and maybe Arnor, we don't know), it is possible that the Númenóreans had a regular plan for their military camps, which was used as a model for their cities, and was this "camp" radial in nature, rather than square, like the Romans (a radial plan would be easier to construct with the proper knowledge and tools, both of which the Romans Lacked – and a radial plan would be more defensible)?
• How much of an influence did the Númenóreans have over the locals where they settled. Was their influence syncretic or dominating, or domineering?

These questions, when given certain answers, will guide how the Númenóreans in exile in Gondor and Arnor built their cities and towns (which, BTW, I am convinced there were more "Cities" and "Towns" in Eriador, Gondor, and Rhovanion than were listed by Tolkien in his works given many other statements he makes about his world).

Remember, Tolkien said he was Discovering the world.

This means that technically, he had not yet discovered all there was to know about the world, and had relayed the info he did have through the eyes of vary Pastoral Hobbits, who would not have known to ask certain anthropological (even though this is not quite the term to think of things relative to Middle-earth) questions about the societies they were visiting.

They probably didn't think to ask "How big is that town?" Or "Are there other cities in the Western lands of Gondor that rival any in the Eastern parts?"

Or, "Even though Osgiliath is technically "abandoned," are there any people who have moved into the still intact buildings left there?"

And so on…

Pompeii was a greek colony city, it was laid out by them and had an agora rather than a forum etc.

I don't understand the disparaging tone. If you don't like these imaginings of largely undescribed fictitious places use ones you do. Remember no matter how meticulous your research and no matter how stringent your application you will never replicate Osgiliath and Pelargir. You can't. THEY NEVER EXISTED. Check your ticket Mr. Reed. Isn't it about time to get off the crazy train.

I for one did not find Alex's post disparaging, but rather interesting and helpful. How Tolkien's world data might be extrapolated to imagine details he did not supply is a very interesting topic to many of us, probably mostly so because Tolkien did such a good job of describing something that feels like a real world.

The posted map of Osgiliath does look like a circular radial plan, extended into an oval due to the river running down the middle.

The posted map of Pelargir looks strange to me, due to the regular triangle superimposed over the three islands in the middle. Setting that aside, I think it can be seen to match what I just said about Osgiliath, e.g., a radial plan expanded to accommodate a river in the middle.

I think the Pelargir map is from an I.C.E. Middle earth Roleplaying module.

So did Tolkien describe the city, or is this just Iron Crowns interpretation?

When we visited (in a MERP game…) this city, the Island town was ancient built by possibly Elves or Numenoreans,I can't recall, while the shore town was more recent and less organised.

It's just an interpretation.

The original settlement of Pelargir was supposed to have been by the Númenóreans. But it's location would suggest a viable settling place for people long before the Númenóreans got there.

So… Was the absorption of a pre-existing settlement by the Númenóreans syncretic or oppressive?

One would need to find an answer to this question to get an idea of how the terrain was laid out.

Also, it would be unlikely for two large rivers like this to form islands like that which were suitable for building a city upon. Not impossible, just unlikely.

I also find the conceptualization of the city to be poorly done (HERE I am being disparaging. But with a caveat to come ->), but this can be excused due to who created the map (A bunch of Role Players who tended to use various tropes associated with the medium in a period when information about such things was rather more difficult to come by than it is today – internet, wikipedia, scholarpedia, etc.).

The execution of Pelargir is pretty imaginative though (Maybe "Execution" isn't the right word. Let's see…. "Layout," that would be a better word), it would just need to have a few modifications to fit in with a few physical problems that would arise (such as changing water levels and floods, which tend to be worse along the confluence of rivers). It would probably be a good idea to look at other cities that are built near or on a confluence, but I can't immediately think of any (and I am too rushed right now to google any).

I'll have a look at Google Earth later to see if I can see how the problem was dealt with in the real world.

I think the maps are pretty awesome! For some of us who don't perhaps have the necessary skill or ability to imagine them, I for one am pretty appreciative, so thanks for posting.

I also found his post to be quite interesting.

Thanks,

John