"Gothic Sci-Fi - a real subgenre?" Topic

I was pondering writing a gothic sci-fi background, but stalled when I realised I wasn't that certain of what it was. Wikipedia, FWIW, wasn't much help mainly citing vampires….

Does gothic sci-fi really exist as a serious subgenre and if so what defines it? There are the two obvious examples from inside of the gaming world, but outside it while I'm fairly widely read I don't recall reading much of it. And do Mutant Chronicles and 40K actually count or are they really just science-fantasy?

I'd say it is a usable descriptive term for a sub-genre, and I've seen it increasing in usage- along with 'Grimdark' which might even be a sub-genre of 'gothic-sci-fi' :)

While 40K fits the bill, I think Nemesis the Warlock in 2000 AD started it, although others might say the novel Dune. I've heard it called 'Baroque sci-fi' too… sounds complicated, and might turn into an argument like steampunk vs. vsf :)

Seems like some of the graphic novels in Heavy Metal magazine could be called gothic sci-fi, without immediately invoking 40K.

I think you should stop worrying about labels and do what you like.

You label your game/background how you want and let the critics decide if you've hit the mark. I agree with tochtli – don't worry about anyone labeling your project – you label it and sell it as it is and see if others agree with it. There really isn't a Gothic SciFi game other than Warhammer 40K and it is only "Gothic" in terms of the architechture – less so with the rest of the genre.

Even 40k misapplies the term, borrowing it in the same way "Gothic Horror" does. It's Gothic because a) it is set in a "dark age" of mankind, and b) lots of people wear black.

"Grimdark SF" is a bit broader, having emerged from the crucible of internet memes. Warzone/Mutant Chronicles qualifies (being a pastiche of 40k), as does Fading Suns/Noble Armada and several "horror in space" RPG attempts.

I've understood "gothic" in Warhammer 40.000 as a reference to the aesthetic more than to the content. I'm not sure it really exists in the same sense outside of the gaming subset.

"Baroque science fiction" was a term used to denote the settings of such works as Michael Moorcock's Runestaff and Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun tetralogies that tend to happen in a far future time where, roughly, "science and magic can no longer be told apart". The semifantastical nature of them applies to a great extent to Wh40k of course, according to many hardly by accident. I'm not sure if that term ever took off really, although there are a fair number of books that it could be applied to.

I generally write first then pigeonhole, but in this case I was curious about what other people actually thought the genre was. The 'formal' definition seems to place it closer to steampunk. I wouldn't count Dune as gothic sci-fi by any definition though Lynch's visuals in the film might be a bit gothic…

The 'look' of 40K does rest heavily gothic architecture and the background more than a little on late Medieval history. It and MC also have really heavy dystopian elements, which aren't a major characteristic of gothic literature. 40K probably goes beyond categorisation because borrows from so many different places. Grimdark probably covers the atheistic and mood as well as anything.

Personally I wouldn't call Fading Suns gothic sci-fi because its a pastiche on medieval romances.

And then there's Raygun Gothic which isn't Gothic at all! Its all 50's cars and diners with SF fins and neon lighting.

I'd say 40k is Gothic SF.

Mutant Chronicles, too.

It's only done by a handful of companies, but they are big enough companies to make it a genre.
-Kle.

WH40K could be considered only because of the gothic (in a totally different meaning of the word) architecture!
Re. the history of 'Gothic' literature:
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'Chaos in Carpathia' on the other hand can be quoted as 'Gothic Horror / Pulp' rules.

As for 'baroque' en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque (and 'rococo') they are so much associated with an historical period (re 'Star Wars Baroque' link )that only works such as the recent '3 Musketeers 3D' could be called 'Baroque SF'.
YouTube link

Though for me I'd be ready to extend 'baroque / rococo SF' to the 18th C.
('Lacepunk') TMP link

Btw a movie with such a Milady de Winter

and where Richelieu is a wargamer

can't be totally bad!

Why do people have to malign "Goth" so?

Why do people have to malign "Goth" so?

People malign what they don't understand… YouTube link
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As for WH40K and its clones, given that the technologies and mentalities are regressed to the level of the European Dark Ages, it can be labelled 'regressive SF' (or 'moronic SF': soldiers forget to put on the helmet of their power or terminator armor -. Though *as presented* it's not SF at all but 'Futuristic Fantasy'.
An amusing and interesting exercise is to do the job of 'archeologists of the future' and 'translate' the 'official' images and texts into something making sense, as historical facts can be reconstructed from fantasy-sounding ancient epics. For instance, to 'discover' why in the 'scientifically regressed' Imperium Orks are believed to be of fungal nature… But it's another topic entirely.

mentalities are regressed to the level of the European Dark Ages

I think that's being very unfair to the Dark Ages. Though the early Medieval approach to 'science' based on appeals to classical knowledge may have some parallel in the Ad Mech with added mysticism. Technological regression occurs in wide range of sci-fi and along with technological stasis.

French Gothic music:
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excerpt from:
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and more generally: YouTube link

No 40K connection at all

Unfortunately, technological stasis is not likely to be something that happens in an arena of constant war.

Evolutionary pressures would be too great, and the existing technology would make it far too easy for knowledge to be transmitted.

And no matter how much it is suppressed, eventually it becomes too widespread to deal with.

Just look at how badly the Inquisition actually failed at suppressing heresy in a culture that had barely mastered the printing press.

Imagine if they had telephones?

And look at the Soviet Union.

It was brought down by a Fax network. Although the Soviets didn't try to suppress innovation in most Sciences, they were pretty fanatic about attempting to suppress certain types of thought.

They failed, and in even faster time than the Inquisition.

Unfortunately, technological stasis is not likely to be something that happens in an arena of constant war.

So true! Research & development in all directions were drastically stimulated during each of both WW, and then the Cold War.
Compare the evolution of bombs, of planes, of warships, between 1919-1939 and 1940-1945.

Cell phones and the Net were instrumental in recent Arab revolutions.
To have a chance to be efficient, suppression has to come early and from a supreme, unique worldwide power, as e.g. in Keith Roberts' Pavane link -and it's a fiction.
Nothing in the GW 'fluff' suggests such kind of deliberate suppression; now, nobody ever suggested 40K is 'serious' SF!

Its almost certainly not accurate, but a heck of a lot of sci-fi, including gaming systems, include technological stasis or perhaps plateau'ing is a better term. 40K is heavy on the obsessive attempts rediscover technologies and while loosing it because of loss of the affect of wrapping it up in mysticism (something to be compared to the rationalism present in the Horus Heresy books).

Dunno. I had to have 'Grimdark' explained to me on TMP six months ago as I hadn't a clue…

I have always called 40k Fantasy SF as it's patently not ment to be taken literally (or seriously, I would suggest).

But I'll stick with my orignal comment: Dunno

John T

Its almost certainly not accurate, but a heck of a lot of sci-fi, including gaming systems, include technological stasis or perhaps plateau'ing is a better term.

Most games are snapshots in time, so there won't be a lot of progress showing. The year 4245 simply wasn't that productive.

There is also the Singularity Effect. Beyond a certain point both the authors and their readers/players are going to have trouble envisioning what the technology would be like and what effects it would have on society.

(The one game that embraces the concept of the Singularity and attempts to show us what lies beyond it fails to do so, by definition; if we can imagine past it in extensive useful detail, it wasn't a Singularity.)

Fiction that gets out there can work with the right author, but games have to be able to account for the actions of players in ways that the players and referees can comprehend.

Quite a lot of games these days have a story arc, but the point about the 'singularity effect' is probably well founded. And probably wouldn't make for particularly interesting games. Turning a SMurf company in to sushi with a baseball-sized combat drone and couple knife missiles is one time gag.

Grimdark clearly seems to borrow from the idea of cosmicism, but does it need a supernatural component?