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"A little help on Austrian Pre-1798 Uniforms" Topic


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DukeWacoan Supporting Member of TMP Fezian19 Jan 2012 5:32 p.m. PST

I have some real specific questions I'd appreciate some help on. All are for Austrian in Italy in 1796-97. I am set on the "Cut" of the uniform and correct type of hat, but I am at a loss on Officer/Musician/Standard coloring.

Here are my questions –

MAHONEY JAGERS – These are in Jager uniforms with Tyrolian hats. Officer uniform is same cut as standard German officer in Bicorne. My source has this Jager unit has Light Grey uniforms with Green Cuff/Collar/Facings.

Question – What coat/pant color for the Officer?
Question – Color of plume/feather on Tyrolian hat?

FREIKORPS GYULAI – these are in Grenzer cut uniforms with Kasket. My source has them with Brown coats with Red Cuff/Collar/Facings and with Blue Hungarian pants. The Officer/Drummer/Standard are all in Hungarian cut uniforms.

Question – What color coats for Officer/Drummer/Standard?

CROATIAN GRENZERS – These units have Grenzer cut uniforms in Klobuk hat. My source says the coats are Brown Coats with Red Cuff/Collar/Facing BUT with White pants.

Question – arguments about the White pants?
Question – What color coats for Officer/Drummer/Standard?

STAF-DRAGOONS REGT – this specific unit is shown by one of my sources (for Rivoli) as Green Coat with Black cuff/collar/facing, Light Grey Pants. I'm guessing all other Dragoons of the period are Green Coat with Red Facings, White pants. Thoughts?

I'm getting ready for painting and really appreciate some guidance on these specifics.

A Twiningham20 Jan 2012 6:29 a.m. PST

I thought dragoon coats were white during this period. My books are at home though, and the Vinkhuijzen collection sheds no light.

DukeWacoan Supporting Member of TMP Fezian20 Jan 2012 7:54 a.m. PST

You're correct. I miswrote that. The Dragoons are white with Bicornes.

A Twiningham20 Jan 2012 11:19 a.m. PST

Have you looked in Tranie and Carmignola's book? If not I have a friend with a copy and I can ask him if it sheds any light on these units.

DukeWacoan Supporting Member of TMP Fezian20 Jan 2012 12:00 p.m. PST

I don't have that book. I've not been able to find anything that indicates the command for these units other than they were regulation. I think a regulation drummer/fifer/officer in White coat might look odd with Brown coat troopers.

A Twiningham20 Jan 2012 12:54 p.m. PST

I sent a query to my friend. I'll let you know if he gets back to me.

Duc de Limbourg20 Jan 2012 3:21 p.m. PST

link gives info about the stabsdragoner regiment
The TMP "Austrian Stabs-dragoner" also discus these.

DukeWacoan Supporting Member of TMP Fezian20 Jan 2012 3:24 p.m. PST

That's very helpful. It confirms Green with Black facings. Shade of green changes in 1798.

A Twiningham20 Jan 2012 5:10 p.m. PST

Unfortunately Tranie only had a plate for a Mahoney private.

XV Brigada20 Jan 2012 5:12 p.m. PST

Anybody know how to contact Dave Hollins? He would be able to give chapter and verse.

Duke of Plaza Toro20 Jan 2012 9:29 p.m. PST

This is a somewhat murky subject and yes – we need Dave Hollins (what a shame he has been driven off…). As far as I an aware, there is little evidence around to answer some of these questions definitively, but I will try to give some pointers –

MAHONEY JAGERS – These are in Jager uniforms with Tyrolian hats. Officer uniform is same cut as standard German officer in Bicorne. My source has this Jager unit has Light Grey uniforms with Green Cuff/Collar/Facings.
Question – What coat/pant color for the Officer?

The Mahoney Jäger is part of the Freikorps prior to 1798. Freikorps were not subject to the official uniform regulations to the quite same extent as the regular army and the Grenz were. I don't recall ever seeing a good picture source for Jäger officers for this early period, but there are a few pictures showing other Freikorps officers wearing all manner of uniforms. Some of these are quite outlandish but they are usually at least based on the uniform colours of the other ranks – so for the Jäger I would go with grey coats and pants like the rank and file.

Question – Color of plume/feather on Tyrolian hat?

I would go with green, which appears to have been pretty standard for all Jäger units so I don't see why Mahoney's should be any different.
FREIKORPS GYULAI – these are in Grenzer cut uniforms with Kasket. My source has them with Brown coats with Red Cuff/Collar/Facings and with Blue Hungarian pants. The Officer/Drummer/Standard are all in Hungarian cut uniforms.
Question – What color coats for Officer/Drummer/Standard?

Drummers (aside perhaps from some additional embellishments which would be a matter of guesswork) and standard bearers (usually senior NCO's) would have all worn uniforms the same as the other ranks – so brown coats. Officers are more difficult to establish (my general observations regarding Freikorps officers in my answer to the Mahoney Jäger questions apply here as well). So I would suggest they wore a colour scheme similar to the rest of the regiment.
CROATIAN GRENZERS – These units have Grenzer cut uniforms in Klobuk hat. My source says the coats are Brown Coats with Red Cuff/Collar/Facing BUT with White pants.
Question – arguments about the White pants?

My understanding is that after various schemes and quick fire changes requiring white, dark blue, or sky blue trousers/pants (of either ‘Croatian' or ‘Hungarian' cut – and depending on the Military District the Grenz regiment hailed from) – ALL Grenz regiments were instructed to wear sky blue Hungarian style trousers/pants from 1783, irrespective of whether they were wearing the frontier Hausmontur (Frontier uniform with the brown coat), or the Feldmontur (campaign uniform with the white coat). They usually had yellow lace knots (sometimes yellow and black) at the top of each thigh.

However, always remember that the Austrian uniform issue and replacement system was very slow and inconsistent. New uniforms were only distributed at c.33% of the unit personnel and at two year intervals! By all accounts there was a lack of uniformity in appearance even within individual Grenz companies which was not finally remedied until about 1804-05. Regiments in the Croatian Districts for example were supposed to be wearing white pants up to 1781, when they were ordered into dark blue pants, which were then changed again to sky blue in 1783! It is not impossible then (in fact quite likely) that some units would have worn a scatter of white, dark blue and sky blue pants within the same battalion, but for the period 1792-1798 I would go with predominantly sky blue.

Question – What color coats for Officer/Drummer/Standard?

Once again – Grenz drummers and standard bearers would have worn uniforms the same colour as the rank and file apart from the usual musician add-ons and NCO rank distinctions. The problem here – as outlined above – is that the unit might well have been wearing a mixture of white and brown coats, so "same colour as the rank and file" isn't as straight forward as it first sounds!

However, Grenz officers (unlike the Freikorps officers discussed above) WERE subject to fairly strict uniform regulations and we are on more solid ground here. They were required to wear regulation uniforms just like their brethren in the line infantry. So their long coats would have been white, with collar, cuffs and waist coat in the Grenz regimental facing colour (NB the waist belt was still white worn over the coloured waistcoat). This was supposed to be the case even when the rank and file were on frontier duty and wearing the brown coats of the Hausmontur – officers were still supposed to wear white. Officer trousers/pants were originally white as well, but in 1783 they were instructed to wear sky blue Hungarian style trousers, often with lace or tape knots on the top of each thigh picked out in yellow/gold or white/silver depending on the regiment's button colour.

STAF-DRAGOONS REGT – this specific unit is shown by one of my sources (for Rivoli) as Green Coat with Black cuff/collar/facing, Light Grey Pants. I'm guessing all other Dragoons of the period are Green Coat with Red Facings, White pants. Thoughts?

Already answered by Duc de Limbourg I believe.

I hope some of that helps. The sources for this material are very patchy and I don't have access to all the German language sources that others do, so someone might be able to add more info or correct me. However, I'm reasonably confident about most of the above.

John Chadderton
Eureka Miniatures

von Winterfeldt21 Jan 2012 4:29 a.m. PST

The Stabsdragoner had a dark blue uniform orignally but this was change to grass green due to the confusion created with French cavalry.
Artaria gives already in 1792 Stabsdragoner with light green coats – or to say grass green – black facings, brass buttons, white breeches, heavy cavarly boots, in 1799 a light dragoon regiment was fromed from the Stabsdragoner

As for Grenzer – there were no brown coats in the French revolution and neither white pants in the field, they had white coats as well as blue (could vary in shade) – long trousers like Hungarian infantry
About headdress – there is discussion on this – my conclusion is that the Grenzer did wear the Kaskett while the Grenzscharfschützen did wear the Klobuk.
Officers etc white coat as well.
About the trousers question – no true contemporary sources show white for field dress – Artaria as well as prints in the Royal Belgian Army museum at Brussels show them in blue, and also white coats.
For Mahoney Jäger see black and white plate in
Dave Hollins (who else?) : Austrian Auxiliary Troops 1792 – 1816

Duc de Limbourg21 Jan 2012 5:43 a.m. PST

Von Winterfeldt, I would haev thought that the Kaskett would be better suited for scharfschützen. Regarding the trousers, Hollins show a grenzer in white pants so there must be a source for it (i think)

von Winterfeldt21 Jan 2012 8:28 a.m. PST

yes there is a source – a print of Gerrasch and also they should have worn it – initially – but all prints from 1787 onwards agree on blue trousers as well as white coats.
As for Klobuk, as well as Artaria and also the Berner manuscript show Grenzscharfschützen (In contrast to the modern Ottenfeld) in Klobuk but the ususal Grenzer with Kaskett, for that reason I would follow en suite.

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