"Mt Vesuvius Vs the Allies" Topic

You never really think that Nature still has it's own agenda,other then winter or storms, whether or not humans are involved. I had never heard about the eruption of Mt Vesuvius and the damage it caused in March of 44.78 B-25s were destroyed. Robert
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My dad was in the hospital in Naples after being wounded at Anzio when Vesuvius erupted. Hospital personnel went through the ward and put helmets on all the patient's heads.
I'm sure that made them feel much safer.

Never heard about that before, quite impressive.

Then again, in spring 2010 a volcano erupting in Iceland stopped a lot of flight traffic in Europe, due to the fear that the jet engines could be damaged by the amount of volcanic ash in the air.

I've wondered what would have happened if a huge tsunami hit Japan during the war… Or the fleet on their way to Pearl Harbour hit by a typhoon and sunk like the Mongols…

Well the invasion of Japan was planned for November 1945, but of course cancelled due to the atom bombs. On the planned date there was a huge typhoon that wrecked a number of ships and forward bases. Divine Wind?!?!

"March 19, 1944: After a long "sleep" the Vesuvius begin to wake and from 21 until 29 March is in eruption. Medium bombers B-25s from 447th Bomb Squadron of USAAF's 321st Bombardment Group, based at Gaudo Airfield, near Paestum, passed very near the erupting Vesuvius on their way to bomb targets. Note the huge cloud erupted by volcano rising to 5,000 meters and the great lava flow. At the time at the foot of Vesuvius on Terzigno Airfield is based the 340th Bombardment Group equipped with medium bombers B-25s Mitchell. From diary of Dr. Leander K. Powers which served in Italy during World War II: "Monday, March 19, 1944 – I learned that a stream of lava was flowing down the side toward Naples, so we rode over to see it. It was the most phenomenal thing I have ever witnessed. A huge mass of fiery coals some 20 feet high and 200 yards wide destroying everything in its path. There were many people evacuating their homes, which we saw destroyed as the lava pressed on. At night, the sky and countryside was bright for miles around. Flames were shooting into the sky for thousands of feet" (from web site of 340th Bomb Group). "

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"From diary of Dr. Dr. Leander K. Powers. "March 22, 1944 – Thursday morning, we rode down beyond Pompeii. The cinders were so deep that traffic was stopped. Along about noon, the wind changed and the cinders began falling on Torre Annunziata. Everything had a coat of black, just like light snow. We rode up toward the Naples side on the Autostrade, and, as the wind was blowing toward town, I got a wonderful view of the boiling inferno. Yesterday, I rode into the town that was destroyed by the flowing lava and apparently the flow was coming to a stop, but the devastation was terrific. Tonight there is a lot of lightning coming from the crater and infrequent blasts. I learned from an Allied Military Government officer that 78 planes (B-25) were destroyed on the Pompeii airfield (Terzigno Airfield) during the past few days by the lava and cinders"."

Its pretty amazing what the ash did to the B-25s. I guess most were total losses. Now if the molten lava had hit the airfield? I think that its kind of different from a typhoon though which could be somewhat predicted. Especially in the Pacific. Robert

@Pedrobear:

There was a massive earthquake in Japan in late 44/early 45 that did more damage to aircraft plants than all the bombing conducted by the US air forces. As the earthquake actually knocked all the machinery off of their bases.

The allies were lucky in that Vesuvius only erupted ash and not the same type of pyroclastic flow that buried pompeii/herculeum.

It did have the lava flow that IIRC did get close into the town and close to the airfield. And what was mentioned in the quote above. Robert

So there was! link

This is in one of Spike Milligan's military memoirs – Where Have All the Bullets Gone to be precise – he was in a rehabilitation camp for combat fatigue cases right under the volcano.

Grief, that 2010 volcano took away my trip to Salute. I will never forgive Iceland!

I wonder how wide an area around Vesuvius was it where aircraft were grounded. Robert

If I remember my trip to Mt St Helens correctly, a "pyroclastic flow" is like a hundred foot high river of boiling soot that either destroys or buries everything in its path. Much more destructive more quickly than lava.

Well that does seem to be what Dr.Powers was describing.
"A huge mass of fiery coals some 20 feet high and 200 yards wide destroying everything in its path. There were many people evacuating their homes, which we saw destroyed as the lava pressed on." Robert

More the just aircraft were effected. Robert

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Pyroclastic Flow is an 'avalanche' of superheated air and ash that is thrown out of a volcano by an explosive eruption and which hurtles downhill at supersonic speeds. The most obvious example is the eruption of Mt St Helens, which those of us who are old enough all saw on TV – the bloody great boiling cloud of grey dust that burst out of the side of the volcano, destroying everything in its path for 20+ miles was pyroclastic flow.

It's a very different and MUCH more dangerous beast than lava flow, as it kills, cooks and buries everything in its path within seconds of the explosion. Very, very scary indeed. In the case of the Krakatoa eruption, the pyroclastic flow even crossed seas and destroyed towns on islands over a hundred miles away!

Not the same Philadelphia beloved by the tinfoil hat brigade for disappearing and reappearing?

"THE ERUPTION OF 1944

On March 13, 1944 the conelet partially collapsed forming a depression of about 20 m depth. A slight explosive activity partially rebuilt the conelet on the 14th. This activity lasted intermittently till the 18th. At 16.30 (local time) of the 18th a lava flow was rapidly emitted form the remains of the conelet, overcome the crater wall on the northern side and reached the Somma caldera wall below the Punta del Nasone.
Lava Flows
On the evening of 18 March there are several lava flows on Gran Cono. On the evening of 19, at 11am , the northern flows reaches Fosso della Vetrana and , in the evening, the first houses of Massa and S. Sebastiano. The villages are invaded by the lava flows that reaches a distance to 1,5 km from the central Cercola (22 March).
Lava Fountains
The fist lava fountain starts on March 21 at 21:17 and last for about 30 minutes causing an accumulation of scaoriae on the flank of Gran Cono. Other 7 lava fountains last until the next day
Mixed explosions
The last lava fountain culminates with the formation of a sustained ash plume which reaches about 5 km above the crater rim. This phase and the following one are accompanied by the formation of small pyroclastic flows on the flank of the volcano.
Final phase
On 27 e 28 the explosions are more rare and less violent, on 29, the eruption ends.

On 29 March, the crater, lay like on an plane piano inclined from north-east to south-west, has a maximum depth of 300 m with respect to the rim and a perimeter, of 1,6 Km. The western rim has an height of 1.169 m as.l. and the north-east 1.300 m asl.

The effects of the eruption
The eruption of Vesuvius of 1944 occurs shortly after the arrival in Naples of the allied forces in world war II. Because of war the Vesuvius Observatory is a metereological station of armed forces and the Observatory director, Giuseppe Imbò, occupies only one room to make its fundamental observations of the eruption. the eruption caught by surprise the militaty and destroyed the airforce planes stationed in the airport of Terzigno east of the mountain. An entire wing of 88 B-25 was damaged by the eruption. There were a few casualties caused by the explosion of a water tank invested by a lava flow. The major economic losses resulted by the destruction of the villages of S.Sebastiano and Massa by the lava flow.

The crater rim has an elliptic form with a major axis of 580 m (east-west) and a minor of 480 m (north-south). The shape a the crater is modifid by subsequent collapses tha continue til the present time."

Even though. It didn't take the lava flow long to reach San Sebastiano and Massa ay 50-100 MPH. They both were destroyed. Robert

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The pyroclastic flow over water from Krakatoa actually travelled a "mere" 40km (25 miles), rather than over a hundred miles.

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Thanks Colin. My poor memory. I thought there was a whole coastline over 100 miles away that was flattened? If it actually existed outside my imagination, perhaps that was just blast effect?

The tsunamis created by the explosion itself and by the massive amount of material flung and "pumped" into the sea killed people and flattened towns and villages at great distance.

Probably the best general text on Krakatoa is Simon Winchester's "Krakatoa: The Day The World Exploded, August 27, 1883". As well as being an accurate and detailed history of the event, it is also a cracking good read.

"The volcano destroyed more of the 340th Bombardment Group's aircraft (estimates vary between 78 and 88) than the devastating German Luftwaffe air raid of the 340th base at Alesani, Corsica on May 13, 1944 (about 75 aircraft). At Pompeii Airfield on March 23, 1944 nearly all of the 340th's B-25 Mitchell medium bombers were covered with hot ash that burned the fabric control surfaces, glazed, melted, or cracked the Plexiglass, and even tipped some B-25s onto their tails from the weight of the ash and tephra.

No lives were lost at Pompeii Airfield and the only casualties in the 340th were a sprained wrist and a few cuts, but the effects of the volcano on the aircraft proved insurmountable despite a major effort by the 12th Air Force to repair and salvage the damaged planes."

With the effect that the ash had on the B-25s themselves it looks like it wouldn't have been a good idea to be outside for sure. Robert

Footage of the explosion. Robert
Eruption Of Mt Vesuvius 1944
youtu.be/1bsmv6PyKs0

Was just thinking on how things might have been different on the volcanic islands during the war. Like Hawaii,Rabaul and Iwo Jima or Kiska. Robert

Also does anyone take into account the weather as a factor in their gaming and how much of an effect does it have? Robert

Cheers Colin. Duly added to the Chrimbo list.

R Mark, you will enoy it:).

Also does anyone take into account the weather as a factor in their gaming and how much of an effect does it have? For example Monsoons Or how would you game the effect of the volcanic ash and cloud? Robert