"Do you think this "racist" or derogatory?" Topic

also note that, as usual, some here insist that any attempt to be polite is some sort of bowing down to the shiboleth of political correctness; I put that down to their being ignorant crackers.

What? :)

Mate – I may well be iggorant but I'm no cracker…Got a bit emotional trying to to recover a body from the water that had been in too long when bits started to fall through the net, but I never cracked…

I'd compare the use of peon the same as using slave or serf not a racist word.

As an employee of others, I've often used the word Peon to describe my stature in the organization. I view it as the bottom rung of the workplace ladder. Right now, after my recent promotion, I'm a PFC – Peon First Class.

The original Warcraft game in the 90s (and the second release) used the term 'peon' for the workers harvesting resources (Ah… memories of a great game). I'd always just assumed it meant labourer but then perhaps I was just blissully ignorant.

Just on a spelling note, the Spanish word for peasant is 'campesino', not 'campasino.'

El Campesino was a Republican commander in the SCW.

Personally I prefer campesino to peon.

" were conquerors and civilizers who subdued the hostile natives and killed off the dangerous animals so lesser peoples could immigrate. "

So which character class would that be then?

I put that down to their being ignorant crackers.

What? :)

I would say that was overly polite of you MJS.

What is the origin of the word Cracker? Where do they come from, and what are their defining features? Are they the ones the Peons look down on?

Pat

'Cracker' is a word for poor southern whites that might derive from cracking dried corn for food, or from the noise of whips used to drive cattle – origins are apparently unclear. In central Florida it has a fairly positive tone as a sort of 'heritage identity'. I'm pretty sure you can buy T shirts, postcards and everything else.

In modern times it's used as an insult by African-Americans for white people in general and poor southern whites in particular. It's akin to 'honky'. The first time I heard it used in that way was c. 1984 when one of my collection of juvenile delinquents called another one a 'cracker' as part of a cheerful bout of good natured banter which had to be broken up by the staff before blood was spilled.

So, it's another example of words that might have harmless or positive connections (the Florida cracker) or serve purely as an insult.

Inspector Yapp: Wow. When you play FoW, what side do you chose?

This thread is failing to deliver .

Maybe Peons are seen as Mexican cannon fodder on any war games table no matter what you change their name to, people will always refer to them as peons or just cannon fodder.

Be as PC and tree hugging as you like everyone knows they are Peons or cannon fodder. If it looks like a Peon etc etc ……….

ooh maybe Elite Peons or Guard Peons might help :)

And with Agincourt's trenchant analysis, I believe this thread is closed.

Instead of calling a spade a manual earthmoving device, how about calling it a spade?

As my bumper sticker says, "I would rather be historically accurate than politically correct."

Do you really think people will run away in droves from the rules for that one term? They're far more likely to hit the exits if the rules are bad. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Think of it as an opportunity to educate in the designer's notes.

In the UK, a cracker is a term used to describe an attractive young lady – 'She's a cracker'.

I live in a community that is about 1/3 black, 1/3 white and 1/3 Hispanic. In the 20+ years I have been here the only thing that has set anyone off is when you refer to a Puerto Rician as a Mexican! Wow! Look out for that one.

But as a man that is part Shawnee, part Cherokee, part Jewish, part Irish and related to Jack Elam call them what you want. Any PC types can just stay home!

sky

When I've heard people referred to as 'peons' nowadays it's usually a stand-in for 'ignorant' or 'idiot'.

And when I refer to someone as "a peasant" I'm suggesting they are ignorant and oafish, so its no improvement.

Every term for the bottom of the pile (slave, peasant, peon, yokel, villein, servant) builds up a layer of negativity. Peon is no worse than the alternatives, and is at least historical.

Instead of calling a spade a manual earthmoving device, how about calling it a spade?

As my bumper sticker says, "I would rather be historically accurate than politically correct."

Do you really think people will run away in droves from the rules for that one term? They're far more likely to hit the exits if the rules are bad. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Think of it as an opportunity to educate in the designer's notes.

Aaah! The heady refreshing scent of common sense – so rare these days alas!

While not dealing with the Mexican aspect of the term, in Southern Brasil, the term Peon (Peao) is used by the Gauchos. They refer to each other by that word. To them it is a proud term of a working man who has had nothing handed to him. Everything he has, he worked hard for and has earned. Again, this is in Brasil and the Gaucho is a different type of individual then what would be found in Mexico.

Jefitrout is getting close to the issue. If one wants historical accuracy, one needs to do real research. Its clear from many of the responses here that we all have our prejudices regarding what is "offensive". I would look to Mexicans and Mexico for the answer. Histories from the late 19th/early 20th cebntury, historical fiction by Mexican and/or Chicano writers, and Mexican websites (although google translator may muddy things up). Optimally, you want to name your group what they called themselves in the time period in which you set your game.

Also please don't forget that Foundry has/had at one time a pack of "Mexican Peons"…basically Mexican peasant farmers…

I don't perceive racial discrimination as much as class bigotry in the term "peon". If you are trying to populate the downtrodden social level of your game, I think it's applicable. The farmers in "The Magnificent Seven" might be classified as peons, sweating for their existence and being oppressed by whoever has better weaponry. Then again, as in the film, give them a little training, a little morale-boosting, some up-to-date firearms, and you might be surprised if you come to collect your "taxes".

I would look to Mexicans and Mexico for the answer.

We already got that. mex10mm is Mexican, from Mexico even. He gave a useful and considered opinion. People continued to posture and fulminate.

As you get further into your second year of TMP, you'll learn that this is How Things Are Done.

My contribution, Andy Griffith pitching for Ritz:

YouTube link

'Peon' – 'Pawn' – 'Peasant'??? Any linguistics historians out there?

Straying from the theme of your interesting thread, I was thinking of buying a copy of Gutshot, which my group plays, but let me ask a question: does the fact that you are working on new character classes mean we will soon be seeing a new edition of Gutshot?

Curiousity: I realize you are concentrating on the agricultural class in what is now Mexico, but aren't these folks socially, culturally, even linguistically pretty much the same as the Hispanic agrarian types of southern Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, California and Arizona, who became "Americans" as a result of the boundary changes in the wake of the Mexican-American War?

Grelber

MJS. My grandmother had two word for "political correctness". She called it "good manners".

I've always thought you could tell a racist. He tells you he "ain't politically correct".

My two cents about the theme:

The dicctionary of the "Real Academia Española" signed as:

PEON: Laborer working on material things that do not require special skills or art. The peon can change that status when transformed into: bracero, roadman, cattle, etc

CAMPESINO: Person who develops field tasks or those which are proper of the field or those who tend to live and work the land. The campesino may be rural or village.

Amicalement
Armand

Curiously in my country to be a "Peon" is to had one of the task most repected because they are the backbone of the system of the ranchs work.
They are the direct descendants of the "gauchos" those kind of Cowboys of our country.
The Peones are quite similar to the "hands" of USA.
To be a "peon" is to be a man who had many skills with horses, cattle, ranch, wild animals, etc.

Of course as the dicctionary said there are another "peons" as for the construcction of buildings, roads, etc but they had not the same status as the Peon of the field.

To be a "campesino" is quite an insult here.
It's used to point ignorant people who had not any culture.

Those who worked the land are "agricultores" (farmers).

Amicalement
Armand

It was just a few years ago I found out that Oriental is improper and Asian is the acceptable term.

If you are going to erase the word Peon from catalogues and rules then we will have to start removing the word Serf from all our Medieval history books in the UK. However because this is a. historical fact and b. an integral part of our historical heritage without which the whole meaning of our Feudal system would not make any sense, I believe that History is History and should be left alone. Therefore if these characters were referred to as Peons during the period in question by the rest of the then populace,then they should be referred to as such in whatever publication, be it rules or catalogue, that features or refers to them during said period.

Volleyfire makes a good point. If it is historical and used in a historical context only, then it is not offensive to modern people. For example, Mark Twain uses lots of modern "bad" words, but anyone who has an interest in literature would understand it is context related. Frankly, someone who wouldn't know the difference doesn't have the education of mental ability to likely be a person who would play the game to begin with.

Tango01: You raise some interesting points. Are you from Spain (didn't see your country listed on your profile)? In the oil & gas industry, I have work with a lot of people from South America, and they have a very different culture from Mexican or Mexican-American.

Mike, I'm not spanish, I'm Argentine and I lived in Buenos Aires.
Having the luck to travel a lot, I agree with you about the different culture from Central America and South America.
We had the same idiom and the same religion (mostly), but our origin was quite different.
Mexico and the central spanish speaker countries grow up with and strong native culture.
Some of South American countries had not this culture.
Specially my own country were we are almost descendant of Europeans. At least, the great majority.
I hear a good joke on Mexico once time.
They said that some latin American countries citizens descent from great civilizations as the Mayas or the Incas.
But others, like the Argentines descent from great ships.(smile).
But the essence is the same… with other taste.
At the end of the tale, we are all human beings and brothers.

Amicalement
Armand

Armand: I've had the pleasure of working with many Argentines over the years. Thanks for your input into this discussion.

Grelber: The honest truth is, yes we are working on a second edition of Gutshot, and have been since the day the first edition was released in 2005. But, we're more focused now on releasing our Cowboys vs. Zombies material, so it is extremely unlikely that the new Gutshot Edition will be out in 2012. The Peons (and yes, we're keeping the name for this particular group of farm workers, but will also be adding campesinos as another group -- so this discussion was quite productive for us) will be tested soon and then put out to help people run Spaghetti Western type games.

Also, we'd like to have this material ready for when we finally release the Adobe Building Collections for Arnica Real Estate.

Mike Mitchell
Hawgleg Publishing

"Peonage" was written into Mexican law at the same time "slavery" was abolished.

As such a peon was a legal definition as much as anything else.

Have no idea if the term is offensive to some to it is a legitimate term under the laws of the time…

Although for that matter so is "Octaroon" and other words describing various degrees of African ancestry so perhaps Mexican law of the period is just offensive : )

Proud you consider my two cents here Mike.
Thanks.

Amicalement
Armand

M C LeSingeDew: Thanks for that info; I'm going to look that up.

Armand: You're welcome, and thanks to you and everyone who helped with this discussion.

You know I made a comment earilier but I have given this more thought. I do not think this question should even have been asked. As someone implied eariler there are other periods where names might be considered non PC but the Old West is probably one of the worst. So if you start down this road then do not use any of the following:

Drunk: This is an illness and not to be made light of. In fact take your xacto and remove all bottles as a gamer might be senitive to this.

Indian: Now Native America with the proper tribal indications. Also the NA figures should not hold weapons but be cast in positions that indicate they are being victimized and buthered by white men.

Savage: See Indian

Whore / Prostitute: Free Spirit or Liberated female. No form of judgemental verbage should be used. Sexual addiction is a serious matter.

Preachers / Priest: These offensive figures should never be mentioned in the rules and any figures painted can only be placed inside (glued in) their church building. They should be legally barred from any public property.

lawyers: Should always follow the doctor figure around in order to represent any victum.

Photographer figure: should follow any law officer around to get evidence of brutality.

Lawman: Any lawman firing his weapon should immediately be relieved of his duties and removed from the game.

We can also elimate words like gandy dancer, china man and other occupational stereotypes.

Once we are finished here there are lots of other corrections to be made!

Have I made my point? Correct history not history corrected!!

sky

LotOW uses 'peon' in the bandido posse list, in the context of vulnerable cannon-fodder. It also uses 'berdache' which I feel IS inappropriate as it derives from a Turkish word for a male prisoner kept as a sex-slave which has nothing to do with the Native American 'two-spirits' culture(s)

However, 'berdache' was the term used by 19th century English speakers to describe a trans-gendered Indian man. It was too dirty a concept to even say it in English, so they borrowed a French word.

Not aimed at anyone in particular but while we are on the subject…Western gubfights are generally affairs of extrajudicial murder and are by nature, un -Pc and potentially offensive.

Bring in a historical figure like Bill "N**** Killer" Longley and any number of post war hardcases and all bets are off.

To avoid unpleasent terms it is better to not define characters by ethnicity and stick to skills. A Mexican farmer is less likely to have a gun than an Anglo farmer, but both are like to be equally ineffective in a fight unless thy are ex military.

skyking: I think any question that generates almost 100 responses is definitely worth asking.

And the responses, for the most part, were very informative and thought-provoking. And I thought your "redefinitions" of Prostitutes was HILARIOUS.

I can't agree with the poster who equated 'good manners' with 'political correctness' – there is virtually no link between the two. I don't see how it is 'good manners' to say 'police officer' but 'bad manners' to say 'police woman'. She is a woman who serves in the police – neither is anything to be ashamed of, or to avoid mentioning. Equally, I fail to see how it is 'good manners' to call a black board a 'chalk board'. It is a board and it is black – simple as that: manners don't come into it. Is a black car still a black car? Or has that been re-named recently too?

While I realise certain terms that might have been used by another generation are no longer acceptable, I have no idea why refering to someone as 'Oriental' is suddenly considered 'bad manners' or why instead calling them 'Asian' is currently OK – these are geographical terms, not rude or racist ones. I also have no doubt that, in a few more years, 'Asian' will have falled out of favour too, and the latest fashion will be another word.

Who worries about such things? I am a keen cricket fan, and recently the term 'white-wash' (ie. a clean sweep of victories in a series – AKA a proper thrashing) has become a little frowned upon. I remember England being 4-0 up in a 5 match series against the West Indies, and – during the 5th match – the cameraman focused in on a West Indian supporter who was holding up a sign that said: 'C'mon West Indies – I'm too black to be white-washed'.

If only everyone shared his persepective on the nonsense of PC / thought control. There is a big difference between being deliberately rude / offensive and ignoring the current obsession with political correctness.

With the simple purpose of clarifying a little the issue about the "peon", here are a old paint interesting to see.

This paint is named:
"Peon of the XI° Century, taken form the codices of Ferdinand I°. It's a warrior figure which seems to throw stones by hand, however, by a thorough analysis of the shells they can be identified as some clay containers that could contain flammable liquids"

Another one here.

"Peon from the XI° (1037-1065)

From this page.
link

Amicalement
Armand

Okay, Beaners with Guns. Take it or leave it.

BullDog69: You seem to be a bit off base with your examples, which are mostly grounded in the present, not the historical situations we are discussing here.

I have a specific world-view that developed out of my living in various parts of Texas (and a brief stay in New Mexico). Inviting discussion has been both informative and helpful in assisting us in making up our minds.

But to directly address your points, there is a difference between politeness and political correctness. Politeness is born from good manners and seeks to make people comfortable. Political Correctness is born from a desire to shape (or reshape) society by using words in a specific manner to affect perceptions.

We are interested in making our customers (and potential customers) comfortable reading our book so that they can enjoy it without getting hung up on specific words or descriptions. That being said, we have not erred too far to the left by changing everything that some people might find objectionable: we routinely use words like Indian, Soiled Dove, Prostitute, Sodbuster, and other words that capture the flavor of the era. Inflammatory words like Injun, the N-word, Chink, gook, and other racial slurs are not allowed, nor do they have any place in a rule book that has a PG-13 rating and is suitable for kids and adults.

Seeing that my linage is from the farmlands I am getting worked up over "sod-buster"!!! We prefer Agricultural Recycling Technicians!

sky

SkyKing: And I prefer "Heroically Scaled Miniature Gaming Enthusiast" to what I'm typically called.

Didn't read through all 100 posts so apologies of someone pointed this out already, but I believe the Spanish word is 'peone'. Peon. Short and simple. Why not? It really isn't used to describe the race of the person, rather a social class.

Sundance: We will be using the Peon as a particular "class" of Mexican farmers.

Thanks for chiming in on a subject that seems unwilling to die!

Gotcha. It's been a long time since I had Mexican history or I could fill you in on the whole social structure c. turn-of-the-century. Good luck with it!

EDIT: Reading back through the posts, what mex10mm said jives with what I remember from class so I guess I had it right. It's always good to check things out.