Help support TMP


"North American ImagiNations" Topic


26 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the 18th Century ImagiNations Message Board


996 hits since 29 Nov 2011
©1994-2014 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

I am the mongo29 Nov 2011 7:50 p.m. PST

Are there any out there. I am considering one.

Mongo

Mako1129 Nov 2011 7:57 p.m. PST

Well, you could consider New France, New Spain, and New England (granted, one area kept the name, but it didn't work out too well for the Empire) for a start.

New Russia would also work out on the Pacific Coast, since the Russkies owned Alaska for some time, and explored at least as far south as SF Bay. They built Fort Ross, on the Mendocino Coast, and hired eskimos/natives to hunt for sea otter pelts. I imagine they may have had trappers taking other animal skins too, e.g. beaver, bear, deer, etc.

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP29 Nov 2011 8:09 p.m. PST

Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen.
link

I am the mongo29 Nov 2011 8:16 p.m. PST

so its not completely silly?

Mongo

willthepiper29 Nov 2011 8:36 p.m. PST

Are you only interested in 18th Century Imaginations? I have some crazy ideas for an alternate 1870-ish North America.

Personal logo Eli Arndt Supporting Member of TMP29 Nov 2011 8:37 p.m. PST

Not silly at all.

Even if it doesn't fit into actual history, you can always add a little alternate history or what-if to make it work.

-Eli

Personal logo Dale Hurtt Supporting Member of TMP29 Nov 2011 8:38 p.m. PST

No, it is not silly. There was a discussion of this on the Old School Wargaming forum on Yahoo, which has a strong representation of Imagi-Nation builders.

Dale

epturner Supporting Member of TMP29 Nov 2011 10:01 p.m. PST

Really? The British were "ready" to acknowledge a buffer state variously called "Huronia" or "Iroquoisia" to keep the US from expanding as early as the end of the AWI.

No worries. An alternate Imagi-Nation is out there.

Eric

Mako1130 Nov 2011 3:57 a.m. PST

Perhaps the Spanish don't get to Mexico, so the Aztecs, or American Indians rise up to fight off others.

Personal logo Chalfant Sponsoring Member of TMP30 Nov 2011 5:26 a.m. PST

Ahhh, another option…

link

Maybe a "modern" 19th century Viking or Mongol nation in NA.

Jeroen72 Inactive Member30 Nov 2011 7:49 a.m. PST

Aztecs with the Spanish confined to a few coastal places :)

Jeroen72 Inactive Member30 Nov 2011 7:56 a.m. PST

I could believe in a 18th/ 19th century nation in NA with heavy Viking influences…

But how would Mongols fit in North America :)

Personal logo Eli Arndt Supporting Member of TMP30 Nov 2011 8:07 a.m. PST

It'd be interesting to conceive of a North American native empire such as was seen south of the border. I know that North American native culture did reach a pretty high level in some places, but nothing like the Inca, Maya, or Aztecs.

I do believe, however, you are looking for an imagi-nation of European origins and that is certainly an option. Really, any european origin is a good one as just about everyone made a play for the continent. You could also place a nation on the american continent that never had a real footprint in history – turn the Mississipi into a 17th Century American version of the Belgian Congo? Perhaps a major Dutch colony?

-Eli

Mako1130 Nov 2011 10:30 a.m. PST

Perhaps Lichtenstein makes a play for global supremacy???!!!

jpattern2 Supporting Member of TMP30 Nov 2011 12:58 p.m. PST

Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's "Ariosto" takes place in a fantasty alternate Renaissance New World as imagined by the historical Medici court poet Ludovico Ariosto, author of "Orlando Furioso."

In the book, the Cérocchi (Cherokee) rule most of the central Atlantic: "This was the land of the Cérocchi, a place of endless forests and broad rivers originating far inland, at fabled springs, guarded by immense and gorgeous citadels where lived sagacious wizards and golden emperors." The Cérocchi are ruled by King Alberospetrale (Ghost-Tree) and Prince Falcone (Falcon). The Cérocchi are a mix of woodland Indian and Aztec/Mayan influences: tall copper-skinned warriors wearing jeweled leather, fur, and brocade clothing, with ornaments of gold, silver, and jewels, with headdresses of iridescent feathers in every color.

The Cérocchi and their allies the Pau Attan (Powhatan), the Scenandoa (Shenandoah), and other woodland Indian tribes are engaged in a war for survival against the sorcerers of the Fortezza Serpente (Serpent Fortress). The Serpente are led by the evil wizard Anatrecacciatore (Duck-Hunter). Their forces include "giants of flint and frost" and the undead, described as "the inflated skins of fallen Cérocchi."

Coming to the aid of the Cérocchi is the world-spanning Italia Federata, one of the colonizers of North America. The capital of their colony is the port city of Nuova Genova, probably corresponding to Norfolk, Wilmington, Charleston, or Savannah.

Ariosto is the greatest hero and poet-soldier of the Italia Federata, adviser to the King of the Cérocchi and leader of the armies. He rides his hippogriff Bellimbusto ("part horse and part gryphon") into battle. He's also in love with the beautiful Scenandoa Princess Aureoraggio (Golden Radiance) – imagine Dejah Thoris with copper skin and a *little* more clothing.

Even if you set aside the more fantastic aspects of the story, imagine Italian Renaissance armies fighting alongside woodland Cherokee warriors, against any of the other colonial powers. And it doesn't have to be set during the Renaissance, either; just move the timeline up to the 17th, 18th, or 19th Century.

Personal logo Eli Arndt Supporting Member of TMP30 Nov 2011 1:11 p.m. PST

Reminds me of my thread on what america might be like if Medieval or even Ancient colonists had taken hold there.

-Eli

RudyNelson30 Nov 2011 1:41 p.m. PST

North American Imagi-nations have been around since the 1970s as far as I have seen them played. Often they were based on a boardgame for the startegic map and then minis for the battle.

I ran an Imagi-nation napoleonic era campaign back in 1981 at Fort Riley KS. The country of Omni, the one truth, governed by Nelsonovitch.

The focus of time era is critical as to the participants. An Early Colonial scenario as Mako mentions has New Spain, New France, New England and new Russia. A few have added new Sweden and New Holland as much for flash points as anything. Also grand native Confederations with the usual suspects also were used.

I have seen later Imaginationbased in the 1850s with a British Canada, pacific Northwest Russia, Mexico, Texas and Californian Republics as well as the USA. native nations of course.

I have even seen one based on a North America where the USA was never established and every State became their own country. georgia and North Carolina absorbing South Carolina. Georgia is at constant war with Spanish Florida and the Muskogee Confederation.

Most countries ended at the Mississippi. Early wars were mainly the conquest of weaker neighbors. Massachusetts coquering New Hampshire and vermont as they already controlled 'Maine'. New York and Mass coming to blows over the Conn and Rhode Island land. Penn vs Virginia over the Ohio territory. Delaware maryland and New Jersey all being invaded by Penn, NY and Va. A fascinating scenario!

abdul666lw30 Nov 2011 1:52 p.m. PST

Three 'traditional' major powers of 'alternate' North America, as quoted by Iron Ivan Chal above, are:
- a thriving Vinland (by modern times, probably speaking a tongue very similar to that of the 'Real World™' Faroe Islands ?),
- a Sino-mongol empire along the West Coast (not discouraged by his Japanese failures, Kublai Khan sent a larger expedition to the 'further East', i.e. 'our' North America (with the Aleutian Islands as a stepping stone),
- a bloodthirsty Aztec Empire.

To these Phil 'WRG' Barker -building an imaginary setting where to test campaign and battle rules, from the Middle-Ages to the late 20th C.- added a *Briton* kingdom: after Arthur's demise at Camlann many Britons, following the tales of Avalon, Hy-Brasil and the travels of Saint Brandan, sailed West instead of merely going to Armorica (and transformating this last into Brittany Petite Bretagne 'Little Britain'.

When I want to present this setting to the 'Emperor vs Elector' community, I had to take into account the fact that the FIW were raging *also* in the 'EvE' 18th C.. Thus I had to drastically move Southward the Briton and Viking countries, in order to leave room enough for the British Colonies and Nouvelle France. As a consequence, French Louisiana disappeared (Florida staying Spanish, to leave Spain a foothold in Continental North America).

Another significant presence is that of Russia in Alaska -expeditions sent by Peter the Great rather than Catherine, discovering the Yukon gold.

Then I added a small Irish Free State (not yet sure if it's a Republic, or a federal kingdom under a Great King? What do you think?) -nothing original, Fenians in earlier times,
and a Jacobite Kingdom in Exile in Acadia link : just after Culloden Acadia was still populated mainly by French Catholics (The Grand Dérangement, the great 'Trail of Tears' of the Acadians to Louisiana started 10 years later). Idea probably suggested by the mention by Orson Scott Card in his Yankee-centered 'Tales of Alvin Maker' that (part of) what to be the South during the ACW was a kingdom (while Great Britain was a Cromwellian republic)?

Later I added (I use and abuse the possibility to edit blog posts!) minor countries suggested by members of 'EvE' (Ny Tradgarland to start with) or of the 'Old School Wargaming' and 'Socdaisy' Yahoo groups -regretfully none except Ny Tradgarland really 'took off' -most of corresponding links are now 'dead'-, but they are saved 'for the record'.
I also added, for the fun of it, a few statelets: a Spanish island in the Gulf of Mexico / Caribbean turned independent during the WSS (I always wanted a setting for those Spaniards still in morion that face pirates by 'tricorne' times in so many comics and a few movies), a scattered Republique des Corsaires centered on Île de la Tortue and Nassau, the Royaume de Barataria (Lafitte stroke earlier!), the 'free Mandingo' state of Gracia Real de Santa Teresa de Mose, a 'Sea of grass' culture from the 'Horseclans'…

Currently (I'm ready to add new Imagi-Nation, though I may have to relocate them slightly so they fit -actually 'our' alternate 18th C. is a Multiverse with several avatars) the map looks like:

picture

[edit: don't know why the jpg does not appear as an image? The link below works]
1.bp.blogspot.com/_Dilwnimo0MI/SaapVKZw4zI/AAAAAAAABNo/SI0Z7Z_aEtU/s1600-h/++Fict_LW_N.AM8%C2%B0.jpg]map
Full description (and some mentions of European colonies other Continents):
link
(And yes, I know that 'Cipango' is actually an old name for Japan, but it was too good to waste; and it allowed 'Cipanguese', so that the 4 names of the 'major powers' end differently).


A point still unsolved: what would be the name of the Continent? Obviously not 'America'! Since in this 'time line' it was discovered by Britons at a time when Latin was the common tongue of the educated, probably a Latin form of a Briton name, but which one? Imprudently I already used Avallon (with 2 'l') and Brazil… For the time being I strongly support 'Hesperides' (plural): some well-readed people of the early 7th C. having associated the apples of Avalon with the golden apples of the Garden of the Hesperides en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesperides

abdul666lw30 Nov 2011 1:57 p.m. PST

@ I am the mongo: please keep us informed! Deserves a blog!

I am the mongo30 Nov 2011 2:22 p.m. PST

I am considering something based on a 18th century German State in the Northeast in close enough proximity to be at war with New France.
I have visions of french infantry supported by Algonguin allies engaging grenadiers in mitres. Now I have to order those Eureka SYW Prussians.

Mongo

abdul666lw30 Nov 2011 2:28 p.m. PST

'Iconic' Germans close to New France?
'Oumpah-pah vs Foie Malade {sick liver}':

picture

RudyNelson30 Nov 2011 5:53 p.m. PST

Mongo when designing your campaign map. I would consider a point to point system or an Area option. the grid maps will not reflect the dominance of the rivers as a major transportation route.

Point-to point does this well.
Areas would need sub-areas making up each one.

I am the mongo30 Nov 2011 6:04 p.m. PST

RudyNelson

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you clarify?

Mongo

Timbo W30 Nov 2011 6:05 p.m. PST

Bah! America's Welsh I tell you, Welsh!

Named after Richard ap Meurig of course link

There's lovely now isn't it?

(Warning, the above may not be strictly accurate in every respect….)

epturner Supporting Member of TMP30 Nov 2011 7:24 p.m. PST

Timbo;
Ah, the Welsh. It's always the Welsh, isn't it?

Eric

RudyNelson01 Dec 2011 8:31 a.m. PST

Mongo,
There are three commonly used movement systems used to design campaign maps. These are grid (hex or square), area (irregular shaped zones that covers a large number of key locations <towns an resources> and point-to-point (movement lines connecting towns or key terrain features).

Which type you use should be based on several factors. Major Supply movement systems, size of the armies and countries. A grid can be difficult for units to make contact. Weak opponents can easily avoid combat.

Area systems are good if the control of resources and towns are the focus of the campaign rather than combat between armies. Good when the control of a town/fort means dominance in a whole region. If an area contains several towns or resources (horses, iron, gold) then you can divide the area into sub-areas each centered on a resource or town. Controling all of the sub-areas will give you bonuses 9recruitment or economic production points, taxes. Areas do not consider the mode of transporation as rails, roads and rivers are considered plentiful.

Point to point in my opinion is good for primitive pre-rail or pre-urbanization (large settled areas). In these times troops and supplies were transported by a limited number of roads or rivers. Point to point would connect towns and maybe key terrain feautres like mountain passes, river crossings. (Choke points) Point to point encourages combat between forces for control of towns and resources.

abdul666lw01 Dec 2011 10:22 a.m. PST

Btw, North America seems specially propitious to 'weird' encounters:
link

picture

link
picture

link
picture

link
link
picture

= link[/url
link
picture

link
link
link
link
picture

picture

Sorry - only trusted members can post on the forums.