"Prussian Artillery: foreign-made guns in 1815?" Topic

The Perrys are offering their Prussian (Foot) Artillery sets with British and French 6pdr options as well as the Prussian ordnance.

Now, Hofschröer does list a couple of batteries that had British guns, but does not mention French ones being used. The only other mention I have found is for one heavy battery in 1813 using French 12pdrs. One could also suppose that Horse Battery no. 20, being the former Berg artillery contingent, may have used French guns; according to Haythornthwaite they still wore their old Berg uniforms.

So, does anybody know which Prussian batteries used captured French guns after 1813, and specifically in the 1815 campaign?

The 12pfündige Batterie Nr. 19, formed in May 1815, had 6 French 12pounder guns and 2 Prussian 10pounder howitzers. They were assigned to VI army corps and didn't se action in 1815, though.

The Reitende Batterie Nr. 20 had French guns (for lack of other sources probably including the two howitzers) and waggons:

link

Many thanks Oliver – I was hoping you'd pick this up…

Unfortunately, these two batteries are the only evidence I have got at hand right now. I bet there were other batteries with French guns or howitzers as well.

The 6pfündige Batterie Nr. 32, formed in "late summer" 1813, was reorganised as Reitende Batterie Nr. 17 in April 1815.

In December 1813 and on 7 June 1815 it is reported they were equipped with Erobertes Geschütz (conquered guns and howitzers). This battery was assigned to VI army corps.

The following I wrote in DDS (2007) Napoleonic Artillery, Crowood Press.

The following were probably on British block trails.
11th HA – 8x British 6-pdrs (no howitzers) – British uniforms
14th HA (formed from Fritz HA in Mar 1815) – 6 x British 6-pdrs
15th HA – Probably British HA
16th HA (formed from the 27th 6-pdr FA) – 6x British 6-pdrs and 2x 5.5in How
17th HA – British 6-pdrs.

Russian Guns
18th and 19th HA were still armed with Russian 6-pdrs and 10-pdr HA Unicorns.

French 12-pdrs Equipment (AnXI)
4th 12-pdr Battery – 6x French 12-pdrs and 2x Prussian 10-pdr Howitzers
5th 12-pdr Battery – French AnXI 12-pdrs and AnXI 24-pdr Howitzers
7th 12-pdr Battery – 3x AnXI 12-pdrs and 1 AnXI 24-pdrs howitzers
19th 12-pdr Battery – 6 French 12-pdrs and 2x Prussian 10-pdr howitzers

The problem with the French AnXI 6-pdrs (95.8mm) were that they were a larger calibre than the Prussian (94mm) or British 6-pdrs (93.2mm). The 6-pdr shot was
French = 94mm
British = 89mm
Prussian = 90.4mm

There was no problem with the French 12-pdrs. The French 6.4in Long Port howitzers could not be used as the ammunition of the Prussian 10-pdr was not compatible.

HA with French AnXI 6-pdrs
20th HA – AnXI 6-pdrs (probably lacked howitzers}

There is still much more needs to be discovered in this area.
Stephen

According to Vogel, Theilname …, pp. 73, 75, the 12pfündige Batterie Nr. 4 received, when it was formed in July 1813, two Prussian 10pounder howitzers and 6 guns, which had been taken by Czerniczew on 30 May 1813 at Halberstadt from the Westphalian general Ochs.

The guns had prussian barrels on French gun-carriages with limbers which were made to sit on. For the howitzers Prussian ammunition waggons, for the guns British ammunition waggons.

Strotha, Geschichte der dritten Artillerie-Brigade, pp. 121, 124, gives for the 12pfündige Batterie Nr. 7, when it was formed in January 1814, one Prussian 10pounder howitzer and seven 12pounder French guns. All ammunition waggons were French. In July 1814, the Prussian howitzer and one French gun were exchanged with two (probably Prussian ?) 10pounder howitzers on French gun-carriages.

Dr. Summerfield,

many thanks for this exhaustive list, and for the intriguing detail about crucial calibre differences.

RB Nr.11 I seem to recall was part of Bülow's IV Corps reserve, so it'll will give me an excuse to field a RHA crew with my Prussian army – i know the King didn't like it but still…

The "Russian" batteries would be great to model as well. Too bad they were with Thielmann at Wavre (along with the former Russo-German Legion infantry and hussars)! Might still "do" them for Ligny.

Having foreign made guns, other than the gun Carriage what would be the difference between the French, British and Prussian guns? Could you use the same munitions as long as they are the same size? If not seem like they were creating a logistic nightmare for somebody.

Stephen has already given the answer in his post.

The "pound" had a different weight in every nation. The Prussian Pfund for example weighted 467,711 grammes.

However, by the way, a 6pounder gun didn't mean that the cannonball was weighing exactly 6 pounds, but it had a diameter which was equivalent to an idealised, "perfectly" cast, cannonball.

For example, still in 1829 a Prussian "12pounder cannonball" was allowed to have an actual weight between 11 and 13 Prussian pounds (but not less nor more) when arriving from the cast, whereas its diameter definitely had to have 4,36 Zoll (inches), this is: 11,403 cm. Not 4,35 and neither 4,37 Prussian inches.

link

Oliver
So if I understand what you are saying you could have mixed nationality made guns. You just had to figure out the size of the munitions that would work. Like your example above the French 12 pounders would be the same size as the Prussian 10 pounders?

Dear Reeves
The 10-pdr was a howitzer and not a cannon. The 10-pdr was a stone weight rather than iron weight used by guns so was 170mm whereas French 12-pdr was 121mm and the Prussian 12-pdr was 119mm.

In effect French Ammunition did not fit British or Prussian guns as they were too big. The British and Prussian ammunition was too small for the French guns (too big windage). British and Prussian Ammunition was about the same.

Stephen

Summerfield

I understood that the Howitzer and cannon munitions were different I was just using that as a example even though it was a bad one to figure out what was being said. I am not a good writer so I hope this question can be understood. How difficult was it to keep an Prussian Artillery unit that was using French guns with munitions? Seems to me that would be more of a headache then it was worth. Also could the Prussian and British guns use the same munitions? That's probably how I should have asked in the first place. :)

Thanks!
Larry

Dear Reeves
I would strongly recommend you reading Dawson et el. (2007) Napoleonic Artillery, Crowood Press that covers this area reasonably well.
link

Other aspects have been covered by the Smoothbore Ordnance Journal.
link

The area of logistics is often ignored by historians.
Stephen

Thanks for the links!

"you could have mixed nationality made guns. You just had to figure out the size of the munitions that would work"

Yes, that is why artillerymen had calipers so that they could verify the actual size of foreign ammunition. Bear in mind that these are all smooth bore pieces and a certain amount of windage is necessary to allow for the iron straps attaching the shot to the sabot and powder bag.

Dear Larry
The Prussians captured large stocks of French Ammunition. The French Equipment were captured with their supporting caissons.

It was important to check the shot being used. Even as late as the Peninsular, the British supplied with French ammunition blew up some 24-pdrs as the shot got stuck in the barrels.

Yes the British and Prussian shot could have been used in either. Care needed to be made upon the powder. Remember that the British used cylinder powder that was over 30% or more powerful than European powder. Hence the British were able to used reduced charges.

Stephen

Stephen
Good stuff and thanks!

I also have the 20th Fuss batterie as British armed, along with the 25, 26, and,27 Landwehr batteries, the 28, 29 and 30 Fuss batteries. And the 13th Reitende was British armed and uniformed. But this may not be in 1815.

Some additional info on the "Landwehr" batteries:

link

A compilation from strength returns of the Prussian batteries in June 1815 gives the following as equipped with "English guns" (this info is not necessarily complete):

6 pfündige Fuß-Batterie: 20, 24, 25, 26, 34
Reitende ["riding" = horse] Batterie: 11, 16

Goodness me, looks like I opened Pandora's box!
Thank you one and all for your learned contributions.

Oh, and I would agree with Oliver's comment in the linked thread that the supply of different ammunition can't have been too much of a nightmare, or efforts would have been made to concentrate guns by type in different corps.

I would disagree with Oliver over the attempt to concentrate the guns of different nations within Corps. As they were serviced by different vehicles then it would be obvious what the ammunition would carry.

The French guns had French caissons. That was the main area to make sure there was no mix up. The British and Prussian 6-pdrs fired approximately the same size ball.

Also remember that the battery carried with it all the ammunition for the campaign. It was rare that this would be replenished during the campaign especially such a short one as the Waterloo campaign.

Stephen

To add to the list of Foreign guns used by the Prussians are the 6-pdr Foot Batteries

6x British 6-pdr and 2x 5.5in howitzers
24th 6-pdr FA
26th 6-pdr FA
27th 6-pdr FA
31st 6-pdr FA
32nd 6-pdr FA
33nd 6-pdr FA [became 13th HA in March 1813]

8x British 6-pdrs
25th 6-pdr FA

3x British 6-pdr + 1 5,5in Howitzer
30th 6-pdr FA (formed in Colberg)

30th 6-pdr FA

4x British Iron 6-pdrs and 2x 5.5in Howitzers [Probably not block trail – Iron 6-pdrs were Naval pieces]
20th 6-pdr FA

Stephen

Once again, may thanks!
Seems we actually all agree on the ammunition supply: The point was that indeed, procuring it and telling it apart in practice wasn't such a problem, hence corps with mixed ordnance were just fine. If they hadn't been, then in two and a half years of campaigning, someone would have noticed and taken steps.

The comment is that they did and mistakes were made. Having three different 6-pdr shot and powder charges. The number of guns ruined by overcharging with British cylinder powder.

The batteries were self contained and regulated their supply. It should be noted that in 1778 three Prussian batteries were forced to surrender as the officers forgot to check that they had cannister rounds when faced by cavalry. [Scharnhorst]

Stephen

Mr Summerfield….in your first post on this subject,,,you state that the Prussian 11th Horse Artillery had english guns and "uniforms"

would this be the complete british RHA uniforms,,fooot artillery uniforms ??…any help would be welcome.

Tim

"It should be noted that in 1778 three Prussian batteries were forced to surrender as the officers forgot to check that they had cannister rounds when faced by cavalry. [Scharnhorst]"

- Ah, that explains the obsessive insistence later on always having two canister rounds in the ready box, on the gun itself.

As for the mistakes that were made, they don't appear to have bothered high command sufficiently to take more far-reaching measures, e.g. transfer all "British" batteries to one Corps reserve, supply that formation only with British-made powder, and re-train its 500-odd gunners accordingly. Even allowing for the period's constraints, this doesn't seem impossible to achieve during an armistice period, if the problem had been deemed a crippling one?

Higher command did not bother much upon technical subjects of artillery and engineers. They had to do what they could with whatever we around.

Wellington could not understand that an 18-pdr ball was different sizes. That was a typical response to artillery. There were few gunners that obtained general rank that commanded armies. Napoleon, Marmont and Scharnhorst (chief of staff) come to mind.

Dear Tim
It was British RHA uniform that the Prussians attempted to make more "Prussian." This was mainly removing the lace.
Stephen

'Also remember that the battery carried with it all the ammunition for the campaign. It was rare that this would be replenished during the campaign especially such a short one as the Waterloo campaign.'

So you are saying that the Prussian army had no system of artillery resupply?

'Higher command did not bother much upon technical subjects of artillery and engineers. They had to do what they could with whatever we around.'

Are you saying this for just the Prussians or for all of the allied armies or for all armies of the period?

'Wellington could not understand that an 18-pdr ball was different sizes. That was a typical response to artillery. There were few gunners that obtained general rank that commanded armies. Napoleon, Marmont and Scharnhorst (chief of staff) come to mind.'

Are you saying that Wellington had no idea on the different sizes of artillery ammunition? Especially with the care which he took with logistics?

Scharnhorst never was in command of an army in the field.

Sincerely,
Kevin

sooo…If someone brought out a hard plastic RHA set..and I had a steady hand and a sharp knife…and I removed the lace ..I could build my brother an english supplied horse battery with crew in british uniforms…Excellant.

would the officers try to have prussian shako's or the british helments ?

Tim

British RHA helmets were supplied to the Prussians. Apparently Prussian Horse Artillery Battery No. 18 wore them at some point.

Some Prussian foot artillery batteries also apparently wore British foot artillery jackets, which were suitably modified for a more 'Prussian' look.

Prussian artilery train troops also were supplied with English jackets and shakos.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Tim, I'm with you here.
Officers would normally buy their own uniforms, according to regulations; however the British-supplied Tarleton helmets seem to have been quite popular (anything to look different?) Apparently the King of Prussia didn't like to see his artillery officers so attired – now I'm tempted to include them in my army just for that reason (and I'm "Prussian" by birth!)

Dear Kevin
Wellington was an infantry General. His understanding of artillery and engineering was very poor. Certainly you should discuss this with Colonel Lipscombe. Wellington counted 18-pdr shot and did not understand that it could be different sizes. See Dickson papers.

The Prussians had a resupply system. I am talking of the practicalities of the Waterloo Campaign. Again for more research is required for all the countries in looking at what was done rather than in theory.

Scharnhorst did take commend of the rearguard for a few days in 1806 see Lehrmann (1886). He was a chief of staff as I stated.
Stephen

Dear Tim
The Prussian RA were supplied with British RHA Uniform. The removal of the lace was their attempt to Prussianise the uniform. The attitude to lace on British supplied uniforms see.

(2009) Prussian Infantry 1808-1840: Volume II
link

(2011) Prussian Napoleonic Landwehr Infantry and Cavalry 1813-15
link

Stephen

Gentlemen, this subject will drive you crazy, it has me for 30 years

It most certainly can. I've been studying it for over forty myself.

Sincerely,
Kevin

'Wellington was an infantry General. His understanding of artillery and engineering was very poor. Certainly you should discuss this with Colonel Lipscombe. Wellington counted 18-pdr shot and did not understand that it could be different sizes. See Dickson papers.'

Do you have a citation from Dickson that I could look up?

I understand that Wellington was an infantry officer. I don't agree that he didn't understand artillery and engineers. Perhaps you're getting him confused with Frederick the Great?

'The Prussians had a resupply system. I am talking of the practicalities of the Waterloo Campaign. Again for more research is required for all the countries in looking at what was done rather than in theory.'

Then your previous comment is somewhat puzzling. Are you intimating that the Prussian artillery units engaged at Ligny were not resupplied before Waterloo? And if so, why not?

'Scharnhorst did take commend of the rearguard for a few days in 1806 see Lehrmann (1886). He was a chief of staff as I stated.'

So why did you include him with army commanders who had been artillerymen? The French had a number of artillery officers, such as Lauriston and Foy, who were division and corps commanders also. Bertrand also became a corps commander and he was an engineer.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Dear Kevin
I would advise you to talk to Colonel Lipscombe who is doing a biography of Dickson. It is from the papers and correspondence.

Stephen

I have absolutely no idea who Colonel Lipscombe is. I merely asked for a page citation so I can look it up as I have the Dickson manuscripts and have used them in the past. I also have a copy of his 1815 manuscript which is not included in the five-volume published manuscript.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Found Col Linscombe and an article of his on Dickson. If you have the page citation requested that would be good. If not, then please let me know and I'll look it up in my copy of the manuscript.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Thanks all for the information on this thread. Can I presume that the gun carriages would have been painted to the Prussian standard artillery colour at the earliest possible opportunity, or is there evidence that they remained in French, Russian artillery greens and British artillery grey?

Kevin,

Colonel Nick Lipscombe is a serving British Royal Artillery officer, currently at NATO HQ in Lisbon. He is chairman of Peninsula 200, commemorating all the events of the campaign on behalf of the British, Portuguese and Spanish governments. He is also the author of the excellent Peninsular War Atlas. I am also delighted that he is acting as a guide for a party of 40 of us visiting Badajos and Albuera in May.

I am sure his biography of Dickson will be excellent and look forward to it.

Rod

Rod,

Thanks!

I found and bookmarked the website for Peninsula 200.
I'll be looking forward also to the biography of Dickson.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Concerning the painting of gun carriages, limbers, waggons etc., I have never come accross any reference that they were repainted. This doesn't rule out that they were repainted, of course. If it happened, obviously not during the campaign, but the year of peace after the capitulation of Paris in 1814 could have been an opportunity ,-)

I never found anything, also not for other nations, about how often the wood was usually repainted and how long the paint would last in average.

Can anyone supply some info on this ?

A formula for the light olive paint of French artillery material is given somewhere in Gassendi's Aide-mémoire.

Oliver…If the memory of an old man is half way right…and he dose not remember which book he read it from,but was not the formula 7 or 8 part yellow ochre and 2-3 parts black ?? Not sure but that seems to be right unless I'm going off the deep end.

Runicus

Depends on what you took for black ingredient. In 1798, Gassendi wrote:

link

By 1819 some detailed formulae had been added:

link

If my memory serves me well the Brunswickers were equipped with captured French guns and the carriages are generally though to have been repainted.

It would be interesting to know if the British 6 pounders were those previously used by the RHA who were re-issued with 9 pounders.

I think I will paint the carriages in line with the colours of the originating nations so I can use them either as part of the originating army or on Prussian service for a different battle. At 6mm the lack of lace will not be an issue.

The Brunswickers at Waterloo were equipped with ordnance, limbers and caissons purchased after Leipzig. These were Westphalian Batteries. So the equipment were French AnXI with M1808 modifications. It should be noted that the Westphalians had their own gun tubes designed by General Alix. These were more akin to the M1838 French tubes with smoothed astagals.

Stephen

This may not the way to go but to me common sense and a basing in military matters tells me as soon as needed ,equipment (including gun carriages) would be painted in whatever was at hand. Which would probably be the proper (for their army) color. As for me I painted my 2 Prussian captured 12 Pdr batteries in their own original (French) colors. My reason is they haven't had the time to paint in Prussian colors.