"Where is the line?" Topic

I was asked, where the lines between Imagi-nation and pure fantasy lay.

This is an interesting question and not neccesarily one I expect there to be a single answer to. I have seen some imag-nations that have horror elements thrown in, highly fanciful political or military elements (like mine!) and even in one case, based on a Lace Wars version of a classic fantasy kingdom.

So, is there a line? If so, where do you draw the line?

I had actually considered add mammoths to my Alcovian setting because the image of a hairy elephant carrying musket-toting Eastern European soldiers was just too cool. I decided against it because it seemed to be venturing into the realm of silly.

-Eli

I'd agree that the elephant wouldn't work, but not so much on the grounds of silliness, more on whether elephants would be used in 18th Century European warfare; the presence of gunpowder weapons would suggest they wouldn't get far (I'll allow they were used in India at the time, how successfully I don't know).
If your fantasy universe has some sort of allowance for that, like very heavy armour, then that's fine; it depends on how fantastical it is (many imaginations are alternative realities, rather than fantasy worlds) but I think the more internal consistency your world has the better.

I'd say you are treading into fantasy with the mammoths, but it sounds really cool. Maybe Lace Pulp. Can it reasonably be incorporated into what you want your "world" to lok like?

For my SYW the only fantasy that I'm going to indulge in, besides 2 mythical states, will be for Horror gaming. Will have werewolves, witches and the like and the noble witchhunters to put paid to their wickedness.

No dragons, or mammoths, elves and what not.

Well, the war mammoth/elephant idea was included in way of example, but I will likely do at least one, just to see what it would look like. If anything it'll be fun to make and a nice show-off piece.

IMHO, ImagiNations are fictitious countries that are presumed to have existed within the real world: thus, many ImagiNations are minor Germanic states that could easily have been art of the historical Holy Roman Empire; satellites of the Napoleonic Empire, or countries that could have come into being following the wars of liberation in South America. They use weapon – and other – technology that existed at the time, but their governments might be prepared to experiment with contemporary ideas that did exist, but failed to be adopted, such as Cugnot's artillery tractor, Rowlandson's military fly and Fulton's steamboats and submarine Nautilus.

Fictitious countries that employ technology that never became practicable, such as Henson's Aeriel Steam Carriage, magic or prehistoric creatures are fantasy.

I suppose part of determining where the line is depends on who you are playing with as well. If everyone wants over the top Lace Punk then the lines is much more "out there".

-Eli

Well… unless you are setting up a battlefield that mirrors the real battle and make the moves the historical opponents made and set the mechanics of the rules so that the historical winner is the game winner you are engaging in a type of fantasy. True historical gamers are not going to put a wooly mammoth in their Seven Years War game, but this ImagiNationS at play.
Is a wooly mammoth so different from an Indian war elephant? Could not a Russian themed ImagiNation have war mammoths brought from their Siberian game preserve? I think the only limit is your imagination for your ImagiNation and what your gaming group agrees on as to what is permitted.

Heehee…

"Noooo…is not mammoth..is just elephant bought from Turks. We give him fur coat. Is very cold in Alcovia"

Boris Tukko
Chief Handler – Royal Alcovian Menagerie

In the commonly accepted meaning (*not* that of dictionaries) 'Fantasy' implies *magic* / supernatural of some sort.
'Carnevale' TMP link , 'Pike & Shot & Zombies' (who will use it to play 'Pride & Prejudice & Zombies' YouTube link YouTube link by the time of Barry Lyndon?), Anatoli's adaptation of 'Strange Aeons' to the 18th C., 'Colonial Horror', 'Chaos in Carpathia' (perfectly playable with 18th C. minis)… do have an essential Fantasy element. Can be combined with a "what-if?" Imagi-Nation, e.g. 18th C. Ruritania, yet generally played in some 'historical' setting.

Surviving mammoths in 18th C. Siberia is more of a 'Sci-Fi' (of biological nature) "What-if?", thus just a touch of Lacepunk. Far less far-fetched than the 'Lost World' dinosaurs frequently encountered by pirates. And the models would look good, an essential point! WRG '1685-1835' had rules for war elephants (for the India theatre), other sets for sure have. I know some 'historical' gamers toyed with the idea of jingal elephants and zamberek camels in Prussian service -a gift from the Sultan as a token of anti-Austrian sympathy. Oddly, most examples of 'Lacepunk' are set in such 'historical' background, e.g. the AWI: link (re. also the recent '3 Musketeers 3D' with flying warships YouTube link).

Anyway 'any advanced enough science cannot be distinguished from magic'. The Age of Reason knew Benjamin Franklin, Messmer… but also Cagliostro and Saint-Germain. I'm not sure most people of the time really saw a difference….

The reticence towards spicing an Imagi-Nary army with a little Fantasy or SF reminds me of the situation among late 19th C. wargamers: they seem more at ease with Belgians on Mars than with Ruritanians on Earth, and seemingly never combine the two approaches: would be "Too Much"?.

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Imho the "limit" is a matter of *scales*: Fantasy as well as SF are tolerable (by common previous agreement) as long as they do not change the type of warfare (otherwise one would be playing WarhammerFB or Space 1889 with minis in tricornes, but no longer mid-18th C. warfare):

- gaming scale: skirmishes / adventures are more propitious to 'Lacepulp' than large battles -hordes of werewolves or zombies would change the type of warfare, e.g. justifying the re-introduction of Hussite-type war wagons (re. the battle of the Blood River link : same type of opponents, using only hand-to-hand weapons). Id° for 'Lacepunk': a single Puckle machine-gun, a few revolvers (handgun version of the Puckle), can be fun in a skirmish / 'Pulp' adventure, arming whole regiments they would put you out of the 18th C.

- 'contamination' scale: in a Fontenoy-like battle, a *single* (unreliable) prototype of steamtank would not alienate the type of warfare, the deployment, units formations, tactics… And it would NOT be a far-fetched SF "What-if?": steam engines were used since the early 18th C. to drain mines, Cugnot's fardier could have been built 60 years earlier than in 'our time line'. The 'Turtle' submarine of the AWI already used screw propellers that were ignored by the 'surface' navies for decades.

- 'dimensional' scale: *functional* fighting flying machines (or dragons, ŕ la 'Temeraire') would totally change the nature of warfare.

And thus an Alcovian war mammoth is perfectly agreeable.
I'm probably biased, but I found 'reasonable' SF "What-if?" far less far-fetched than Fantasy ones (then, if vampires, zombies and the like are not 'undead' but living people contaminated by a kind of rabies, they become 'SF'…).

As for Elves… depends: Timurilank's Melnibonean Elves link are merely an old, haughty, subspecies of Homo sapiens, they don't pose any special difficulty. And converted minis could be so cute TMP link!

PS/ as Lacepulp, what about playing this one: YouTube link in the 18th C.? Some stories are rather eternal…

As for war mammoths an 'obsolete weapon system' useless by the 18th C., it would depend on what kind of opponents the Alcovians are currently facing.
Wagon laagers / gulay gorod were sitting ducks for 'modern' artillery since the late Renaissance, but still proved their worth late in the 19th C. against 'primitive' enemies in overwhelming number but lacking artillery.
Raiders -Tartars, Khirgizs, Kalmucks… or those irregulars in Ottoman service (the name escapes me for the moment) who fought 'for Faith and loot' belong to this type.
Thus, war mammoths would not be inefficient against them, so much the more as, like elephants, they certainly would frighten horses unaccustomed to them and disorder hostile mounted troops.

PS: I know of gorgeous woolly rhinos in 28mm link
Such certainly exist also in 15mm, but -while not a far bigger biological "What-if?"- some may find them 'too much', since they'd not be visually be similar to an 'acknowledged' 18th C. warbeast?

Mostly my Imagination Armies exist for me to fight SYW battles "historically" without being too constricted by actual context. However, I have a plan on the books to build a fantastical, if not exactly fantasy, Turkish army; one owing more of its style to Xerxes from 300 than to any Sultan.

Lentulus,

Sounds almost like some sort of Munchausen style Turkish force. Not specifically inspired by the stories but full of craziness consistent with such.

As an alternative to a war mammoth, I have considered a more conventional war elephant with long draping armor that would insulate it against the cold and provide armor against all attack but gunfire. Of course that is if I do it at all.

-Eli

@ Lentulus: full of eye-candy potential! War elephants and zamberek camels from 'Indian' ranges would not be out of place, the elephants looked fittingly 'exotic' in Terry Gilliam's movie. 'Turqueries' were all the fashion, and most Europeans mixed up merrily Egyptian, Turk, Persian and Indian in the enturbanné collective image. Keep up informed when your project materialize, please!

@ Eli: keep the war mammoth, it would be far more 'in character' for Alcovia!

Stay tuned…

Relevant thread:
TMP link

BTW folks, just so you all know, the alcovian War Mammoth was a flight of fancy I entertained while brainstorming my imagi-nation. I had already tossed it to the "fun but not quite" pile before this discussion. It would look cool but is a bit over the top.

I have no abandoned the ideas of jumboes in Alcovian service though…

-Eli

Really *too bad*
'Bald' jumboes simply don't look right among fur hats….

Wait wait wait…

If I can get ahold of one or two, I'll show proof of concept.

I'm just starting out here. You folks are all old pros.

-Eli

How about this? There is a fuzzy hat in there