"The Science behind technology in Middle Earth" Topic

As some may have guessed, I am COMPLETELY Obsessed with Middle-Earth.

One of the things that I have been trying to do is to complete a metaphysics and physics for Middle Earth that operates under the explicit truth of cartesian dualism. This has presented more than a few problems, but I may have just sorted out a lot of them by altering the basic fundamental particles of Physics in Ëa.

This alteration also allowed me to discover a possible mechanism, at least the one I am going to use and apply to Eä, Arda and Middle-Earth (being Valinor, and Endor), for why and how technology becomes so tremendously difficult to develop and why it never seems to do so over the span of hundreds of thousands of years (at least Mechanized Technology).

If we assume that there is an elementary particle (on the order of the lepton – I am calling it the Fëaton), that is free floating, yet attracted to other elementary particles (Bosons and Leptons, especially if they have been organized into either organic molecules (to which they are most strongly attached) or into an organized or structured arrangement (crystals and rocks).

This amounts for pretty much everything, so everything will have a degree of Fëa.

We know that living things are imbued with a Fëa, and that All Things in Ëa have some small measure of Fëa (however slight) in their makeup.

The Fëatons also are affected by the emotional and mental states of the things they are around, and can CARRY emotional or mental states to other things nearby, especially if the emotional being carries a large number of strongly charged Fëatons, or the location itself has a large number from another person (for example: a Valar, or Maia. An instance could be Melian Hallowing a person, place or thing). These emotional states affect the +/- charge of the Fëaton, and its Spin (represented as a multiple-axes representing the various emotions: Happy/joyful, angry/fearful, gluttonous, slothful, grateful, carefree, loving, hateful, etc…). The spin of a Fëaton can influence the spin of other's nearby (thus, if two beings have conscious control of their Fëa, they can Put forth their power to contest with another. This contest deprives the loser of Fëa more-so than the winner of the contest)

This is what allows for things like The One Ring, Magic Swords, the Palantíri, and magic/haunted trees. It is what gives some locations a Dark Feeling (spots in MIrkwood after the Necromancer inhabited Dol Guldur, )and what gives some locations a Healing Energy (for example, the wells of Ivrin, where Turin was healed once by drinking the waters). And it is what allows for things like when Luthien put forth her power at Sauron's tower on Tol Sirion, or when Galadriel and Sauron strove against each other when the Éorlings were making their ride to help Cirion, or when Galdalf Strove against Sauron when on the Seat of Hearing to help Frodo…

Most of these things or places became so because some being put their own Fëa into these locales or object intentionally (or they Put forth their power).

But we also have evidence of subconscious intention, or unintentional passage of Fëa into an object. Such as when an angry and fearful farmer plants a crop. This fear and anger can win up passed into his fields, and cause either the crops to fail, or the land itself to become angry and fearful.

Thus, whenever anyone makes anything there is a passage of Fëatons into the object they are making.

This can produce things like Blankets that are warmer and softer (or Elven Cloaks that keep you hidden – the maker's desire was to protect the wearer, which causes Fëatons to carry a certain charge and spin into the object being made, altering its Fëatons, and adding to them, which in turn act upon the molecular matter of the object), cakes that are sweeter and tastier (or drier and nasty tasting), swords that are sharper and harder to parry, armor that protects not just against cuts, but against the blows themselves.

So… If you built a machine to make objects (mechanization), it would produce objects that carried far fewer Fëatons (since the original maker of the machine would be putting his own Fëatons into the machine, but being unintentional, and carrying fewer Fëatons, the machine would pass little of them into the things it was making), and thus the objects it make would be "Soulless".

And if you have machines making other machines (as we do in modern society), then the objects created will work far less well than objects made by living beings.

Swords would be duller, plows wouldn't break the earth as well, seeds wouldn't germinate as well (planted by a machine made planter), food wouldn't be as nourishing, and so on.

This brings plain old Darwinian Evolution into the picture.

Those who used NON-Machine made implements would be at an evolutionary advantage to those who didn't.

While those who used machine made tools or products might be able to sustain (poorly) a larger population (think Orcs), this population itself would begin to be sucked dry of any Fëa (as they would be consuming their Fëa to make up for what wasn't being passed to them by the objects and food they used or consumed).

This also presents a solution for the Dwarves. And for how the dwarves could make Mechanization work.

They are the Children of Aulë, and as such, have an especial affinity for tools (but not necessarily machines. Dwarves pass far more of their own Fëa into anything they build (unintentionally) than other beings in Middle-Earth, due to their love of just making stuff.

Thus they could produce a semi-mechanized society better than could other races in Middle-Earth (as the evolutionary mechanics work in their favor).

Sorry for the long screed about this, but when the idea occurred to me, I needed to record it someplace so that I wouldn't forget it, and so that others could begin to examine it (Peer-Review).

I hope that I am not the only Tolkien freak around these parts who is willing to examine the underlying physics and metaphysics.

What do Sheldon and Leonard think ?

Pat

Just the sort of thing I talk to myself about. I like it.
@ Sane Max LOL I loved that reply.

Even though the description/explanation is lengthy, all of this only took about 0 seconds for me to formulate.

I'm personally more interested in What Amy thinks that Sheldon or Leonard (I have a thing for Mayim Bialek)… Although… technically, the characters of Sheldon and Leonard would be more appropriate as sources of authority to examine the idea.

My only problem with this is that it requires some fundamental changes to physics (not only for the Fëatons, but due to the fact that in Ëa, light can have mass). I am guessing that they have two different types and sources of "light" and that the light that has mass is due to the entangling of Fëatons and Photons.

Recall that the light of the two trees in Valinor could be collected in vats, it could "drip" off things, or "pour forth" from the Trees as Ungoliant "consumed" it.

Obviously, some fundamental particles are more amenable to interactions or entanglement with Fëatons, especially when the Fëatons have a specific charge or spin.

Such as, when you get Negatively charged Fëatons with a Hateful Spin, they will bond with plasmas more easily, and will absorb large amounts of photons (increasing the energy of the plasma).

This is one of the ways that you get Balrogs that have an intense flame (plasma) and how they generate their "cloud/wings" of dark that seem to absorb (or actually do absorb) light.

Conversely, Positively charged Fëatons with a Loving spin will bond with light and plasmas to give them an effervescent quality that protects against damage, or helps to heal injured tissued (I'l figure out the O-chem and biology later).

I guess that I need to figure out what all of the possible Spin-States of Fëatons are.

Obviously, an open ended list of spin-types would be hard to justify (and difficult topographically).

Seeing as Middle-Earth is based upon a Mythology that tends to reflect Pagan elements of Christianity, I figure that seven, eleven or twelve Spin-States will probably exist (or… Maybe 13… One of them being -Dum Dum DOOOM – "Pure Evil"). Although I think Tolkien would say that this is really a state of an absolute lack of existence of ANY Fëa. Probably eleven or twleve, though… Maybe have that thirteenth one creep in with a tweak to the math…

(I have a thing for Mayim Bialek)…

I suppose after Katie Price you would look for brains before breasts.

Pat

Sane Max LOL

Alex

Impressive. Very impressive. But why?

But hey – I'm not trying to stop you (nor could I, I would judge!)

I'm as hard headed in the SF as I can be, preferring Hard SF to space opera and SF/Fantasy, but – with Tolkien's masterwork – I can just switch off and say "well – coz it's magic" (bearing in mind Clark's classic definition of advanced technology and what it resembles).

So I'm happy to 'leave it be'…

John T

I had to look up the "Sheldon and Leonard". Hmmmmm

Although I think Tolkien would say that this is really a state of an absolute lack of existence of ANY Fëa..

No, what Tolkien would say is 'Hello, is that the Police? This is Professor Tolkien at 20 Northmoor Road… There is a young man in my drive in a duffle-coat and bobble-hat shouting something about Spin-Types, and I want to go to the shops. Hmm? 10 Minutes? Lovely, thank you. Byebye.'

Pat

Doesn't magic make for a more coherent answer to all of your questions? I'm not sure why you are making up a pseudo scientific reason for any of this to be honest? It also seems like you are using the same idea as Lucas (Star Wars) with midichorians and explaining the existence of the force.

Holy Wall of Text Batman!

I haven't pondered the metaphysics of Middle Earth. My Tokien geekdom comes out in imagining the social changes as technology does develop. Starting with the premise that all the races don't fade away -- only the upper class elves etc head off. Just no one ever bothers recording much about the working classes…

So we have a long term modelling project set at the dawn of the Fifth Age when the Orcs finally emerge as the technological leaders having finally brought to fruition the innovations the Gandalf & Co derailed so long ago.

And out of the peaks of Morder burst forth the Iron Wargs -- starting an age of industry and steam! The first railroad on the continent is the Ered Line "Connecting the Mountains" carrying coal from Minas Morgul and ore from the Iron Hills and connecting with the Rhûn Steamship Company at Esgaroth. (German image equipment)

The first intercontinental line is the GHL&G, Grey Havens, Lorien & Gondor (early American). At Hobbiton it connects with the Old Forest Ry (British image) running through Rivendell and connecting to the Ered at Mirkwood.

Grey Havens is a bit of a seedy working class city these days, but the Hobbits like to go there for summer holidays at the beach, or just for an excuse to enjoy the buffet car on a long ride

In Minas Tirith, Palantir Power & Light is starting to replace the gaslamps with the first electric ones

We've been slowly working on the planning and modelling of this for years with N gauge early steam, and hope to actually have track down and start running trains this coming year!

as ever, please excuse my english.
A "magical" particle don´t make the setting more scientific. It only moves the magic from the macro scale to the subatomic scale.
Although i find your theory about people putting featons in everything very ellegant, either you call it mana, lifeforce or featons.
My two cents about why there isn´t technological jumps in middle earth and related settings: because the kind of people who was attracted by technology in our world to solve some of their desires, would find an easier tool in magic than science. So if leonardo da vinci wanted to fly, he could achieve it by using magic. Same thing in order to watch the sky: use magic instead of optics, so no basic discoveries in science or phisic laws

another point: in a land where you can perceive the supernatural without any doubt (magic, dragons, faeries, gods, supernatural events) it would be irrational to search for a rational explanation to any event. Scientific thinking would be out of place

It isn't a magical particle.

That's the whole point.

Tolkien spent YEARS on Metaphysics, trying to formulate a reason WHY many things in Middle Earth happened or worked the way they did.

Yes… This is Similar to Lucas' "midichlorians," but rather than a microscopic part of something, this is a fundamental particle of the universe.

As such, it is Physical.

Magic HAS to be made out of SOMETHING, so the question is:

WHAT? What is it made out of?

This also solves the problem of why there is no advanced technology:

Because all tools require a living being to craft them (One of the fundamental types of Magic that Tolkien describes in The History of Middle Earth is Craft) in order for them to function well.

People who have well functioning (or better functioning tools tend to have an evolutionary advantage over those who don't.

This solution provides a fundamental property to Middle Earth that EXPLAINS HOW Magic works.

Just saying "Magic" is no explanation at all.

If something happens, there HAS to be a HOW IT HAPPENS in addition to a "why."

I explained this in the OP.

Or, does no one here know what Metaphysics is about, and they haven't thought about what it really means for magic to exist?

"I had to look up the "Sheldon and Leonard"."

BAZINGA!!!

;-)

Magic HAS to be made out of SOMETHING

Why?

I thought you were announcing a new show on the History (sic) Channel.

I think we know what metaphysics is about but we have a disagreement over what you are saying. Middle Earth has existed for thousands of years without getting beyond a late medieval technological level. I don't think your explanation is the only logical explanation within the framework of Tolkiens work and to be honest I don't think your explanation flows with what Tolkien wrote.

While Tolkien was very interested in how things worked he also imbued his world with a lot of mysticism. Like I said before your explanation seems to be much more inline with Star Wars and not Middle Earth.

And certianly the presence of magic would be a good explanation for a lack of technological advancement. And in the 1st Age life was essentially idealic which means there would not have been a need for technological advancement. Based on this if you take the 2nd and 3rd ages you really aren't looking at a timeline of technological advancement dissimiliar to the our own real world history.

One of the points that Tolkien is getting across is the destruction of mysticism / magic with the ascension of man to prominence in Middle Earth and the decline of the elves and dwarves. So I do not think he would agree with your assessment of the situation but of course there is always room for discussion and interpretation. I just don't see how your conclusions are based in what Tolkien wrote.

And to think I used to shake my head over people who learned Elvish …

I think the geo-political considerations of Middle Earth are far more pertinent to the suppression of technology (damned Elves maintaining a status quo where they're on top) than testing for midichorians …

Klingon Boggle, anyone?

I dunno, I kinda like the suggestion made here a few years back that ME is a virtual cyber-world, and the whole story is post-singularity.

Does this explain why the sun and moon are made of fruit?

We could also suppose a higher concentration of oligosacharides such as stachyose and raffinose in Middle Earth. I like to suppose that this is the case.

I'm with Clive Barker where in Weaveworld he says that the universe reflects our paradigm at that time. No one believes in magic today, hence no magick.

When I watched LOTR some time ago I wondered if you could mix it with the Matrix and have a virtual world visited by Neo like that of LOTR, then along came Avatar which is all that in a round about way.

I'm just going to pop out and see if I can get hold of some class A drugs then I'm going to come back and read all this again!!
Great stuff guys.

"No, what Tolkien would say is 'Hello, is that the Police? This is Professor Tolkien at 20 Northmoor Road… There is a young man in my drive in a duffle-coat and bobble-hat shouting something about Spin-Types, and I want to go to the shops. Hmm? 10 Minutes? Lovely, thank you. Byebye.'"

I don't think Tolkein would say much of anything. He's been dead since 1973 and seems awfully compelled stay put, despite such questions.

If something happens, there HAS to be a HOW IT HAPPENS in addition to a "why."

In the real world, sure. In fiction, "because the author thought it was a good idea" is generally considered plenty.

Well, good thing Tolkien wasn't as revisionist as Lucas, otherwise we'd be seeing Bard using an RPG or Stinger missile to take out Smaug….

(j/k folks, don't get crazy! ;-)

Or replace all the swords and spears with Walkie talkies. ;)

Magic has to be made out of SOMETHING…

Otherwise…

It would be NOTHING.

There is a pretty important point in Magic being Nothing.

That tends to mean that it doesn't exist.

I don't know why that point is so difficult for so many people to understand.

And people are still missing the point that this provides a CAUSAL EXPLANATION for the cultural and technological conservatism of Middle-Earth.

It doesn't require any sociological or "cultural" explanations (which aren't really any better of an explanation than "Magic" or "Goddidit."), which tend to just push back the causal link one step.

That magic explains the lack of technology NEEDS to be COUPLED with an explanation of HOW it causes a lack of technology.

People seem to be reacting as if this is something that the people of Middle-Earth would have the first clue about.

This is like saying that because the Romans were affected by Physics they must have known how to make an airplane. Or that because they were affected by biology, they must have known about genetics.

I am talking about a physical property of the world.

It doesn't matter that Tolkien didn't get into this area (it wasn't his expertise, and being an academic, he tended to concentrate upon the areas where he did have expertise).

It doesn't matter that there might be other possible MECHANISMS.

Notice I didn't use the word "Explanation." Explanations are useless without a causal mechanism.

This is an explanation that WORKS. It provides a mechanism for the presence of the various agencies, beings, geography, and items for which there is a SEEMINGLY Supernatural explanation.

But to say something is Supernatural is to avoid explaining its causal mechanism. In other words, it is no explanation at all. It provides exactly the same amount of information as "I don't know."

Using the theory I have put together, I can predict things that we find in Tolkien's works, without prior knowledge of those works.

This is the test of a theory.

And, this theory would pretty much make walkie-talkies impossible as they are imagined now.

Instead, they would look more like what we DO find in Middle-Earth:

The Palantíri.

Fea.

The Midichlorians of Middle-Earth!

Well, as far as an analogy goes… Yes, the idea of Fëatons is similar to Midichlorians, in that both are related to explaining what people take to be the Supernatural, but the explanations part ways pretty rapidly.

Midichlorians are microscopic, and inhabit the cellular world, Thus they themselves are at least one step removed from an explanation that is based upon Physics (Midichlorians are a Biological Explanation). Midichlorians then need something more fundamental to act as a force carrier for THE Force.

Whereas Fëatons are a fundamental particle that is a force carrier (DO NOT confuse a "Force Carrier" with The Force from Star Wars). Photons are a force carrier, Electrons are a force carrier, Mesons are a force carrier, Quarks are a force carrier, etc… Fëatons are an elementary particle in the same way that Electrons, Photons, Mesons, Quarks, Gluons, etc., are all force carriers.

This force carrier is a necessary component of ANY world (including our own) where Cartesian Dualism is real (i.e. True).

In our world, if it turns out that we do have a "soul," then it MUST be Made of Something (As I have already said, if it isn't made of SOMETHING, then it is made of NOTHING, and ALL THINGS made of nothing Do Not Exist)

But, back to Middle-Earth…

The Fëaton theory is the causal mechanism that allows the soul to bind to physical objects, primarily via biological mechanisms, but not necessarily so (it can bind to things via non-biological mechanisms with a high enough concentration of Fëa in an object or area that is non-biological). The Ruling Ring is one such example of a non-biological object, where it has a high enough of a concentration of Fëatons that it has a will, or intentions of its own, and it is capable of exercising this will over the physical world to affect it in the same way that a biological entity in Middle-Earth can project their will – via the Fëatons that carry their soul – onto another person, object or place (Person, place or thing – i.e. over nouns).

I don't see what the problem with the theory is, and I am not sure that I have the right audience to properly vet the theory, as no one here seems to understand the concept of a causal mechanism, nor the fundamental process of theory and hypothesis formulation.

Things are the way they are in Tolkien's world because it was Illvatar will. Everything, even Melko betrayal. There is no explaination unless you can explain the existance of god, which by definition, is contrary to any scientific explaination.

Tolkien was, as he said many times, was just writing a story and a damn good one it is. If your as big a fan as you think, you would just except that and stop messing with it.

CAUSAL EXPLANATION for the cultural and technological conservatism of Middle-Earth.

No, it provides techno-babel, predicting nothing.

Alex, in the end where are you going with this?

Looking to establish a game setting?

Your insight into Tolkien is neato bandito…but as a wise man once said "what does it all mean Basil?"

@Alex: I find your hypothesis well-derived with plenty of thought behind it. However, I find the emotional interaction of fundamental particles hard to buy. If the particles are indeed fundamental, then they must infuse everything and must have fone so since before the creation of Illuvatar itself. Thus, I think those particles must be the source of emotions, the cause of emotions. My brain is fuzzy tonight, so maybe I'm not making myself clear. But I hope I am.

@all the haters: I'm the guy with brain damage, the whole thing isn't that hard to understand lol!

This is admirable and the Sheldon and Leonard reference genius, Sane Max.

FABET01, you are right. It is all about Iluvatar. But I don't think science and theology or philosophy need be in conflict. (John Paul II had no problem with that.) You need to go to the beginning, the creation story in the Silmarillion and see that creation and matter is connected to music and sound.

Ralph Wood in the Gospel According to Tolkien says, " Tolkien's world is totally theocentric. It is inescapably God-centered. The first seventeen pages of The Silmarillion contain Tolkien's compelling account of Iluvatar's creation and sustenance of the universe….it is the foundation of everything else. "

I am more interested in the WHY of Tolkien, its philosophy. (Come on – it is the ultimate story of good and evil of redemption and grace.) There are lots of good books to read on this. In addition to Wood's book there is, Bassham and Bronson, Lord of the Rings Philosophy; Kreeft, The Philosophy of Tolkien; and Dave Colbert, The Magical Worlds of the Lord of the Rings.

So what about the physics of music and sound?
link

Bill

Things are the way they are in Tolkien's world because it was Illvatar will. Everything, even Melko betrayal. There is no explaination unless you can explain the existance of god, which by definition, is contrary to any scientific explaination.

Things are the way they are because of Ilúvatar's will.

That is a tautology in Ëa. A given that tells us nothing.

Ilúvatar needs some mechanism by which his will works.

Since Ëa is a created world, much like the video games that are created yearly, it can have any set of physics that is desired as long as they provide a consistency.

So explaining the existence of God isn't necessary where it is a starting point, and where we have discoverable mechanisms.

Ëa obviously isn't this universe, where the evidence flatly contradicts Cartesian Dualism (there might be some other form of dualism at work, but it isn't Cartesian, if it exists).

And Totchli, that is probably a better way to look at it: That the Fëaton is the force carrier for emotions (and other Soul related stuff). That they are both the carrier of, and source of emotional force in Ëa.

So, perhaps my explanation needs some polishing. Like I said, I posted it here to get critical feedback (real critical, not comments like "It explains nothing." If it explains nothing, please illustrate with some form of logical argument WHY it explains nothing).

And where this is all going:

There is a group of Digital Humanities Grad Students at colleges in California¹ who want to use the same technology that they use to create digital settings of the ancient world to create a digital Ëa (which is composed in part by Arda: The Solar System of which Middle-Earth is a part).

Thus, we need a workable metaphysics and physics that will account for the various "magical" interactions.

We can't just use an arbitrary kluge for each instance of Magic in Ëa, Arda, or Middle-Earth (Endor). We need a universal rule that will account for the behavior of the various agents, artifacts and geography in Ëa, Arda, and Endor (Tolkien's word for Middle-Earth itself – pity that G. Lucas ruined that word).

We also need a causal mechanism to explain how Iluvatar interacts with Ëa.

And, no… I don't need to "Prove" the existence of Iluvatar, because I am (or rather We are) his creator. Or, to be more specific I AM Ilúvatar, for the purposes of this discussion.

And, Battle Cry Bill, exactly what about the physics of sound and music?

We already have a workable physics of sound. If you mean, how will the Fëaton interact with sound and music, in the same way that it interacts with the rest of anything else that is Created in Middle-Earth. The sound will mix with a person's emotional content at the time of playing a piece of music, resulting in a tangible effect upon listeners. Music already has this effect to a great extent, it will just be amplified in Middle-Earth.

This isn't "Messing with Tolkien's Story." It is doing what Tolkien himself spent the latter part of his life attempting to do: Create a workable metaphysics for the world he created (in The History of Middle-Earth he bemoans his inadequacy to do this) before he died.

This is about looking at the story, and seeing if there is a way to create a world in which the underlying mythology can be made historic via a digital recreation that operates in a manner consistent with the stories.

This is no different than what Physicists and Cosmologists do with our world. The only difference is that I am not constrained by having constants and physics fixed by the universe I currently occupy, nor having to justify assumptions about theology, because I am not applying this Metaphysics to OUR WORLD!

These metaphysics are only applied to Ëa.

Is that really so hard to grasp?

And, yes, the Philosophy of Middle-Earth is hugely important to this project, because it contains the underlying assumptions about the world that need to be taken into account.

One of our biggest obstacles is Tolkien's imaginings about the sexuality of Elves, which are HUGELY Catholic (they represent one of the HUGEST contradictions that we face, as a wholly monogamous society that pair-bonds for life, and that can be re-born – possibly upsetting the re-marriage of their previous partner – is unsustainable in a world where there is a fixed population size). We are probably going to be taking his conception here quite a bit more metaphorical, and having it expressed as an ideal form. But that the reality will be a bit more flexible than the ideal.

Thanks for those who have taken the time to help. I am hoping that this will be a workable means to apply Cartesian Dualism to Middle-Earth…

¹ See UCLA's Digital Humanties' Project where they have re-created Rome c. AD 350/400, Karnak, the Hyper-Cities project (something that I actually had the idea of back in 2000, independently. Turns out that this idea has been independently re-created by about 100 people worldwide), and the many other projects, of which I hope to eventually make this project (Ëa/Middle-Earth) one:

link

I think that bringing up tautologies on TMP should be akin to Godwin's Law.
The discussion is hereby shut down, and any further comments are irrelevant.

"It's a tautology!"
"No it isn't."
"Yes it is!"
"No it isn't."

YouTube link

Oh… Very helpful…

Ilúvatar needs some mechanism by which his will works.

No he doesn't. That's the "nature" of gods. They don't work on rationalities. They work on faith which requires no proof or understanding. Just acceptance.

What you doing is akin to believing in fairies in the real world and trying to researching their biology and evolution.

Tolkien bemoaned many things. Like writing "The Hobbit". He believed illustion was the eenemy of literature, but avidly illustrated his works. Just shows he was a thinking man.

The fact that the professor (the individual who created the world) couldn't come up with a metaphysical S.O.P. should be evidence that there shouldn't be any.

Digital Humanities

Isn't this an oxymoron?

Regarding sound and music in Middle Earth: it was shown during the flight from the Shire that music is VERY powerful; the singing of the Elves effectively banished a Ringwraith, arguably one of the most powerful beings in the world.

Regarding sound and music in Middle Earth: it was shown during the flight from the Shire that music is VERY powerful; the singing of the Elves effectively banished a Ringwraith, arguably one of the most powerful beings in the world.

Do you mean the Barrowwraith? if so, was it the power of the song or the power of the singer? Bombadil defies all explaination. Even Tolkien was at a loss to define his nature.

In earlier versions of the work, looking at wraiths was enough to freeze them in thier tracks at least until they figured out if the "looker" had no real power over them.

I suspect that if Tolkien did have a consistent mechanic in mind, you and Battle Cry Bill are closer to understanding it. Tolkien was a man in love with words. What would be more appropriate?

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."
-JRR Tolkien

So… what's the downside to NOT gaining any Fea from the items you interact with & food you consume?

I mean, to take your Orcish example: a large population sustained by mechanized agriculture and using mechanical items, not gaining any Fea from them, and as a consequence, consuming their own inherent Fea…

…and… what? What's the result of dwindling personal Fea? Would the Orcs even notice?

(I don't see how they'd be necessarily 'poorly' sustained either. For every super-nice Fea packed bun handmade by happy bakers, there'd be a 'negatively' Fea-packed dry bun made by henpecked bakers with debt problems, not to mention the disturbing side effects of a bun baked by someone distracted by his attractive new maid! At least mechanized agriculture would provide basic metabolic nutrition on a consistent basis.)

Also… does Fea itself have an inherent ability to discern and/or make judgement about it's 'spin'?

I mean, if an Orc who really enjoys smashing Hobbits with a club, smashes a Hobbit with a club… will that result in a release of, I dunno, 'happy' or 'positive' Fea?

Can't believe you've got me even considering this….

"Is that really so hard to grasp? " Alex, dude – don't get too Sheldon on us.

I have never heard of Digital Humanities ( is that why my kids' tuition bills are so high?), it has been years since I formally studied any philosophy, and I still have not found the time to even finish the Silmarillion. I also stopped my science education before Physics (I did clean the physics lab and the computer science lab – computers were more interesting to me at the time.) I am happy to play along as I can.

I did not explain my thought well on music. I have a musician friend who has studied the science of sound and music and thinks there might be something 'extra' that we don't know yet there. Since Tolkien had Iluvatar create the world through music, it makes sense to me that something in music or sound or the physics of sound is special and related to the creative spark or the 'eternal fire' that Melkor tried to find in the void. I don't know enough to suggest anything more – that there might be something in the physics of sound and energy that might be that unique add/change in physics you are looking for – and it could align your thoughts with this basic truth of Tolkien's world.

Your attempt to explain the lack of technology makes sense in light of your larger desire to create a world using software. I would think that it is less the lack of something that holds back technology, but a natural corruption of creation done outside of the intended creation 'theme.'

Bill

(Your Elves question is very interesting.)

I see people still don't understand that even Tolkien was looking for physical explanations for how his world operated. That seems to be the Ráison d'etre of the Catholic Church. The Church seems to know that they can't explain how God works. They have NEVER claimed that there ISN'T a way that God works.

You people are trying to mix our reality with that of Middle Earth. The two are not the same.

And, Orcs tend to not have Fëa to begin with. It is others who eat their food or use their stuff that don't find it to be "sustaining" or "useful." The products are utilitarian and plain. There is no "specialness" about them.

There is an issue surrounding the motion of and, and quality of and quantity of Fëa that I need to examine more closely.

The idea was that Fëa attracts like Fëa (or Complimentary Fëa, which isn't Opposite Fëa), so that when a baker who has an emotional investment in his bread bakes bread, he imbues it with some of his Fëa. This in turn is amplified by the world's Fëa (admittedly, admitted some of the Fëa of Morgoth in the produce, since he tainted the world).

And, an Orc who gets off on bashing in Hobbit Skulls will amplify the Fëa that motivated him to begin with (Probably Hate and Envy). It wouldn't necessarily give him more of a Fëa, since Orcs are broken to begin with (although, Gandalf, and others, were concerned with their rehabilitation – would this even be possible?). They lack a unitary Fëa, they only contain a fragment of the Fëa of a living thing due to the way in which they were originally created by Morgoth to begin with.

And…

As I explained in my last post, there would be no difference between making a sword and singing a song… They both are carriers of Fëa, and the singer with a greater amount of this will put more of it into his song.

The singer who is more in tune with Ëa/Arda/Endor will also have more of a flow of Fëa though them to and from the world, thus allowing a song they sing (or music they play) be more effective and produce more of an Affect on those around him/her (since Luthien also used song to her advantage).

See… This is what explanatory power is… It is the same explanation for all mechanistic effects. That's what any scientist hopes to see with a theory.

Sorry some people don't seem to understand science. That is a pitiable condition.

Sorry some people don't seem to understand science. That is a pitiable condition.

Good Lord. Stop being so damn full of yourself.
You are acting like you are the only intelligent being in the world.