"Churchill Tanks, What units and why?" Topic

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I am looking at putting together a wwii force for northern europe in 1944 to 1945 and I am a bit confused. I see in the Flames of War books that the Churchill was in three tank platoons rather than the normal British four tank platoons. They also seem to be from a different type of unit but the books aren't very clear.

I am hoping that someone can tell me what sort of units did the Churchills served with, why they had fewer tanks to a platoon and if there were any other tanks that were treated differently.

Thanks.

I just finished up Featherstone's Tank Battles in Miniature Vol IV. I was under the impression that they were using mixed battalions. The Churchills seemed to be deployed in Companies supporting lighter tanks like Shermans and the like. There was no organization so I don't know for sure.

For starters, British tanks were not organised into platoons and companies but into troops and squadrons.

In the early war, each troop consisted of three tanks. At a later point, some of the tanks were organised into four tank troops – mainly the Shermans, with one Firefly per troop – while others maintained the original three tank troop.

As for higher level organisation, the Churchills were not typically part of the armoured divisions, but instead belonged to independent tank units used for infantry support.

Churchill tanks were infantry, or 'I' tanks. They were issued to the Army Tank Brigades designed to provide close support to the infantry arm, and thus were not found in Armoured Divisions.

The three tank Troop (originally termed a section in I tank units) wasn't actually a reduced strength unit; three tanks per Troop was the usual organisation for British units, only changing in those Regts where the Sherman 17-pr 'Firefly' had to be incorporated, leading to a reorganisation of the Squadrons into four Troops of four rather than five Troops of three.

A Churchill Regt had a RHQ of four tanks, HQ Sqn with (from 1942) a Recce Tp (originally carriers, by late 1943 11 Stuarts), and an intercommunication Tp with scout cars. The three fighting Sqns each had a HQ with four tanks (two fitted as close support variants with howitzer armament) and five Tps, each of three tanks. All 58 'proper' tanks were Churchills.

There was an mixed org used in Italy with 21 Tank Bde (?) which saw them using Shermans to fill out one Sqn and due to shortage of replacement vehicles.

Wonder if RMD posted all this and more before i hit submit…

Gary

Wot he said… ;o)

Blimey, beat RMD and got pipped by GB!

Everything you ever wanted to know about Churchills can be found on Gerry Chester's excellent North Irish Horse site:

northirishhorse.net

If you have a look at the orbats there, you can see how the mixed 'Italy' organisation worked. This only came about due to a lack of Churchills in the Mediterranean Theatre in 1944, as the bulk of Churchill production was being used to build regiments for the Normandy Landings.

Ideally there would have been more independent Tank Brigades equipped with Churchill, but production couldn't keep up with demand, so the majority infantry-support tank was the Sherman.

As has been said, the normal British Troop organisation was three tanks. The four-tank Troop organisation only came about due to the introduction of 17pdr tanks (Firefly & Challenger) and only having enough of those tanks to equip roughly one tank per troop. The idea was that the troop could still work its way forward as a three-tank troop, while leaving the 17pdr tank at the back to provide overwatch. When Comet and Centurion came along they stuck with the four-tank Troop for a time, but sometime after the war reverted to three-tank Troop.

Well, at least Gary provided the most detailed description!

Gary

Thank you very much indeed. Could I ask a few questions just to clarify please. How were the tanks allocated to the infantry, was it one Brigade into a Division or something like that.

I haven't come across the close support tank, was that a Churchill as well?

Also, how was the recce troop of Stuarts organised, and what is the intercommunication tp?

Sorry to appear ignorant. I appreciate your help.

Stuarts were organised as a very large 'troop' of 11 tanks – effectively a squadron in its own right and sometimes referred to as such. It was organised into an HQ of 2x Stuart. and three Sections of 3x Stuart. Sometimes the Section strength was reduced to 2 and the overall strength to 8. Some units also used a proportion of turretless Stuart 'Jalopies'.

R Mark Davies

Thank you very much indeed. Can you tell me where to find the orbats on the NIH site, I can't seem to find them.

How were the tanks allocated to the infantry, was it one Brigade into a Division or something like that.

Being independent brigades, they were not intended to be permanently allocated to any division. Rather, they would be ideally used to support divisions as needed – for example used to support important offensives.

I haven't come across the close support tank, was that a Churchill as well?

In a Churchill squadron, that would be a Churchill with a 3.7" close support howitzer, intended to fire primarily HE and smoke.

Similar close support versions were also available for a number of other British infantry and cruiser tanks.

The Churchill Close Support Tank was the Mk V, which was a Mk IV (identified by the rounded, all-cast turret and square side-hatches), but equipped with a short-barelled 95mm howitzer.

Mk IV (6pdr) – no muzzle brake, only a small muzzle counterweight:

Mk V (95mm CS) – heavy muzzle counterweight:

Mk VI (75mm) – note the muzzle brake:

There was an experiment with 'Mixed' Divisions beginning in 1942 and lasting a while on into 1943. In selected Divs (five?) the third Inf Bde was replaced by a Tank Bde, giving the formation its own armoured support. Problem was the loss of a full Inf Bde rendered the Mixed Div less combat worthy, and only 4th Division saw action under the org (in North Africa, early 1943). After that experiment they returned to separate Tank Bdes, who would shuttle around between formations as required. There were never enough for one Bde per Div. 21AG had seven or eight Inf Divs on average and only three Tk Bdes, while Italy had four or five Inf Divs plus (four?) Indian Divs and only two Tk Bdes. Each theatre also converted one Tk Bde to specialised armour during 1944 to make things even more complicated!

The close support Churchill used a howitzer main armament, i want to say 94-mm but it was probably 95-mm, similiar role to the 105-mm Sherman. The Stuart tp was as for an Armd Regt, generally handled as three Secs of three tanks each, plus two for Tp HQ. Intercom Tp had scout cars (eight by 1943 if memory serves) for use in extending the radio net and running messages. SHQ also had a scout car for liaison work.

Gary

Griefbringer's not quite right re the 3.7-inch howitzer. That was the armament of an early war Close Support tank such as an A9 CS or A10 CS, but was obsolete by the time the Churchill came along.

The early models of Churchill (Mk I, Mk I CS & Mk II CS) used a 3-inch CS howitzer, which was a bit more effective than the earlier 3.7, but not as effective as the 75mm gun which became the standard tank gun from 1942 onwards.

Churchill Mk I – 2pdr in turret and 3-inch CS howitzer in hull:

Churchill Mk I CS – weapons reversedm with 2pdr in hull and 3-inch in turret (bizarre):

Churchill Mk II – 2pdr in turret and 3-inch replaced by MG:

Churchill Mk II CS – two 3-inch howitzers (even more bizarre and so rare I don't have a photo to hand, though I think there is one on the NIH website, as Gerry Chester crewed one)

Churchill Mk III – 6pdr and no CS version:

Does it make any difference that some of the Churchill units had been infantry regiments, not cavalry?

Re units: The three Tank Brigades operating Churchills in NW Europe were 6th Guards, 31st & 34th Tank Brigades. Each had three regiments, though one regiment (141st RAC) of 31st Tank Brigade was equipped with Crocodiles rather than regular Churchills and often operated entirely separately from its parent brigade.

31st Tank Brigade was disbanded just after Normandy and was reformed under 79th Armoured Division as an all-Crocodile Brigade.

The 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers (79th Armoured Division) was also equipped with Churchill variants – mainly Mk IV AVRE, but also ARKs and the odd gun tank as command/OP vehicles.

In North Africa/Italy the Churchill formations were 21st & 25th Tank Brigades, though as Gary says, 25th Tank Brigade was transformed into 25th Assault Engineer Brigade in late 1944.

Hoosierclyde,

None whatsoever. In fact, the vast majority of Churchill units were either RTR or ex-infantry RAC & Guards regiments. The only exceptions to this were the North Irish Horse in 25th Tank Brigade (later 21st Tank Brigade when the 25th became 'Funnies') and the 1st Fife & Forfar Yeomanry, who were a very late addition to the all-Crocodile 31st Tank Brigade in November 1944.

A personal thanks to both R Mark Davies and Gary Kennedy for all the help they have and continue to provide those of us struggling with our British forces. I continue to print out your replies and use them as resources.

Thank you gentlemen.

I'm interested in the general paint scheme of Churchills in North Africa and Italy.

I'd always thought that they were more Khaki than Green like the Normandy Chuchills. I subsequently painted my three North Irish Horse Chuchills with a Khaki base. Before I expand them from a troop to a full squadron I'd like to make sure I'm getting the base color correct.

You're welcome, but we haven't got into the REALLY sticky area of who used what types of Churchill yet… ;o)

Just don't make the commonly-made wargamers' error of having whole squadrons of heavily-armoured Mk VIIs (unless they're Crocodiles). Mk VIIs remained very rare indeed outside Croc units – usually no more than 2 or 3 per squadron, if they had any at all.

Each squadron also retained a proportion of 6pdr tanks (mainly Mk IV with some Mk III soldiering on) until the end of the war, as the 6pdr's armour-penetration performance exceeded that of the 75mm – particularly after the introduction of 6pdr APDS rounds.

Oh, one I forgot was the Mk IV (NA 75), which was a Mk IV retrofitted with the Sherman's 75mm and used by 21st & 25th Tank Brigades in the Med – each squadron had a troop or two for a time during 1944.

Von Burge,

They were initially painted the standard (for the time) camouflage colour of No.3 Green, which is quite a bright green – brighter than the later SCC 13 Olive Drab that was used by Normandy. Virtually everything arriving in Tunisia was painted that colour. However, like much of 1st Army, they did camouflage them in-theatre with arid camouflage colours – see the Mk III photo above. David Fletcher states that this colour was the 'Light Mud' camouflage colour (I forget the number). If you google for these colours along with the name 'Mike Starmer', you should find his recipes for creating these colours with Humbrol and/or Vallejo paints.

Note that a lot of regiments in Italy went through a process of repainting everything SCC 13 Olive Drab from late 1944 onwards. I don't know if the Churchill Brigades did this (though that NA75 above does look somewhat uniforml in shade and very dark compared to its surroundings), but the NIH site might say somewhere.

Thanks much. Think I'll be orderiing Starmer's Italy booklet before I do any more.

For starters, British tanks were not organised into platoons and companies but into troops and squadrons.

I'm American. Squadrons are for airplanes!

Ahem, Mechanized Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadrons ring any bells?! And they were as big as Battalions, and their Troops were equal to Companies, therefore muscling in on the traditional British are of confusing military nomenclature…

Sorry, I meant SCC 15 Olive Drab not SCC 13. SCC 13 is Jungle Green.

Griefbringer's not quite right re the 3.7-inch howitzer.

Ooops, thanks for correction, indeed there seems to have been no 3.7-inch howitzer used on Churchills, which utilised either a 3-inch or 95 mm howitzer for close support role.

what an excellent thread…pretty tanks RMD , pretty in deed..can you tell us a little about them . make etc?

Blimey, beat RMD and got pipped by GB!

Must be time to play the lottery!

@acarjh: Squadrons are for Cavalry units and ships, too.

Mixed Divisions:

1st – 34th Tank Brigade (but never fought with it)
3rd – 33rd Tank Brigade (but never fought with it)
4th – with 21st Tank Brigade
43rd – with 25th Tank Brigade (but never fought with it)
However the same source (Duncan Crow – Profile Bok says the 31st was alloted to the 43rd as well
46th – with 137th Tank Brigade (converted from Infantry Br. of same number).

As said above, only the 4th fought as a mixed Div.

Gary

My recollection is that a squadron is essentially a company and a troop is a platoon.

I thought that RTR used infantry nomenclature, is that not so?

And for R Mark – how many of the 6pdr Churchills in Normandy would have been up armoured to Mk VII standard with aplique armour?

And for the original poster, RMD has hinted at it, but the Armoured Brigades (as distinct from the Tank Brigades) which were used for infantry division support used an organisation similar to the tank brigades but with Shermans.

Also, a "normalällocation was 1 Bde per div of tank support, coming down as low as one tank per inf pln.

I have read, but cannot confirm that whilst Churchills tended to go in with the infantry, there was a tendency for shermans to hang back and shoot the infantry onto the target.

Yes, R Mark, what was the number/proportion of Churchill Xs, XIs, XLTs, and XILTs in the units? Oh and have you got confirmation as to whether the VIIIs were used in combat or not?

Also, I have read that some of the Xs and XIs were actually given Mk VII turrets, with some retaining the 6pdr – how many and what units?

Inquiring minds want to know…..

As noted above nice discussion.

Cardinal, I can't claim them. They're just the first photos that popped up on Google which clearly showed the differences between marks.

Cornelius, the 31st Tank Brigade was assigned to 53rd (Welsh) Mixed Division from Sep 42 to Sep 43.

As far as I've been able to ascertain, no Mk VIII+ variants saw active service in NW Europe. They absolutely definitely did not see service in Normandy! Earlier marks were not upgraded in the field with applique kits – it was a factory job (and one that wasn't done quickly enough). I've not seen any strength returns, histories, war diaries, memoirs or anecdotes that mention them and there is certainly no photographic evidence for them ever being issued to units before the end of the war.

Sorry Grizzly, but you'll just have to make do with standard Mk III & IV (although they did stick lots of track-links on them).

The RTR did initially use infantry nomenclature, but quickly changed to cavalry nomenclature, as it was a pain in the backside when people in the same division/brigade were using different terms to describe the same thing.

it was a pain in the backside when people in the same division/brigade were using different terms to describe the same thing.

Harrrrumph!
That is what the British Army is all about!

Thanks to everyone for the really detailed answers.

So where where the Crocodiles then? Were they in special AVRE units or mixed in with the above?

Crocs were all part of 79th Division and parcelled out at need.

141 RAC the first Croc Regt actually arrived in Normandy as part of 31st Tank Brigade which was then incorporated into 79 AD later in the campaign.

As Nigel says, 141 RAC belonged to 31st Tank Brigade in Normandy and not to 79th Armoured Division. As mentioned above, 141 RAC was virtually an independent entity, being divorced from its parent brigade and allocated throughout 21 Army Group where needed throughout the campaign – even to the Americans at Brest.

141 RAC only became part of 79th Armoured Division in the Autumn of 1944. 31st Tank Brigade was then re-established within 79th Armoured Division with three Croc regiments – 7 RTR, 141 RAC and 1 Fife & Forfar Yeomanry.

Nevertheless, the myth persists that they were always a part of 79th Armoured Division (ditto Kangaroos).

In Italy (if memory serves), a Croc squadron was formed in 25th Tank Brigade during the latter part of 1944 and shortly before the brigade was re-roled to Assault Engineers.

Ah, Churchills, one of my favourite topics, however I see that the salient points have mainly been addressed.

"How were the tanks allocated to the infantry, was it one Brigade into a Division or something like that."

As mentioned above, they were parcelled out as Corps/Army assets to indivdual divisions. Most commonly at a ratio of one one tank brigade per infantry division, but not always, sometimes it was just one regiment to a division. At the sharp end the common ratio was one tank troop per infantry company.

On some occasions the Tank Brigade (or elements thererof)was used as the core of a Corps mobile group, such as the ever fascinating adventures of 'Clarkeforce' (34th Tank Brigade under BG 'Wahoo' Clarke plus various attachments from either 43rd or 49th Inf Divs) in the Netherlands in October 1944. 'Tank Tracks' by Peter Beale gives an interesting account of 9th RTRs time with Clarkeforce (amongst lots of other stuff).

Text of "Tank Tracks" and extra bits at
link

Late to the party again! Another vote for Gerry Chester's excellent site though. BTW he comments that the 'mixed' Churchill /Sherman squadrons beloved of wargamers were only in existence for around a fortnight as they just didn't work.

Churchills (particularly the funnies) also supported US units from time to time.

David Fletcher's Mr Churchills Tank is the definitive tome if you're trying to sort out Churchill variants. The Osprey (also by DF) is quite good & a lot cheaper though!

Here's his orbats for the NIH at various stages during the campaign. Note that the Shermans stayed on, but were relegated to the Recce Squadron (along with lots of Churchills… recce in a Churchill VII??!!!):

link

Note that while it's true that NIH only mixed Shermans and Churchills for a short time in May-June 1944, other regiments did things differently. In an attack mounted by 145 RAC in September 1944, it is recorded that the assaulting squadron consisted of two troops of Churchills and two of Shermans.

Thanks to everyone who posted, you have been really helpful.

Pogle

A quick question on Churchill armour…

As I understand it the earlier (and most-used) MkI to MkVI Churchills had maximum 4 inches (102mm) of armour, then the MkVII (which were rare) had 6 inches (152mm) max armour.

I vaguely remember reading somehwere that (prior to Normandy?) the 'early' Churchills were up-armoured to 120mm. Any idea if this was a) true, b) common?

Oh and as a bonus question were Churchill gun tanks ever used to supporty the Canadians?

While the upgrade-programme was instigated in mid-1944, converting Mk III, IV, V & VI tanks to Mk IX, X & XI tanks, it was very slowly implemented and as mentioend above, I've seen no evidence that these upgraded versions (or indeed the factory-fresh Mk VIII) were ever delivered soon enough to see active service in the war.

Re the Canadians; I did research that question with regard to Normandy and can say with some confidence that a single Canadian unit was supported by a single squadron of 9 RTR for a single day! :o)

After Normandy I'd need to dig through the histories, but I seem to remember that Churchills gave support to the Canadians at Boulogne and Dunkirk. I can't think of any other occasions off the top of my head. Of course in Italy the relationship between 25th Tank Brigade and the Canadians became very close indeed and 25th Tanks carried a gold Maple Leaf on their brigade sign thereafter.

Thanks R Mark – a pleasure to read your posts as usual

Ah, OK, I think I get it now, so 4 inches all round apart from the occasional Mk VII then.

Cheers on the Canadians (naturally you guessed I wasn't talking about Dieppe!). So it's at least plausible, but only a few obvious instances of Churchill gun tanks Rgts/Bdes supporting the Canadians in Normandy. Some later, and close co-operation in Italy.

Many thanks

That's about the size of it. Delivery of Mk VIIs to regular Churchill regiments was very poor due to the demands placed by the Crocodile regiments (and Italy Croc squadron), who had first call on Mk VII production. For example, 9 RTR (31st Tank Brigade) only received its first ten Mk VIIs on 13th July 1944, as part of the post-Hill 112 replacement draft. These went to squadron commanders and some troop commanders.

Mk VII numbers remained extremely low, with most regiments having less than ten of them throughout.

As mentioned above, they were exclusively used as officers' mounts in NW Europe. However, in Italy, most Churchill regiments massed theirs as a full Mk VII troop in each squadron. Gerry Chester even records that the NIH Recce Squadron had a full troop of Mk VIIs!

I suppose in mountain warfare a Churchill would make a good recce tank, particularly a Mk VII