"Do you think this "racist" or derogatory?" Topic

Been thinking of adding a new NPC type to Gutshot, but I'm concerned about the name.

When dealing with poor, uneducated but armed and untrained Mexican farmers, what do you think of the word "Peon?"

I considered using a more friendly "Campasinos," which means peasant farmer, but honestly, it lacks flavor and I doubt anyone would know what it meant (let alone how to pronounce it).

So, what do you think of Peons? Offensive, or should it get the go-ahead?

BTW: When working on the initial draft of Gutshot, we contacted some Native Americans through a discussion board and -- after a bit of discussion -- decided that "Indian" is okay because it conveys the correct feeling in a historical context such as the Wild West. But we decided that "Injun" want not a word we wanted to use in our books.

I know what a peon is, but would have been thrown by the term campasino.

Campasino sounds like another word for a type of shellfish, frequently found in areas where camerones (shrimp) are found. Sounds like a one word term for clams casino, but that's just me.

It might be offensive to a Mexican. I don't know any Mexicans.

I'd never heard of this word being applied to a specific racial group, but Wikipedia claims it's specific to "Spanish-Americans."

But I really doubt the word origins suggested by one online source: "Someone with the lowest social standing, such that commoners may pee on them with impunity"

Not racist. Derogatory depending on the context, maybe. The term means serf. The old Hollywood movie about Zapata had the main character use the term "peones" when talking about the common people. Peonage is another term for serfdom.

Part of my ancestry originated in Mexico, but I'm not offended by the word "peon". I can see, though, where it might bother others. Like some here have already mentioned, it would depend on the context it was used.

Ah, for the days before PC.

Peon is a legit word. You could also refer to them as rustics, or rustico. Another option is hombre de campo (man of the field), or maybe just hombres. That said, the peon class was pretty non-violent and unarmed. Armed Mexicans of the peon class would likely be bandits or revolutionaries.

Not sure about "peon", but the other word is spelled "campesino" not "campasino" and it isn't really obscure, flavorless, or hard to pronounce – and I live in New York, not down south. If anything, I'd call it a better choice than the more generic "peon" – if you spell it correctly.

Campasino: A nice little tourist town just north of Naples.

BTW: When working on the initial draft of Gutshot, we contacted some Native Americans through a discussion board and -- after a bit of discussion -- decided that "Indian" is okay because it conveys the correct feeling in a historical context such as the Wild West. But we decided that "Injun" want not a word we wanted to use in our books.

And they were ok with the idea of a Western game overall, especially considering the "historical context" of how Indians were treated and all? I wouldn't want to hurt their feelings by playing a game they didn't approve of. Sigh. The wonders of political correctness.

Certainly not "raciest":

As it has no race connotation.

Derogatory? yes, just like slave or surf. You would not like anyone to call you by that term, But I do not think anyone is taken-aback when a game system talks about slaves in Rome or serfs in Russia. I think "underling" and "wrif-wraf" are fine terms for a game as well.

Why sweat it when you can simply use 'armed farmers/townsfolk' instead?

Nope and nope.
But then again, I don't get offended by fat, balding, gamer. Pollock jokes either.
I'm tough to offend.

Peon was used mainly by the upper classes to describe the lower classes that worked their haciendas. I find it hard to imagine one of the working class voluntarily referring to hinmself as a "peon". It has a derogatory connotation in Mexico. Therefore, campesino should be the way to go0, as that is what they would call themselves. and despite the many cracks here, I applaud your efforts to at least check into this before you move forward. After all, you also want hispanics to buy your game.

peon is the Spanish word for peasant or surf.

Id go with campesino. peon conjures images of medieval serfs.

Oh yeah- not all rural Mexicans were peones. So, campesino encompasses the whole of rural people.

What's the term that would have been used for those people at that time? That's the one I'm likely to favor in-game. Same as I'd want to use 'Krauts' and 'Japs' if I were playing U.S. forces in a WWII game.

I like to play games covering Early America through the civil war; that doesn't mean its appropriate to refer to black folks as "niggers" because it's period appropriate.

OMG he used the N word !

He gonna die in a massive flame bonfire lol

A popular upper class pastime has always been surf riding :)

Ah yes, but who is using the word (in the 19th century) to describe who? Maybe a little googling is in order.

Thanks for the feedback. You should think of my use of the word "Peon" as a Character Class (in D&D terms). We already have these (to name just a few): Bounty Hunter, Deputy, Gambler, Marshal, Outlaw, Owlhoot, Sheriff, Townsfolk, etc. (to name a few).

McKinstry: These are specifically Mexican townsfolk of a certain type. We already have a generic Townsfolk Character Type. Peons would have different Specialties/Skills/Restrictions that Townsfolk.

Chief Lackey Rich & Pan Merek: I wrote that word from memory, hence the misspelling of Campesinos. And I'm afraid I have to mildly disagree with the Cheif about it not being obscure. I've lived in Texas my whole life and have never heard anyone use it outside of a classroom (and my kinfolk farmed cotton in the Rio Grande valley, just spitting distance from Mexico). I also asked some people down here and only the historians knew the word. So, Campesinos probably won't cut it for this usage.

Pan: I think your comment about the upper classes using the name is a good observation, and that probably makes it even a better fit for the particular usage we have in mind. And thanks for understanding. We do want Hispanics to buy the game, and we don't want to go out of our way to bug them.

RavenscraftCybernetics: The word "Peon" makes you think medieval serfs? Does anyone else get this connotation? When I hear the word, I picture the extras in Spaghetti Westerns, the guys who wear the white outfits and sombreros. I don't get any medieval imagery at all… is the strong Spanish/Mexican imagery just me, then?

Thanks again for giving us stuff to think about.

"Nope. But calling slaves "slaves" or ones who escaped as freed men or former slaves in this context is a statement of fact, not a derogatory term."

I agree.

Peon, at least in Mexico is not "racially derogatory" it is a level in a work organization/herearchy.
Even today the workers in the lowest level at the construction industry are still called "peones".
The word "campesino" (farmer)is more related to the agricultural work. The lowest level in agricultural work herarchy is no longer a "peon" but a "jornalero".
Yet in pre-revolutionary Mexico many poor farmers(campesinos) were part of an "Hacienda" organisation and were called "peones" by the higher working herearchies.
Think of it like this: Pre-revolutionary "peones" were more like medieval peasants, with no land and working for their "Patron" or local lord.
Pre-revolutionary "campesinos" were more free and in some cases owned a small piece of land to work.
This labor distinctions/levels were regardless of "race"; but as you can guess, the native mexicans (derogatory called "Indios") were must likelly to fall into semi-medieval servitude and end as land-less peones".
Hope this helps.

Likewise, here in Spain a "peon" is a recognised class of manual worker. Could be rural in agriculture but more likely to be any unskilled worker in the building trade. If you are employed as a "Peon" to fetch and carry for a skilled worker: Plasterer, Bricklayer etc it says "Peon" as your grade on your work contract.

No stigma to it at all.

I'm not offended, but I'm not one, either.

Yet.

After all, you also want hispanics to buy your game.

What were they calling other nationalities at the time?

As a Character Class (a la D&D) I think "peon" would be a very limited class option in a Wild West Setting, just as "peasant" would be in a Medieval setting.
A peon would own almost nothing, even the farming tools he used were owned by the "hacendado", perhaps some of them might own small animals as chiken, pigs or goats but little more.
Horses (even burros) and firearms would be just out of the reach for a "peon", must "peones" were so poor they owed their small huts or "jacales" th the rich "hacendado" making then practically endentured to the landowners unable to move freelly from a town to another or cross from an "hacienda" to another rich "hacendado" land; so I do not see how being a "peon" in a RPG would be interesting at all.
"Vaquero", the literal equivalent to "cowboy" would be more interesting, Zapata, Villa, Orozco and many other revolutionaries came from this more free more adventurous social class, many were "bandidos" before they were revolutionaries and could buy horses, firearms and move freelly from one place in Mexico to another.
Hope this helps.

Call 'em farmers and no one will even get offended. Though as one commentator stated peon means surf, we could replace the term peon with "surfer dude".

I like campesino. It rolls smoothly off the tongue where peon is harsh.

OK. First, one might think why Texans called poor Mexicans "peons". Although I'm sure that not all Texan gringos are racist, the tendency to use casually racist terminology in the US increases as one goes farther back in history. Also, if the game milieu is in the SW US, I don't think peonage existed here. Lastly, I would agree that in Mexico the term is not racially derogatory, but it is classist. In the US, its use does have racial connotations. I urge you to do some research beyond us here at TMP.

When I've heard people referred to as 'peons' nowadays it's usually a stand-in for 'ignorant' or 'idiot'.

I don't know in US, but in Spain, as RobH has already said, "peon" is just a word used to describe a non-specialist manual labourer, usually in construction but also in agricultural jobs. Actually, in some places the salary of those labourers is still called "peonadas". It's sometimes used as synonimous of "jornalero". It has not any derogatory meaning.

Like other I always thought a peon was a lower class worker who had no political power.

As a Gutshot player and GM, I like the term 'campesino' for the type you've described. It's kind of catchy. (And who says you can't write your own definition for what 'campesino' represents.) The suggestion for the use of 'hombre' wasn't too bad either.

The term 'peon' just doesn't sound right.

Whatever you do, don't use the term 'Mexican Peon', as it sounds like a ing contest after a bottle of tequila.

-David G.
dglennjr@yahoo.com

I use TRWNN and we just called them farmers or vaquero I think the word peon is a bit derogatory anymore, but then I don't like the word gringo either which is more often as not used as a pejorative.

mex10mm: This is an NPC "class" which is intended to be little more than cannon fodder (hopefully, interesting cannon fodder, but fodder, nonetheless). Vaquero, Bandito, and other Mexican themed Character Types will also be represented, and they are quite cool.

dglennjr: I just don't know a single person who uses the word "campesino" outside of a classroom… Not one. And I lived in El Paso and the upper Rio Grande Valley for many years (in fact, I was just there about a week ago).

PanM: This is just one aspect of our research. And we're not limiting the gaming region to the US. I fully expect many games to be set in Mexico itself.

BTW: "Farmer" is too generic; we need something specific to Mexico (we already have a Sodbuster, which is a homesteader/farmer). We'd like to see the Mexican equivalent that has different skills and interests.

Thanks again guys -- lots to think about.

Ohh…. I See; Ok as a NPC class "peon" can work. : )
And I say, go for it, very few people this side of the border would be ofended by the word "peon" used in a historic context.

Oh- and as with Ameerican-English and English-English, Spanish-Spanish and Mexican-Spanish have many subtle and not so subtle differences.

As a Brit, I think it's fair to say that, in the context of the 19th Century, I tend to think of 5 classes of Mexicans, basically army officers, soldiers, patrones, bandits and peons. At a pinch, aarmy officers and patrones could be classed the same, and soldiers could be classed as armes peons.

I see nothing wrong with it. The term has grown beyond its original origins. It's been used in video games and popular culture and is considered, by most, as a rather innocent term to describe somebody of lower working station.

-Eli

When I was a kid they called me a spick. I wasn't too happy. :( Don't use that on one. Peon sounds good to me.

It's my job title at work.

Peons is more than acceptable, it refers more to class than race.

BTW – am impressed at your politeness in making an effort to reach out to the Native American Indian community. I'm one of the least politically correct individuals out there, but I'm a stickler for politeness and that was an act that spoke of decent manners. Too many people confuse politeness and good manners with being PC.

Any idea what's the best way to buy Gutshot in Australia?

Give me a break.

PC crap.

PC crap indeed. A campesino sounds more like a gambling joint for the fairy folk. Whatever you call something these days is liable to upset some "community" or another….

Well, that settles it then. From now on, we refer to everybody by the terms made popular by whoever didn't like our original immigrant forebears.

Look all I know about Mexico is I like the chow…

But I work in a hyper PC environment after 20 plus years in the military, so half my working day is taken up in apologising, so take it from one who knows…

There are people who have a craving, a need, to be offended, and will find offense anywhere, anyhow, particularly if it furthers their career..

So my advice is, don't worry about it, if your ruleset comes to their attention, they will find something offensive in it, its like a professional challenge to them….

I for one appreciate your efforts to find a word that isn't offensive, even if it's not entirely clear what might or might not be offensive!

I also note that, as usual, some here insist that any attempt to be polite is some sort of bowing down to the shiboleth of political correctness; I put that down to their being ignorant crackers.

What? :)

Pan Marek,
Your ancestors may have been immigrants but mine were conquerors and civilizers who subdued the hostile natives and killed off the dangerous animals so lesser peoples could immigrate.

I don't think "peon" is particularly offensive, but if you are concerned enough to ask, perhaps you feel uncomfortable with it yourself. Why not just refer to them as "peasant farmers," which is a bit more specific and colorful.

I also like "campasinos." It's got a lot of flavor. And if your game partners ask what it means, tell them, and they'll have learned something new.