"How do you pronounce "velites"? " Topic

Inspired by the discussion on pronouncing "Chimera", I ask this.

Back in my pre-advanced D&D days, one guy had a ranch where he raised winged horses. He pronounced them puh-GAHSS-ee. For the longest time I didn't know what he was talking about.

As far as it is approachable in English (and to forego the obligatory "throatwobbler mangrove" ) I´d say

Vay-lee-tes

Ve•li•tes?
Ve•lites?

And scoootooooom for scutum. Allen taught me that.

When I studied Latin in high school, we were taught that "v" is pronounced as a "w" and "e" is always "ay." So "way-LEE-tays." I had no reason to doubt my Latin teacher (a very intelligent and well educated woman), and haven't seen anything to the contrary so that's the way I'd say it.

We-lee-tees.

Sounds like a Chinese hors d'oeuvre

Skirmishers

I grew up with

Ve-Lites

But I never studied Latin so when I heard the learned pronouce it Vay-Lay-Tes I was enlightened. Same for Prink-a-pes were I called them Prince-ci-pes.

Having grown up with one set it takes a while for the other to take hold…lol

Cheers

Keith

For a terrible moment I thought you pronounced scutum like a vital part of a man´s anatomy…..

Ve•li•tes

Correct.

Similarly, Principes is not prin-sipes or prin-sips. It is Prin-ki-pes. 'C' is a hard sound in Latin, or so I am told.

Pronounce scutum???

When I first heard these guys, I didn't think they were saying Sherona…

YouTube link

Mike

Depends on the Latin teacher. If it's Mr Chips, it's with a K sound…

Correct.

Incorrect. As Parzival points out

When I studied Latin in high school, we were taught that "v" is pronounced as a "w"

"Wee-ni, We-di, We-ki"

The "V" is pronounced as "VEE" and not a "W" unless the speaker has some serious personal issues.

As to the exact pronunciation, you get a bit of a wide berth here. Vay-Lee-Tays is correct, but even during the period discussed, there would have been slight (and, possible great) variations depending upon where the speaker grew up and learned the language. Just look at how Germans can tell what part of Germany, or even what city you were born in by your accents. Same in England or France or Italy, etc.

But that whole "W" thing is right out except for throat-worbler mangrove types.

Parzival and Connard Sage have the right of it.

From my Collins Latin-English dictionary c1967

"Pronunciation…consonants…u,v is pronounced as w in win"

I'll take Collins, and my then Latin teachers (or should I say, teachers who tried to teach me Latin), over a bunch of randoms on the internetz. Thank you gentlemen.

As far as I recall Latin was a moribund language even in 1967. I don't think there have been any great consonantal shifts since then…

We•li•tes? :o/

We•lee•tees?

V is pronounced W and E is pronounced ay so Parzival has it as far as I know.

"Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys"

Eric

As TKindred says, the "v" vs "w" thing was probably a regionalized accent issue even back then, as was the question of how sharp your "ee" was.

The division of syllables was probably pretty standard, though, so "velites" is a three syllable word.

I think in the ancient style the short 'i' (as in 'bit') in the middle means that the accent is on the first sylable. The s at the end should be not be pronounced with the 'z' sound (e.g. 'amuse') but with more of a hissing s (e.g. 'soup')

Also, be aware that the English style of latin pronunciation should be perfectly acceptable, and anybody who insists you say 'Yoolius Kaizar' is a dick.

I believe Parzival is correct but I'm prone to saying vel-ites.

I've always gone with ve-LEE-tay. Not certain if that's correct though.

And here are a few others which I may or may not be butchering:

ky-ME-ra
ha-STA-tee
FIL-is-teen
tree-AR-ee
prin-SEE-pay
to-MAY-to
AR-jen-teen
ver-sing-a-TOR-ix
po-TAY-to
e-KEE-tay

I also recently found my son pronouncing "pseudo" as "SWAY-do". Commended him for using the word properly, but corrected his pronunciation before he embarrassed himself in public.

This is all a bit "how long is a piece of string". Latin pronunciation changed quite dramatically over the centuries (surprise, surprise). But for contemporary pron., as far as we can tell, Messrs Parzival and Sage seem to be spot on.

From my Collins Latin-English dictionary c1967

"Pronunciation…consonants…u,v is pronounced as w in win"

I'll take Collins, and my then Latin teachers (or should I say, teachers who tried to teach me Latin), over a bunch of randoms on the internetz. Thank you gentlemen.

Actually that is right. Oversight on my part. Sorry!

V is pronounced W and E is pronounced ay so Parzival has it as far as I know.

According to my Latin geek friend "e" is pronounced "eh" not "ay". Of course, this is a dead language and nobody is around from that time to tell us exactly how things are pronounced.

I'll take Collins, and my then Latin teachers (or should I say, teachers who tried to teach me Latin), over a bunch of randoms on the internetz. Thank you gentlemen.

As far as I recall Latin was a moribund language even in 1967. I don't think there have been any great consonantal shifts since then…

While Latin (like Francisco Franco) remains dead, the understanding of how it was pronounced and the dissemination of such has progressed somewhat in the past 50 years.

For anybody interested, I think this is considered the most authoratative text on the subject currently:

Vox Latina

For anybody interested, I think this is considered the most authoratative text on the subject currently:

It may well be.

We had that book at school too. It was first published in 1965 – says as much in the publishing history if you use 'Look Inside'. It didn't disagree with Collins over the pronunciation of the Latin 'u/v'' IIRC. W S Allen was quite the approved author for Classics in schools back in the day, well he was at my school.

While Latin (like Francisco Franco) remains dead, the understanding of how it was pronounced and the dissemination of such has progressed somewhat in the past 50 years.

Quite. 1965 was 47 years ago, and two years before I began learning Latin.

I hated Latin. Every second I spent trying to learn it is etched in my memory. Hence the almost total recall. So I did actually learn, in a way

Fashions change.

I think acarhj's original contribution was correct. FWIW

Phil

I was also taught V = W. Not really sure how any one would know since only written latin has existed for a very long time. Most people have at least one word that they have never heard but only seen in print (and have to suffer the hoots of derision the first time they say it).

"Julius Caesar was therefore compelled to invade Britain again the following year (54 b.c., not 56, owing to the peculiar Roman method of counting), and having defeated the Ancient Britons by unfair means, such as battering-rams, tortoises, hippocausts, centipedes, axes, and bundles, set the memorable Latin sentence, 'Veni, Vidi, Vici', which the Romans, who were all very well educated, construed correctly.
The Britons, however, who of course still used the old pronunciation, understanding him to have called them 'Weeny, Weedy, and Weaky', lost heart and gave up the struggle, thinking that he had already divided them All into Three Parts…"

What Parzival said. Or is that Par-zee-wal ?

@Sage

I'm just saying that the attitude, "That's what I learned in school 50, err, 47 years ago is good enough for me and should be good enough for anyone" is not universally shared.
FWIW, I first studied the subject 35 years ago.

Also, while it was originally published in 1965, the current edition was updated in 1989, and '.. is a reissue in paperback of the second edition of Professor Allen's highly successful book on the pronunciation of Latin in Rome in the Golden Age. In the second edition the text of the first edition is reprinted virtually unchanged but is followed by a section of supplementary notes that deal with subsequent developments in the subject.'

The reason I mention all this is that I don't have my copy with me at the office, but I *think* that the prononciatation of the last two syllables most common here – EE-TAYZ is incorrect, and should in fact be 'I-TE' with a short i and e and a silent final s.

The obligatory MP quote: 'Velease Vodulph!' then.

The nuns never had a word to say about "v" being pronounced "w".
Church Latin all the way, baby!

Church Latin all the way, baby!

Yeah, most of my direct experience with Latin has been ecumenical in nature as well. For years, I thought that the proper pronunciation of Latin sounded identical to a Boston accent!

All my students had to take Latin, and they enjoyed my attempts at pronouncing troop types. My shame has helped burn the correct pronunciation into my brain.

"WELL – ih – tays"

"PRINK – ih – pays"

"Tree- ARR – ee – aye"

"KICK- err – oh" which still seems wrong to me.

Vee-lights

'cos they're

the lights

OK, OK I know I'm wrong

We were also taught that 'V' was to be pronounced with a 'W', and that Latin was supposed to have been spoken with what sounded a Yorkshire accent.

None of us could do a Yorkshire accent though, and ended up sounding like a bunch of pirates trying to speak Latin.

In all my years I have never heard a "V" pronounced as a "W" in the Latin Mass. Not. Once.

I would hold that a Church that has spoken Latin continuously since at least the 1st century AD ought to know well and good how to pronounce it.

To my mind, that source trumps any puffed-up college tweed suit every day of the week.

V – As a classical Latinist, I was always taught that V is spoken as an English W. My wife – a Medieval Latinist – says V as English V, following the ecclesiastical model.

E – as A in FATE

L – as modern English

I – as I in MACHINE

T – as modern English

E – as A in FATE

S – as English, but with less stress because it is the final letter

Stress – The rule of thumb is that if the final letter is a single short vowel the stress falls on the antepenultimate syllable (the one before the one before the last); otherwise it's the penultimate (the one before last). So, in this case the accent will be on the "LI"

On the evidently insoluble arguments over "V" vs "W" I would make two points:

First, it did not help that the Latin alphabet has neither a U or a W. The people of Latium adopted the Greek alphabet, but rendered the Greek letter upsilon as a V, and then had the gall to use it both as a vowel (hence AVGVSTVS, not AUGUSTUS on Latin inscriptions) and a consonant (e.g. LEGIO XX VALERIA VICTRIX).

Second, the variance does not seem to impair comprehension. Whichever way one says that first letter, it is clear that both pronunciations refer to the same thing.

and then had the gall to use it both as a vowel (hence AVGVSTVS, not AUGUSTUS on Latin inscriptions) and a consonant (e.g. LEGIO XX VALERIA VICTRIX).

Probably where the "W" thing came from, though "Walereeah Weectreex" sounds like a Monty Python skit in the making.

WEL-it-Teys

Aside from the question of how actual (but now dead) Romans pronounced the word. there is the key issue of "How do I say this without sounding like an insufferable pillock?"

After all, I understand that the locals call the capital of Italy "Roma", but just drop that in conversation and see how people look at you. Or "Milano" or "Firenza". You might as well have "Pretentious Ass" tattooed on your forehead.

So, in the same way that ancient Rome's leading Pretentious Ass is called Sissero rather than Kickero in English usage, I'd say "Vel-eets" or "Vel-ee-tehs".

Except if Cicero showed up, and I'd say "Wel-eh-tes". But, actually, I'd never get a word in.

You might as well have "Pretentious Ass" tattooed on your forehea.

Well, there's proof that he's met me.

I believe Mexican Jack is correct.

A classical education is fine, but attempting to use it in a wargaming setting could result in one being labelled as a vanker.

This is a very native-english-speakers discussion.

The French language is closer to latin than the English language, so the French have always thought very natural to french-ize(?) latin words.

We say "vélites" (not hearing the final "es").

"way-LEE-tays."

But I say vellytz

Round our way the 'v' is a 'w' and the "t" is silent.

Mexican Jack gets the prize…..!