| CorSecEng | 20 Nov 2011 4:18 p.m. PST |
So I was watching Transformers 3 again. Gotta love giant robot violence. It got me thinking about a specialized anti-mech unit. Maybe a squad of 6 – 8 guys. Each has a special job for the take down. Like a few guys with assault rifles that have grapple launchers attached. Several with larger caliber then normal weapons. The guys in the movie are all carrying clips that are at least twice the size they should be. Add a few guys with smaller shotgun weapons and demo charges. Maybe give them a small booster jet pack to jump up and take out the pilot or plant the charges. Would make a cool combat attachment for different forces. You'd have to invent some specialized rules for Anti-Mech infantry close assaulting a mech. Battletech has rules for this but if I remember right they are rather simple. |
| clkeagle | 20 Nov 2011 4:26 p.m. PST |
I've been thinking about making a Mech Warfare supplement to FUBAR. With all of the 15mm mecha that are out now (Rebel HAMRs, Critical Mass ARC Walkers, Khurasan L-HAC and Dictator, Ravenstar's awesome new mechs, etc) or in the future (the Gruntz Imperator mech soon, eventually seeing Mark Mondragon's Leviathans), it like there's enough to play 15mm mech-centric games. It might be fun to include anti-mech infantry squads and mech-destroyer tanks in such a game. Mind if I swipe your ideas? -Chris K. |
| McWong73 | 20 Nov 2011 4:44 p.m. PST |
Blow a leg joint, that's probably the quickest way to take one down. I think grapples would look cool, but that isn't a job you'd volunteer for! |
| ravachol | 20 Nov 2011 5:04 p.m. PST |
from memory , Battletech anti-mech infantry used steel or titanium cables aswell as explosive charges among the various equipments at disposale . the grapples are quite a good one aswell , makes me think of Empire strikes back and luke taking down the four leggued assault transport on hoth . also comes to mind the rouge-trader equiment like saw-blades and the laz-cutter to cut walls and such . |
| infojunky | 20 Nov 2011 5:14 p.m. PST |
Humm… Anti-Mech infantry….. Then I start thinking what would I do…. A lot of anti-infantry and area denial would work just fine against a mech. Mines become even more viable with the increased ground pressure. Tripwires become amusing. Then there are things like Mech scale Punji Pits. As for weapons, chemical rounds with binding gels for mobility reduction, then there is your regular Anti-Armor weapons/munitions. But al lot of these also depend on what size Mecha you are talking about. When I think Mecha I am thinking in the Landmate/Votoms/Dreadnought sizes i.e. 3 to 5 meters. Mecha to me are transitional between infantry and armor. |
| Wolfprophet | 20 Nov 2011 5:17 p.m. PST |
Anti-hard target weapons are all you need. Mechs are just walking versions of all the vehicles we know and love. They fill the same roles with better mobility and often more weapon versatility. What is a CAT, but a walking, autonomous version of….well…. An armoured car? If you're talking about larger mechs, you'd just need to up-scale the weapons abit. Particularly rockets and missiles. They'd need a larger warhead to be significantly capable of a one-shot kill or an operator kill. |
| PJ Parent | 20 Nov 2011 5:28 p.m. PST |
It would also depend on what you want to do – do you want to bring the mech back to use or use parts then you can't cook it off like hitting a tank. Do mech pilots have special status? |
| ravachol | 20 Nov 2011 5:30 p.m. PST |
I was more thinking on a battle tech scale , that is a skycreeper tall warmachine , be it with a single pilot ( like most concepts do , with the pilot linked body and mind -or even soul in some cases – to his vehicle ) or full crew at various place inside ( à la WH40K- epic ) . but otherwise it's effectively a leggued version of vehicles . On manga-style mechs you can add to it that may also be a walking version of aircrafts , as they do flight and often enjoy space flight abilities aswell . Otherweaponery that comes to mind is electromagnetics ones to destroy onboard electronics , and the way too scarcely gamed ECM or computer highjackings of control systems . |
| 28mmMan | 20 Nov 2011 5:51 p.m. PST |
A couple guys throwing 110cal rounds down range…leg joints, socket points, etc. would cause all kinds of grief…
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| CorSecEng | 20 Nov 2011 5:57 p.m. PST |
I think its Infinity that has units that can hack into Mechs and freeze them. That of course brings up the next idea… Combat Hackers. Ok back to Anti-Mech before I get to side tracked. I'm thinking an Anti-Mech unit is trained to attack anything from power armor to a massive Assault Mech that can walk through buildings if it wants to. They are essentially a vehicle and some of the same tactics would be used. A large shoulder fired rocket would probably drop one. The other options are a bit more interesting and thats where I think the Anti-Mech unit comes in. I for one am not going to charge a massive several ton walking monster and pray it doesn't step on me. Here is what I'd like to see. A 6 man team that has little baby jump packs or better yet power assisted legs (might be hard in 15mm) They jump up onto the mech and take the pilot or plant explosives. So magnetic shaped charged. Mix their weapons up with some of them having shotgun style weapons and others having some sorta large grenade launcher type weapon. Maybe even give them larger boots or add large flap to both sides. Make them look like they can magnetize to the mech once they make contact. I can also see an insurgent group whose entire purpose is to disable Mech/Tanks by killing the crew and leaving the tech behind. Best way to get new toys for a low tech guerrilla force. BTW Steal this idea. PLEASE! :) |
| Artraccoon | 20 Nov 2011 6:20 p.m. PST |
In the Gundam mangas I collect, there have been anti-Mobile Suit squads(Bandai made a 1/35 scale kit of a Federal team)in the stories. One story had a group of Zeon engineers conduct a last ditch defense using very large landmines fitted with timed fuses( much like certain WW2 German AT mines)and throwing them from two man VTOLS, and shoulder fired ATGMs. They also had the upper torso of a Zaku bolted upright on the trailer of mech transport truck and kitted out with a mech bazooka. They defended their position from a group of Federal GM mobile suits, and made a glorious mess of things. In the SF3D II wargame, it featured regular infantry, militia, and "AAR" teams…Anti-Armor Rifles, to kill the powersuit troops. It would not be hard to see specialized infantry teams, usually experienced or veteran, with specialised weapons( and field improv weapons) operatating much like their WW2 East Front counterparts. Green troops would never be used because they haven't learned to deal with the Mech equivalent of "Tank Shock". Some weapon options…
Landmines, with timed fuse option.
Anti-Armor "plantable" shaped charges, think Ostfront again.
Explosive charge cord, basically bigger Detcord.
ATGMs and specialized rocket launchers( ex: one that fires entangling detcord).
Anti-Armor Rifles, from .50 BMG to man-portable AccMag Rifles.
Auto Grenade launchers.
Acid based warheads and projectors( the Northover Projector and PIAT strike back with all new warheads!!). Paint rounds would be good too, to blind a mech.
Flamethowers and Thermobaric weapons( see current RPG-7 options for ideas). Also just imagine a powersuit supporting the infantry with a powersuit sized flamethower!!
Recoilless rifles, and if the enemy is prone to sending in Mech Rushes, consider using M388 projectiles!! So anyone want to earn their "Mech Destruction Badge"? |
| Ron W DuBray | 20 Nov 2011 6:51 p.m. PST |
RPGs big ones with EMP warheads….. |
| Privateer4hire | 20 Nov 2011 7:25 p.m. PST |
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| CorSecEng | 20 Nov 2011 7:31 p.m. PST |
haha next you'll be suggesting a speeader bike with a magnetic winch on the back :) |
| Zephyr1 | 20 Nov 2011 7:42 p.m. PST |
Naw, you'll want to use the King Kong Area Denial Launcher; Fires giant slippery banana peels. If a mech steps on that, it's going to fall down HARD…. (and it's also safe for the environment! ;-) |
| Caesar | 20 Nov 2011 7:51 p.m. PST |
Of course, the mechs will just have infantry around them to keep little pests away… |
| Artraccoon | 20 Nov 2011 8:36 p.m. PST |
Mechagrenadiers? Or just another use for the old name Panzergrenadiers. Kinda like the idea of Mech-riding powersuits, they would fit the need. |
| evilmike | 20 Nov 2011 8:55 p.m. PST |
Gentlemen. The answer is simple. Simply spray oil, foam, or any other lubricant all over the surface where said Mecha has to walk. Add ball bearings. Enjoy. In rural areas, instead of slippery goop, deploy hundreds of landmines. Sooner or later, you are bound to blow off a leg. |
| AVAMANGO | 20 Nov 2011 9:59 p.m. PST |
In Battletech a few of the more reknowned units have specialized infantry known for there anti mech tactics the 'Gray Death Legion' instantly spring to mind they have access to a wealth of equipment such as ECM jamming equipment, portable Hyper velocity cannons, Remote Controlled aerial drones, snipers with Gauss rifles, troops with EMP grenade launchers, Power armour with grappleing equipment, laser cutters and magnetic explosives……. |
| chromedog | 20 Nov 2011 10:05 p.m. PST |
@CorSecEng: Infinity hackers are capable of more than just immobilising enemy TAGs (battlesuits). They can "possess" them (take them over and run them as their own side's unit while they have orders left to do so) as well*.
They just can't do it to the alien voodootech of the Combine (possess, that is. They can immob them). *ordinarily, immobilising takes one hacking success roll.
Possession requires a second success immediately following it (so you can immobilise in ARO, but not possess in most cases). "Glue guns" are the other anti-mech defence. Adhesive launchers. They stick the TAG in place allowing your other units to hit it with anti-armour or explosive CCW attacks. |
| CorSecEng | 20 Nov 2011 10:16 p.m. PST |
Battletech had power armor that rode on the mechs. The clan Elementals could latch on to mechs that had special hand holds. An interesting tactic that was discussed at one of our games was to load an entire force of Dashers (fastest Mech in the game) with elementals and run around dropping them at the feet of other mechs. Dashers are fast but have no armor. Hard to hit and usually stay in the rear arc. I might have to try it some day. |
| Rhoderic III and counting | 20 Nov 2011 10:19 p.m. PST |
There's an 80's anime called Armor Hunter Mellowlink. It's set in the VOTOMS mecha universe but does an interesting twist on the mecha genre: The protagonist is not a mech pilot himself, but an infantryman who specializes in anti-mech warfare. His weapons consist of a very big anti-armour sniper rifle, a rocket-propelled spike gun type thing (for close combat), and lightweight mines. |
| Alex Reed | 20 Nov 2011 10:33 p.m. PST |
I'm going to have to think about this one, as I have to think about what I can and can't say due to contractual NDAs… 1: Anti-Mech squads will probably need to be a lot more than regular infantry, as there are many type of Mech that are just infantry that would be able to counter any Anti-Mech Infantry that weren't so equipped themselves. 2 Robots/Cyborgs: It is more likely that any anti-mech activities would be better carried out by dedicated robotic or drone systems. Robots for such work can be disguised as trees, rocks, Dogs, Wolves, Coyotes, Raccoons, bugs, swarms of bugs, and so on. 3 EMP: This is something that a great many future devices won't have to worry about. Aside from Fiber-Optics and Light-based circuits, there are also synthetic biological systems that are immune to EMP effects. 4: The idea of Anti-Mech Squads simply extrapolates CURRENT concepts of Warfare to the future without the consideration of the changes that will occur between now and then (Many people have this problem, even scientists, when they work with reductionistic models). 5: The very idea of Mecha as expressed here is also an extrapolation of current systems to the future and changing them to a humanoid or "Robotic" form. Many Japanese Anime, where the concept comes from having this problem as well. Full Metal Panic even mocks the Trope by just establishing Mecha as having been invented in the 1980s. The real life development of Robotic & Cybernetic Systems does not work to create "Walking Tanks." It works to create novel forms of warfighting equipment that have no modern equivalent. How many current Naval Vessels can swim like a fish (i.e. without any form of propeller or turbine)? How many airplanes fly like a bird? How many tanks can stand up and lie down on the battlefield? How many tanks are capable of being controlled via motion-capture? The development of mecha is a lot more than just making a tank that walks (to re-state this fact). It is about re-defining the combat elements used in a war. Considering that the move is AWAY from putting humans on the battlefield, it will only be very poor nations who have to resort to such methods. Odds are likely, as is currently the case with our military and our enemies, that any enemy will seek to avoid any direct confrontation with any type of mecha. Doing so might allow them to take out or damage ONE machine, but in doing so they would pretty much be committing suicide. It wouldn't be impossible to do (just as we have had insurgeants take out tanks), it would just be tremendously expensive and easier to run away and hide (and make traps that cause just enough damage to be expensive for the operation of the mecha). 6 Landmines: These are getting both more advanced and a lot easier to detect. The development of an operational smart-dust will make mines pretty much useless. Even sooner, mines will be hard pressed by bug-like robots that are programmed to seek out certain chemical signatures and then detonate when they have located one. This will allow for the clearing of minefields with relative ease, keeping expensive mecha or heavy infantry from having to worry about them. It is also possible that ballistic protections will improve to such a degree that a mecha won't be too terribly harmed by a mine unless the mine was just enormous (making it that much easier to detect). |
| Mako11 | 21 Nov 2011 2:07 a.m. PST |
Reminds me of District 9. A guy with a heavy sniper, or anti-tank rifle should be able to damage, or take down light mechs. Fire at the cables, control rods, hydraulic lines at the knee and ankle joints, or at vision slits/cameras. You'll probably need larger weapons for medium and heavy ones though, e.g. light anti-tank rockets. Same tactics as above apply, if they can't penetrate the carapace armor. |
| Alex Reed | 21 Nov 2011 4:16 a.m. PST |
That might be the case if Mechs are built using the traditionally fragile type of engineering that is used when building tanks and other machines. These machines have tight tolerances and fail easily with minor damage. Yet there is a lot of money going into newer and more robust mechanical systems that allow for brutal impacts that would normally destroy normal joints. As an example: YouTube link And an image of the robotic hand in the video above:
This hand (and now a whole arm – soon to be a whole robotic armature) is built using joints that are pliant, flexible, and not connected directly to actuators, but instead connected to actuators via an elastic synthetic tendon. Not only that, but it is FAR LIGHTER than any other robotic components to date, and it is capable of a far greater gripping strength per unit of force applied than any other robotic hand to date. Its structures are also made out of materials that are pretty resistant to damage. They are able to smash the hand with a hammer and have it remain operational. This is just one of the things I alluded to above. The makers of this hand (DLR – can't recall the full name – but the acronym is German for German Aerospace Center) have plans to cover it in a synthetic flesh as well, which will further insulate the hand from impacts and damage. In fact, there is no reason why this synthetic skin couldn't be made from woven carbon fibers, making it essentially bullet proof. Add a layer of Synthetic "fat" (or ballistic gel) underneath it and that makes damaging that joint even harder. Slamming it with a large caliber bullet would give it the equivalent of a temporary sprain at best. Now, there are advances in weapons technology that could present problems for this technology, but they are advancing much slower than are the materials technologies that makes things stronger and harder to damage (we have a lot more than the Military to thank for that). Science itself demands that we have ever more stronger materials in order to perform experiments that require far greater stresses than most weapons can create. There is a great debate as to whether the current lead by materials technology will ever be closed by weapons technologies. I tend to favor the Materials Technologies until such a time as we get higher energy sources that are portable and safe enough to use by people (fusion ISN'T the answer here, as the Solution to one of the Problems in Fusion is the Ultimate Materials Tech Problem: Solving the degradation from interstitial damage to crystalline structures by neutron radiation: i.e. the Wigner Effect, which can turn steel into styrofoam, and turn micro-thin graphene lattices – that take tons of force to puncture – into cotton candy). So we'd need some other solution to storing large amounts of energy, or creating large amounts of energy to get weapons systems capable of penetrating nanotech based materials technologies. For instance, if we could create graphene lattices that we as thick as the armor on a tank, you could shoot them point blank with a 16" gun and not even dent them. And such a lattice would be tens of thousands of times lighter than the current armor. And due to the fact that creating such graphene structures is just a production problem (we already know the theory behind it, we just don't happen to have a large enough pencil or piece of tape yet – that's a joke for anyone who knows about our current methods of producing graphene), the solution to that problem is likely to come a lot sooner than any energy solution, for which we don't yet even have the science done yet. Now, one thing WAS mentioned that would be GREAT for stopping such things: Goop….
Sticky Goop….
HEAVY Sticky Goop….
That hardens like a resin around the limbs and joints of a mecha. This is a real-world Less-Than-Lethal weapon system that the creators of Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex used in one episode of their TV series. It could be shot at the mecha by hundreds of little robots, piling up on the surface and around the joints until it formed a mass that not only slowed down the mecha with its mass, but prevented the mecha from moving or seeing (clogging sensory equipment). |
| CPT Jake | 21 Nov 2011 4:33 a.m. PST |
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| CmdrKiley | 21 Nov 2011 7:33 a.m. PST |
Speaking of hacking a mech, we've had a few cases playing Rezolution where a cyborg like a TADS or even a big stompy robot like the CSO Stomper Class III Warbot has gotten hacked and turned against it's user for a turn or two. Something like that has been able to turn the tables of a game. Turning a mech through hacking is pretty cinematic and game-wise fun. Probably more realistically just disabling it could still be pretty devastating. |
 Legion 4  | 21 Nov 2011 8:05 a.m. PST |
Anti-Armor units would be great for Mech killing … A Mech is a HUGE TARGET on legs … So Anti-Armor weapons, MBT's main gun, CAS, Gunships, FA, Naval Gunfire, Orbital assets, anything Laser guided(Like CPT Jake posted) … anything that can damage or destroy a leg … And close assaulting a 60 ft. Target would be a last resort. When you can use the plethora of (long)range weapons already mentioned. We played a lot of Epic in the past. Titans(Mechs) were a Priority Target … Within a few turns all Titans(Mechs) on either side were either buring hulks or so badly damage they were of minimal use. Just like with Air Superiority, we had to gain "Titan(Mech) Superiority" … The best way to do that was to use your Titans and everything else to destroy the enemie's Titan(s)… To remove the threat just like with gaining air superiority … |
| CorSecEng | 21 Nov 2011 9:36 a.m. PST |
In open field combat Mechs are probably secondary targets after the MBTs but enter the urban environment and things get interesting. I look for Mechs to be fire support and protection for infantry units. Medium sized mechs and power armor can get places that most tanks and APC will not fit. Your AT assets need to be protecting the main roads and responding the the tanks entering your area. An HMG down an alley is great protection against an infantry assault. The Mechs would just move forward and take out the HMG to open the way for their infantry support. Enter the Anti-mech teams. Pin their support infantry down with HMG fire and assault the mechs. I can see a commander sending 2 fire teams and an attached mech around to flank the AT positions when clearing a city. Or a single fireteam and a team of power armor. On the attack, you still have AFVs controlling the main streets and mechs protecting the alleys/side streets. Still need the Anti-Mech guys to drop the mech and clear the way for the infantry to flank the main force of AFVs. I don't ever see the Battletech world being a reality. Tanks are to versatile and a lot cheaper to make. I do see power armor and medium mechs adding to the combined arms approach. They kinda fill the gap that the hummers do now but with better armor and survivability. Oh and bigger guns! |
| AndrewGPaul | 21 Nov 2011 10:08 a.m. PST |
Looking at the pictures of the guy with the big rifle and the missile launcher truck, 'mechs in Battletech could shrug off hits from modern main battle tanks (it's in the background somewhere – the first Battlemech was field-tested against Merkavas and wiped the floor with them) and mount anti-missile systems. In other settings, 40K for example kits its giant robots out with energy shields which can shrug off super-heavy weapons fire or super-stealth systems which work equally well against electronic and visual targeting systems. In those circumstances, a squad of Space Marines might be better off jamming melta bombs into an enemy titan's knee joints, since by then they're inside the shields. of course, they still have to worry about the antipersonnel heavy bolters and the Princeps running a million volts through the titan's outer skin. |
| ThorLongus | 21 Nov 2011 10:42 a.m. PST |
always loved the cover of the old battletroops game by fasa
link |
| skippy0001 | 21 Nov 2011 11:14 a.m. PST |
2nd and 3rd-story attacks by troops armed with .50/20mm AT rifles for cockpit attacks.
By the way, in Battletech, when infantry goes against 'Mechs in a city, it's called 'Kick the Can'.
Best way to take out 'Mechs is to obliterate the Mech Pilots' housing/barracks. |
| Legion 4 | 21 Nov 2011 12:36 p.m. PST |
Yes, we used Titans/Mechs as heavily armed and armored mobile weapons platforms … they move on the table and start blasting away at enemy Titans/Mechs in support of the ground forces … We never fire our Titans at any other target than an enemy Titan, unless there are no Titan targets in range(or "alive"). We designate Titans as Priority Targets regardless of terrain … A Titan in urban terrain is as vulnerable as MBTs in urban terrain … if not more so … |
| Rottenlead | 21 Nov 2011 3:45 p.m. PST |
If I was attacking a mech I would just "Pull the legs off"
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| Mako11 | 21 Nov 2011 11:33 p.m. PST |
Tagging a vision slit, or camera with spraypaint, or a paint-filled waterballoon would work too. |
| Alex Reed | 22 Nov 2011 3:37 a.m. PST |
What are "Titans?" Mechs are not necessarily Huge. They might be not much larger than a man. And, even though I like things like Evas, they are not really a practical mecha, as they do not move as realistically as something that size would move (not to mention they come with whiney little boys and emo girls who make you want to bitch-slap them). More realistic mecha are like what is being constructed by Sarcos or Boston Dynamics, and are a little larger than a person. And people still keep trying to think of them as walking MBTs, when that is not likely to ever be the role they play. Yes, that's how they are depicted in fiction, by other people who make the same assumption, but that's just the problem. |
| Rottenlead | 22 Nov 2011 5:56 a.m. PST |
You have to hope that the mechs have some sort of ultra-actuators, super computer level AI in their Gyro and stabiliser systems and bunches of synthetic flexi-metal muscle. If all these things are driven by powerful micro-generators you might end up with something large but very agile and quick moving. I sign up to a far future view of technology delivery the large robots you see in Transformers. I don't think it is realistic but it is certainly fun IMHO and the reason why I wrote mecha designers and rules into Gruntz. Properly kitted out Mecha can respond rapidly to battlefield surveillance information and deploy appropriate systems against incoming troops. They can go hull-down quickly and use the cover of the battlefield to reduce their target profile to a minimum (tanks can't point a large gun around a corner without showing a bit of hull). To combat this troops might have stealth gear, some sort of jump attack to get close and limpet style kit to attach rapidly. Mecha might then also have anti-limpet tek to sense attached threats and disable them somehow by popping armor plates etc. I can imagine all sorts of options for assaulting troops and various counter measures to keep those pesky flesh-heads off the threads. |
| SaintGermaine | 22 Nov 2011 8:58 a.m. PST |
Trip Cables
Land Mines
Remotely piloted drones
Contact gases
Rust Monsters from D&D :)
Squigs teleported into the cockpit |
| Legion 4 | 22 Nov 2011 12:04 p.m. PST |
@ Alex – Titans are Games Workshop versions of Mechs. They come in basically 4 Sizes … averaging 60ft tall(in scale)… Large Man-size Mechs are called Dreadnaughts … (Really you never heard of Games Workshop Epic ??!?!) Mechs … Titans … apples & oranges … *** Warhound – Small Light Scout Titan –
*** Reaver – Medium Battle Titan –
*** Warlord -Main/Heavy Battle Titan –
*** Imperator – Super Heavy Battle Titan –
*** Dreadnaught –
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| Goose666 | 22 Nov 2011 1:10 p.m. PST |
Just watch Ghost in the shell the series.. either of the GIGs.. that would be my squad. :) |
 javelin98 | 22 Nov 2011 3:15 p.m. PST |
I was thinking about something like this the other day. A specialist vehicle or heavy weapons team equipped with some kind of device that would destroy or disrupt a gyro would be very valuable on the battlefield. Perhaps a guided missile that contained an electromagnetic warhead that would simply wreak havoc on the mech's gyro, something like that. A mech that can't walk or stand up is just a heavily armored speedbump. |
| Alex Reed | 22 Nov 2011 3:38 p.m. PST |
I've heard of Games Workshop Epic, but have only seen a few of the miniatures for it (I never had the motivation to go look to see what they actually had). And I certainly hadn't seen the Titans, which are a little bit like Evas in that they are completely over-the-top (but less appealing). But if those are what people are talking about taking out, then, yes, those legs would be the target… Geez! Those things are ridiculous. And Section 9 would be about as good as you could get for anti-mech (Especially Batou and Bulma – big guns and bombs). |
| Legion 4 | 22 Nov 2011 8:58 p.m. PST |
And yes, I agree, the G/W Titans are a bit over-the-top … But I painted some up and used them to game with anyway. Only about 25-33% of the total battleforce points were used on Titans … And in many games we didn't used Titans at all … Now IIRC, most BT Mechs have legs too … So killing off either Titans or Mechs(apples & oranges), would be about the same … And I don't think you'd need any special troops to do the job … Like I said, Anti-Armor Wpns, CAS, FA, Gunships, Naval and Orbital assets, etc. could be used for Titan/Mech killing … Of course we've done it on the gaming table … anything that has a hard time finding cover & concealment is an easy target. Of ocurse in my youth I spent over a decade as an infantryman. We spent a good deal of time learning how to kill tanks … I'd imagine if such a thing as a Mech/Titan existed we'd learn how to kill those too. As an infantry officer, the most powerful weapon I had was my radio. I could call-in all kinds of stuff on a target. As well as had a lot of Anti-Armor weapons on-hand, LAWs, Dragons, TOWs, AT mines, etc. … |
| Alex Reed | 23 Nov 2011 11:51 a.m. PST |
Battletech is just another instance of not using a mech properly. Not to mention that anything larger than about 12 to 15 feet tall isn't going to be able to move quickly enough to be of much use. Learning how to kill something isn't the same as requiring a specialized unit to kill it. |
| Legion 4 | 23 Nov 2011 12:24 p.m. PST |
I'm not a player of Battle Tech, but as I said, Titans & Mechs are basically the same thing/target … Now as far as special Anti-Mech units … We had similiar discussion on WWII US TD doctrine. We don't use TD Bns since the end of WWII. Tank units are the best Anti-Armor units. And Infantry units have Anti-Armor weapons organic to their TO&Es. So I still don't see the need for anti-mech units in a sci-fi game … BUT …. I you want to use them in a game, do what works for you …  |
| Alex Reed | 23 Nov 2011 11:13 p.m. PST |
That's kind my thought. Plus, since I'm currently studying to work on stuff that will be used in actual mechs (I'm hoping to wind up in Homayoon Kazerooni's lab at Berkeley, where the HULC was invented), the likelihood that actual infantry will be very useful against a Mech is pretty low (They are going to be a LOT HARDER to hit than a tank). It's going to take a whole new type of weapon to deal with a lot of newer protective gear that would go into making a mech. And, if a type of weapon is created (Sticky-gummy stuff being the most likely), then I imagine that it would be something that is issues to the rank-n-file like anything else. |
| Legion 4 | 24 Nov 2011 9:44 a.m. PST |
Well look forward to seeing what protective gear comes out for "Mechs" … however, at this point any of the Anti-Armor weapons that are available to Grunts would probably do the job … But I'll wait and see what new "Magic" science comes up with … |
| infojunky | 24 Nov 2011 10:22 a.m. PST |
Ok, to blatantly honest most of my Anti-Mech tactics for infantry is the equivalent of tying the Mech shoelaces together. As for a mech being able to use the terrain as per a infantryman really depends on the size an flexibility of of said mech. As for the argument of a mech being harder to hit than the equivalent conventionally designed AFV, you are going to have quantify your reasoning on that, as a Modern 1st world MBT, such as the M1 Abrams is a pretty hard target between it mobility and it's armor load. I have been told several times by tankers that shooting while stationary is bad form…. As I drove PBRs I understand this concept. But back to the basics, things that I would deploy against mechs most work against AFVs as well. Now things like Anti-Mech specific Claymores kinda frightening. And well the image from Animal House amuses me the 50,000 marbles probably wouldn't work vs. a legged vehicle as well as expect for the lighter mechs as ground pressure would tend deform either the marbles or the roadbed. Though I can see concertina wire being a effect area denial weapon for mechs. |
| Legion 4 | 24 Nov 2011 2:40 p.m. PST |
And now that I think about it … "learning to kill something" is what Infantrymen do … so we specialize in that … whether humans, AFVs, Mechs, aliens, etc. … |
| Lion in the Stars | 24 Nov 2011 4:00 p.m. PST |
8th MS team had the (damnfool pacifist) unit leader take out a Zaku with what amounts to a LAW. Wait until the Zeke is standing directly over you and then shoot it in the crotch… inside of the hip (where you can't have any heavy armor due to mobility restrictions). In the 2004 Appleseed movie, the Landmates were taking down gunspiders the interesting way: blind it, kneecap it, drop a couple buildings on it. Revised targeting protocols in a fire&forget missile like a Javelin or Predator SRAW to go after knee joints. Once you're talking about a humaniform weapon, the tactics of several martial arts will come into play (not to mention several thousand years of fighting humans). It might take more force to do it, but you're still talking about some pretty basic concepts. Finally, the Gunslinger Girl manga had the 'girls' (full-prosthetic cyborgs) facing opponents with Barrett .50s and 20mm AT guns, because anything less wasn't enough to kill them outright. |
updates a squad to the new edition of the rules.
