"US BB design with 20-12"guns" Topic

Friedman's US Battleship design book discussed a series of design schemes considered in 1933. One sounded intriguing as it had twenty 12" guns in five quad turrets. Looking for my next 1/1200 BB project, this sounded like a very interesting concept for gaming, especially when one considers the damage done to USS South Dakota by multiple hits 14" and smaller. What a rain of 12" shells could do (considering also the USN could design an oversize AP shell like they did for the 16") in some of the battles around Guadalcanal for example could be something to see.

The concept was of a 22kt BB. If I was to make this it would be a 28kt variant figuring a BB started in 1934-35 would be made as a faster ship. This is taking some of Alnavco's conjectures a step further but this sounds like a fascinating model.

Anyone interested? It will be 1/1200, chosen gaming scale of Jurassic Park.

Dave G
The PT Dockyard

The proposed design sounds like a nightmare!

How would they have fired five barrels per turret without each interfering with the other (both during the loading process and the firing process)? I suppose that each turret would have fired salvoes of 3 then 2 barrels.

In addition, the 'all or nothing' armour philosophy that was in favour with the USN calls for as small a length of heavy belt armour as possible. If the turrets had been in-line, this would have made the armour on the BBs thin.

The change to 12" rather than 16" (or even 18") calibre for the main gun armament would have required the agreement of all the other signatories of the Washington Naval Treaty. The UK would have been interested (they were looking at their own small BB designs at the time. See link ), but the Japanese would have resisted such a move.

Increasing the speed from 22kts to 28 kts would imply that the design would have had to grow lengthwise to accommodate the additional boilers; this would have further thinned the side armour if the ship's tonnage was to be kept within reasonable limits.

Finally, the damage done by multiple 14" shells (et al) on South Dakota were mainly to her upperworks whilst she was at relatively close range and unable to 'see' the enemy due to an electrical failure. It sounds very similar to the stories about the damage done to Russian BBs at Tsushima, where even medium calibre guns were inflicting damage on battleships at close range. At 'normal' battle ranges a 12" armed BB is going to be at a disadvantage when facing an enemy armed with 14" or 16" guns. The latter could sit in its 'immune zone' firing at the 12" gunned ship with relative impunity … and the 12" gunned BB could have little if anything about it.

In my opinion the USN made a good decision NOT to build this design for all sorts of logical (and sensible) reasons. That said, I would like to see what it would have looked like!

Could've developed into an interesting battlecruiser with say four triple turrets.

The saved weight and room could go to extra boilers and a slight increase in length to improve speed would be good.

Upgrade the deck armour as well.

Useless for a battle line but handy for chasing down those damned nasty cruisers the Japs had.

Four triple 12" turrets and designed to chase down large Japanese cruisers?

Sounds very like the USS Alaska to me (but with one turret more!).

All sound arguments.

BTW- it is 20 guns in five quaduple turrets.

That sounds so clumsy. I would love to see the design, though. I bet it would resemble some of those weird pre-dreadnaught designs.

Here is Navweps on the power of the newer 12"/50

link

How about a Tennesee with 20 guns? sounds like an appropriate comparison.

Lengthen the Texas and add a turret aft. What this hobby needs (gaming with miniature ships) is a good design it yourself program. That would be a lot of fun. Start with a hull design then add on to that. When the program starts laughing, back up until it stops. You have your ship.

It's not my design. Consult N. Friedman's "US Battleships: A Design History."

We could discuss the Italian Project G battleship with 16- 15" guns…… or the US Tillman or the US Maximum BB of 1934.

Dave G
The PT Dockyard

In Friedmanīs book there is also a very interesting, if totally misguided, design for a battleship with torpedoes as its main weapon.
Personally, I like very much the really cool pre-dreadnought design that, probably fortunately, but what a pity, was not accepted. Great book, btw.

It might have been worth it if considering chances of hitting the target. Thanks to radar controlled gunnery it wasn't needed.

20 12" guns would burn through ammunition reserves amazingly fast. While interesting, it sounds like something that would have been immediately impractical (though fascinating to see).

Well, you may get your chance. The UP-41 is in the mold rubber and this one is started.

So, despite the catcalls, work has proceeded and she is almost done…

From what I can tell the drawings for this have probably been destroyed so it is a slight variation on the Scheme A from the 30 August 1933 study found on page 228 of Friedman's book on US Battleships.

I added a turtleback forecastle because A) this was common on many other design studies of this period (gunboats, destroyers, cruisers) and B) I like how it looks.

The prototype guns are a little thicker than what is planned for production. I plan to cast the turrets without gunbarrels and will supply the barrels as pre-cut rod. I figure this can be controlled by fixturing a lot easier than trying to cast twenty barrels. She also has a scribed deck.

Hope to commision her in a month or so!

And here she is! In glorious 1/1200 scale!

Wow! It is more bizarre than I had initially thought. On the first broadside, she just rolls right over and is done. I guess you save money on future refits.

Nah. If the Iowas can fire a full 'John Wayne' broadside (all 9 guns simultaneously) and not even move, what makes you think that this one would be any worse? They're both throwing about the same weight of shell!

So, for the scoffers who think the New Hampshire is crazy, look at what else the Navy was toying with…

80,000 tons, 24(yes, TWENTY FOUR) 16" guns in four SIX GUN TURRETS….

Dave G
The PT Dockyard

Great googly-moogly!

I'm terrified to even think about how fast that monster would empty her magazines!

These ship designs may seem wonky, but there is a method in the madness. In the record of modern BB-vs-BB combat there seems to be a big advantage to scoring the first hit. The more shells you can put out at once, the better your chances of scoring a hit and doing crippling damage to the enemy.

I don't think she's ugly. She looks no worse than some of the wartime CLs. Quite a modern, sleek profile for an early 1930s design.