"Waterloo 1815-2015 - Best wargaming scale?" Topic

Fellow Napoleonics tragics,

I know we regularly have discussions about THE best scale for Napoleonics, I am not trying to resurrect one of these…

What I am requesting are your thoughts on my specific conundrum:

I am devoted to my growing collection of 28mm, greatly enhanced with the ever increasing range of cheap and detailed hard plastics, which as far as I am concerned are the best thing since sliced bread;

I have been using this collection to recreate some biggish games of the Napoleonic Bicenntenials as they occur, not without some positive commentary sparkerswargames.blogspot.com but I really want the 18th of June 2015 to be the outstanding commemorative wargame of my life, I want it to be something I will recall on my deathbed with a smile (with all due recognition of the pleasure my wife, family, friends and shipmates, have given me);

And in my heart of hearts I can't help feeling that even in a phased game, 28mm is not the scale to do Waterloo on my 12 x6 table;

I do have a small 15mm collection, but, considering the 28mm painting tasks I already have to bring my Russians and Prussians and Austrians up to scratch for the 1812, 13 and 14 refights, the window between the first abdication and Waterloo won't give me enough time to paint up sufficient extra 15 millers…

12mm, on the other hand, presumably don't take much painting, and might allow me to do much of Waterloo on my table with ease…

Anything below 12mm would be too hard on my forty something eyes, and any way, I want the game to be a breathtaking visual spectacle…

And what of rulesets? Grande Armee seems to have had rave reviews, but is it going to be replaced by Blucher? Will Blucher be out in time for 2015, and will it be based on Brigade basing?

Most grateful for any thoughts – I can't be the only one thinking along these lines – Can I?

I'd recommend 18mm (AB Miniatures if money is no object).
But then there is the issue of terrain. If you build up a 15 / 18mm collection you need the terrain to match.
If I had all the required 28mm figs AND all the required terrain I'd go with that.
Probably not much help,…

Hi Mate,

Yes I agree wholeheartedly about AB miniatures, they are beauts. But I think the 18mm figures tend to take the same time to paint as 28mms, so although that scale would improve things as far as ground scale goes, I don't thnk I will have the time to do every unit for Waterloo…

Whereas with 12mm, it might be possible? But would the end result be worth the effort visually?

Of course I suppose its all just a subjective thing – no way I can get all of Waterloo on my table in 28mm, but at least what portion I represent would look good….

Is it safe to asume you don't want to use Grand Armee with your 28s?

I faced a similar dilemma about a year ago, running out of space for 28mm for the 200th anniversary fights. After much debate I settled on 10mm and a 1:20 scale. They are cheap and very fast to paint, cheap to post here, and good detail considering the size. The size and spectacle is about right, and I think I can do most of the 100 days battles on a 12" x 6" board. I am using Republic to Empire which works well for this size – just convert the inces to cm and everything comes out fine.

After a year I almost have enough for Quatre Bras, they should be finished by mid 2012. Waterloo next then Ligny (as a few Corps in Ligny never made it to Waterloo). Lots of figures to paint. Coloured undercoat, blocking colours, dip then pick out the highlights. I can paint a unit a night without distractions.

There are good ranges of figures for 1815 – Redline is my favourite (nice detail and proportions), or Old Glory, MAgister Militum (bit chunky but good range) and GHQ. Pendraken have nice figures but not many 1815

Some progress pictures -

And some close ups

More can be found at 10mmnapoleonics.blogspot.com

It's worth noting that the famous Sibourne Diorama of Waterloo done a few decades after the battle used 75,000 hand made 10mm figures in a 1:2 ratio. I like to think 10mm as being one of the original scales!!

Good luck, better start painting soon. I'm just down the road in Canberra, maybe we spit up the forces to play? Save painting 10,000 miniatures.

28mm,build more tables.

Vickie%John

Stryker:

From "The Waterloo Companion" by Mark Adkin

Anglo-Allied army: 53,85o Infantry, 13,350 Cavalry, 157 guns/5,000 men

French Army: 53,400 Infantry, 15,600 Cavalry, 246 guns with 6,500 men

Prussians: 38,000 Infantry, 7,000 Cavalry, 134 guns/2500 men

Using the map in said book, the entire front of the French and British armies is only about 4000 meters ( there is the matter of the French right and the Prussian advance on Placenoit, but that didn't develop until about 4:30 PM).

In 28mm we use Field of Battle, which at base scale is approximately 1" = 25 meters, and roughly 1 figure = 50 men, 1 Battery = 6-8 guns. For Wagram, admittedly a huge battle, I used about 250% of this, or 1" = 60 yards, 1 figure = 125 men. For Borodino we're using about 150% of the base scale. So, if you used 200% of this that would make 1" = 50M, 1 figure = 100 men.

At that scale Waterloo would need:

Anglo-British:
540 Infantry
134 Cavalry
15 Batteries

French:
534 Infantry
156 cavalry
20 Batteries

Prussians*:
Up to 380 Infantry
Up to 70 cavalry
Up to 13 Batteries

* almost certainly you don't need all of these, some didn't appear on the field until 7:30 PM, by which time the result was long determined.

a 6 by 12 foot table would represent 7200 M long x 2600 M deep.

You presumably will have most of French, Prussians, and British you'll need, but may need to paint Nassau, Brunswick, and Dutch Belgians, etc. Club project? Even though my collection is large (just topped 5,000 25mm Napoleonics this month in total), that's how we're doing these really big battles. I don't know, seems pretty do-able to me :-) (but recall we're now making a habit of running big multiplayer convention games!) , although I think you'd need a "wing on the French right to allow for the Prussian attack.

We will do Quatre-Bras in 28mm in 2015 for sure, and most probably Ligny and Waterloo as well.

There are many other rules that could handle this as well, including Grand Armee, Shako, Volley and Bayonet, Snappy Nappy, LFS, and many more.

10mm would certainly work… but you know you really want to do a project like this in 28mm, don't you? <evil cackle>

Peter

Don't go small, stay with 28's….Find a local church or community center that will let you set up games, who knows you may start a brand new club. Usually community centers and churches have tables you can use. Go big with your dream, so that on your deathbed you will know that you did Waterloo in 28!…..What did Wellington say?….."In for a penny, in for a pound."

Actually, I think the Siborne diorama is in 1/300th scale….

I agree that 10mm are quicker to paint up and probably as small as I would go. I love 6mm for the mass effect but 10mm still captures Naps well IMO.

However, 18mm is currently the smallest while retaining pretty much all of the detail I would want which is why it is my favorite scale. More than one person has mistaken AB figures for 25mm figures in pictures. Having said this, Calpe are amazing in 28mm.

I will be painting 10mm too however as there is a local group that does DBN in this scale. They are quick to paint up and they still look the part.

I have a bunch of 6mm and I love the scale too. But in the end 15mm has become my main collection pursuit due to being able to paint all the detail I want while allowing for bigger battles in a smaller space than 28mm.

IF I were trying to paint soldiers up quickly, I would choose between 10mm and 6mm. If you want mass effect and blazing fast painting, 6mm is the way to go and I would choose Baccus. If I wanted a bit more visual appeal and the quick painting, I would choose 10mm.

Absolutely doable in 15/18mm scale. 6 of us re-fought Waterloo at MOAB (Mother-of-all-Battles – A Convention in Sydney) back in the late 90's. We did it with all AB figures on a table about 12 x 6. 2 of us supplied the armies. We were using Valmy to Waterloo rules at the time and playing at 1:60 scale. We got a decisive result played through to conclusion in a bit over 2 days – at a Convention with all the distractions and no gaming in the evenings. It was wonderful fun.

Doing it again I'd use my current rules that work a bit faster but I'd stay with 15mm – I find that 15/18mm gives me the big battle spectacle when I stand back from the table and yet I can zoom in close and still have the detail, best of both perspectives.

I'll definitely be re-fighting Waterloo come 2015 and I've done lots of the 200th Anniversary's as they've passed over the last few years. All ready for Borodino now and setting up the Struggle for the Schevardino Redoubt early in the new year. :)

I think you can (should) do it in 28mm; it would look appropriately spectacular. Best, Dean

Well thank you Gentlemen for the encouragement, inspiration, and as I'd hoped, food for thought…

Ironlegs your pictures are spectacular, I am amazed by the Scots Greys in 10mm, still perfectly distinctive and looking good. I have signed up to your blog, I may be seeking further advice…

Without wanting to sound like a polly I agree at one and the same time with those recommending 15mm and those encouraging me to stick with the 28mm madness…I myself have often mistaken some of the 18mm figures posted on here as 28's…

It would be quite a claim to have said I wargamed Waterloo in 28mm!

Well I have sent off for a couple of packs of Magister Militum 10mm Brits and French, I guess I should paint those up and time myself on how long it takes…

Its encouraging also that there is some interest in and around the Boomerang Coast for this project, if it all goes horribly wrong it sounds as if I should be able to invite myself around to somebody else's bash…I expect interest in this battle will quicken as the Bicenntennial approaches…

As for rules, yes Grande Armee is definately a contact of interest, but not in 28mm! I'm thinking more of two 30 figure 10mm units on a coffee coaster representing a Bde type ruleset so that 6-8 of the 'Gong posse can fight the 18th June, including the Prussian contribution, on the 18th June, and finish in time for pre dinner stengahs, some Beef Wellington and a couple of glasses of claret!

At least Boney had the good sense not to open the ball until a civilised hour, to allow subsequent gamers the chance to get ahead of the game with an early start!

Actually, I think the Siborne diorama is in 1/300th scale….

Which one are you referring to? There are two:

The "Large Model" (at the NAM, Chelsea is 20ft square at a groundscale of 9ft to the mile, the figures are 10mm tall and the figure ratio is 1:2 (1 figure represents 2 men).

The "New Model" is at the Armouries in Leeds, measures 18 ft 4 in. by 7 ft 5 in, and shows the area around the Brussels-Wavre crossroads including the farm of La Haye Sainte where Picton's Division engaged the Divisions of Donzelot, Alix and Marcognet. The ground scale is 1in to 15ft and the figures are approximately 1in high.

you are mostly talking size not scale , 15mm is 1/100 18mm is what? etc..

I make figures especially for Waterloo in 15mm with historically correct uniforms. link
It's Campaign Game Miniatures. If you need any info on Waterloo I'm your man. I`ve been years researching the uniforms and campaign and not only in Enlgish. I've walked every inch of the battlefield.
My research is in depth and up to date. AB do not do figures for Waterloo. I can assure you my figures are as good if not better. But I have not been good at marketing them so they are relatively unknown. But here is a comment from a painter I got yesterday: "I've used all sorts of figures over the years and find yours to be up there with the best!! They're a joy to paint. Well done!"

I will be announcing a Christmas discount later this week for my figures.
Armies completed so far Brunswick, Nassau (the only ones on the market in correct uniforms for Waterloo at any scale!)
Dutch and Belgians, Hanoverians, Orange Nassau, & French and British have all the basic troops and are going to be completed with all the extras in 2012. Also doing Borodino Russians now but my French in Bardin uniform are perfect for that too.
Happy Christmas, Dermot Quigley Campaign Game Miniatures

Just a minor point.

6mm = 1:300 scale or 1:285 (US)
9mm = 1:200 scale
10mm = 1:188.88 scale
12mm = 1:160 (sometines as large 10mm to 12mm)
15mm = 1:120 scale
18mm = 1:100 scale
20mm = 1:87 scale [HO scale]
20mm = 1:76 scale [OO scale]
25mm = 1:72 scale
28mm = 1:60 scale [original 28mm – D&D]
28mm = 1:56 scale [WRG]
40mm = 1:43.5 or 1:43
54mm = 1:32 or 1:30.5
77mm = 1:25 (Europe) and 1:24 (US)

Stephen

I am also planning to wargame the 100 days by June 2015 as a celebration of the bicentennial. I had a look at the Warhammer Waterloo book and the 12 scenario campaign is just right for me. I do have to paint quite a few Belgians, Nassau and Prussians, but the scale of the battles in the campaign is quite doable on a 12 x 8 table (in most cases smaller is fine). The OB's are somewhat scaled down, but clearly allow the flavour of each engagement and best of all I can do it in 28 mm scale. I am not sure whether I will use the Warhammer rules for all the battles, but the info in the book is easily transferable to Lasalle, Black Powder, FoB, or RtoE.

John

Waterloo was a relatively small battle field, about 3 miles wide. Thats is doable in a ground scale that fits 28mm models.

You still should do Placenoit on a seperate or added table, because it would be at the place, where your french players need to stand.

I would say, the best size in 28mmm is a unit on the table is a regiment of two bataillons. You get all the detail of the different historical units (in brigade scale you often have to include Hannoverians and British in one wargaming unit), but at the same time, a corps will be playable by one gamer. That is something, that is often not possible with bataillon rules.

One possibility is to plan a Waterloo commemorative game with several players, so that each produce some of the figures, rather than one war gamer trying to produce them all. We did this back in 1990, on a massive pair of tables, one for Waterloo and one for Placenoit, with hundreds of figures using Grand Manner rules.

Our figures were a mixture of my 1:72 plastics and others 25mm metal, but we had every unit represented. I played Wellington, and just (only just) managed to hold out until the Prussians arrived. We had 6 or 7 Players per side, plus an umpire.

Rod

Hi

IMO the issue is really about the size of play surface you have available.

Personally I am way past the point where I want to have a large table sitting in my spare room so micro scale gaming on a maximum of 4' square is my remit.

It then becomes reasonably straight foward working out what figure scale to use – you could do 28mm or even larger on my 4' square, but a few figures would have to represent a division.

In my case I have a few dozen 6mm figures on a base representing a brigade or division (depending on the
scenario/battle).

Again, the rules you will decide upon will follow from the game table size and figure/organisational scale you choose.

I think that figure scale causes people all kinds of problems because without a clear idea of the play space available you are kinda jumping the gun on what is realistic.

These comments are general ones and not necessarily aimed at the original poster.

My Napoleonics collection is nearly all 6mm, but if I were you I'd stick with 28s – it is what you have, it is clearly what you like, I'd keep with that.

What I would do is try a couple of "big battle" rules (Grande Armee, Polemos, HFG, Volley & Bayonet, any of the ones mentioned in the frequent posts on the subject like TMP link ) to see if I could live with 12 x 28mms representing a brigade. If you can, no dramas, problem solved. If you can't, I'd do a 50% bathtubbed game – so about 30-35 battalions per army, which should work okay given your existing collections,and on your existing terrain? You could keep using your favoured "Black Powder" rules as well and for me, if planning the ultimate wargame of my life, using my favourite rules (because they are the 'game', as opposed to the 'spectace') would be part of that experience.

And after all, the classic 'The Wargame' link reduces Mollwitz to about a division or so per side…

Regards

Our group is planning on doing Waterloo in 2015 as well. We game with Shako 2 rules in 28mm. The only hold we have at the moment is Prussians, which I am painting, Calpe figures.

This will be a battalion level game, that we play in a rec room. Our last two big battles were Wagram and Austerlitz. We are planning on doing Borodino next year as well.

Go for the 28mm and find a larger table. It's worth it.

Here's some photos of Wagram.
link

Cheers,
Thomas

One consideration should be ground scale. Assuming 15mm figures and 12 fig battalions, an inch is about 50 yards. So your 12' table comes to about 4.3 miles wide. Is that big enough?

If you favor more figures per battalion, you might still make it work. How wide was the Waterloo battlefield?

I'm doing it in 28mm, and damn the obstacles. In order to do it, I've thrown out scale and history and other trivialities and I'm calling it Boys Own Waterloo or 'The Movie Version'. It will have 1200 28mm figs on an 8' x 6' table. Photos are in halves until I do my first game of it in early February.

The French left:

The French right (missing Plancenoit buildings):

D'Erlon's attack:

If you favor more figures per battalion, you might still make it work. How wide was the Waterloo battlefield?

About 3 miles wide, less than 6000 yards. A 12-foot wide board is 7200y wide at a fairly comfortable 1"=50y groundscale.

you are mostly talking size not scale , 15mm is 1/100 18mm is what? etc..

That's the thing. There isn't a 'standardized' scale to the different sizes. If you assume an average person is 60" to the eyes (5'3" average height), then 15mm is 1/100. If you assume that an average person is 180cm boots-to-top-of-head, then 18mm is 1/100. I'm more concerned about the crispness of the details and how the minis look next to each other than X is 15mm and Y is 18mm.

Great project Malcolm! Is there, or will there be, a blog or other web presence for it? I'd be interested to hear more about your terrain.

AB for a specific Waterloo project? Ideal other than no 1815 French & Brits or Dutch Belgians & Nassauers either! Eureka fill some of the gaps. CGM would be my choice is going 15/18mm.

Ironlegs they look really nice! Malcolm too, some really well painted figs.

I think 28mm 1:1 is the way forward! link

6mm Adler and baccus

20mm:

link

Yup – 20mm for me. I use 2mm to the yard as a ground scale to suit my 1:20 figure basing, with a French battalion in column being aroudn 120mm wide, say 60 yards/metres. So cannot fit ALL of the battle in, but definitely can get a lot of the best bits covered. Problem with 1mm to 2yds (1" to 50 yards) is that sometimes people don't use the small units that it requires, and so the table can get quite crowded.

My money remains on the Perrys putting the best 28mm demo on – and I reckon Salute for that, unless they can find a better show around mid June 2015 :-)

Great stuff Ochoin! What rules were you using?

6mm for the big battles.

15mm for the smaller battles or part of a battle

28mm for large actions, a Corps at most.

M

15mm because that is what my Napoleonic miniatures are in. My table is 8x6 foot. With a 1:20 ratio, easy to put a whole corps on the battlefield with room to manuever.