"1/87 for 15mm" Topic

So the question is can 1/87, HO, or 19.5 mm, etc. vehicles be used for 15mm gaming.

The work that Tacobat has done on his blog is very impressive and made me wonder.

imperialarmour.blogspot.com

I have a ROCO M60A2 and it does not mix with my QRF M60, there is a clear size difference.

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I was hoping those with more experience with the models can weigh in.

Thanks

For SF it's a non issue surely – what matters is does it look in scale to my other figs.

For moderns again it depends. If all your vehicles are 1/87 then it shouldn't be an issue, but the moment you mix amongst manufacturers problems arise.

What he said. Terrain isn't such a big deal and HO scenery items are fine.

It works better, with the new, larger, 18mm scale figs.

A lot will depend on what size 15 mm figures you are dealing with. I have seen some 15 mm which measure 18 to the eyes and 20ish to the top of the head. That is HO scale (figuring 5' 8" peeps and all). There seems to be an increasing number of those out there now.

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Some of the older 15 mm stuff is shorter though – so keep that in mind.

For mixing and matching, that is a different issue. Vehicle manufacturers are dealing with something different than figure sculptors…that is actual standards. A figure sculptor just sort of pushes stuff around and doesn't worry too much about how big it is. A vehicle sculptor has a book, blue prints, pictures, diagrams…and a calculator. They actually determine what size the vehicle will be before they make a mess of things (certain liberties are taken in order to make sure that the barrel of the rifle is smaller than the barrel of the tanks main gun, but that…again, is due to the figure sculptors who lack any standards).

In the case you mention, QRF vehicles are made to the old 15 mm vehicle scale, 1:100. Now if you run the math on the newer figures – most of them end up being somewhere around 7'6" tall in the 1:100 scale.

So…1:87 for 15mm? No. 1:87 for what is being sold as 15mm? Yes.

I used 1/87 cheap diecast cars for scenery for my AK-47 games becuase I couldn't find anything in 1/100 cheap enough. Personally I don't think the 1/87 cars looked out of place but others might disagree.

Well, does look ok to you? If so, sure….

While the stated scale is 1/100th… it isn't a rule. It is all about what looks right.

To be frank not every HO model manufacturer uses the same definition of 1/87th… Cheeper companies tend to be real variable in this case… .

But really if it looks good then use it…

In the case you mention, QRF vehicles are made to the old 15 mm vehicle scale, 1:100. Now if you run the math on the newer figures – most of them end up being somewhere around 7'6" tall in the 1:100 scale.

The 'old' 15mm scale would be 15mm from sole to top of head, thus approx 1:110/1:120. It's only in more recent years that you have seen a standardisation of 1:100 for 15mm. Well, for most of us.

18mm tall at 1:100 is 1.8 metres, or 5'11". By the time you figure in the base they are cast on, and the base you mount them on, they are already pretty much 20mm tall so closer to 1/87 anyway ;-)

A figure sculptor just sort of pushes stuff around and doesn't worry too much about how big it is.

Well, we try to. I have sample of OG, BF, Peter Pig, etc that I use, as well as a ruler. I do try to avoid the 'one long arm', 'no arse' or 'stubby leg' syndromes. The important bit is anatomical proportions (bearing in mind you can people, including soldiers, in all shapes and sizes) and consistent/proportioned/scale equipment. A rifle barrel should not look like a bazooka. :-)

A vehicle sculptor has a book, blue prints, pictures, diagrams…and a calculator.

The problem with all of those is compare any two of them and you will get two different results. Get a third and you will likely get three different results! Dimensions given can be misleading, depending on what they are measuring – is that length with or without gun? Where is that height measured to; the turret top, or the highest point? Usually you can extrapolate all three axis to keep it in proportion… usually.

certain liberties are taken in order to make sure that the barrel of the rifle is smaller than the barrel of the tanks main gun

We try to stick closer to real dimensions for gun barrels, although that can make then more prone to bending/breaking. However we generally feel that a 25mm chain gun should look like a 25mm chain gun, not a 75mm howitzer, and a necessity for slightly careful handling is a worthwhile exchange to avoid all your vehicles having tree trunks on the front ;-)

I have a ROCO M60A2 and it does not mix with my QRF M60, there is a clear size difference.

Assuming your Roco M60A2 is 1:87, then I would expect no less when comparing it to our 1:100 scale M60A2…

Geoff
QRF
quickreactionforce.co.uk

When I used to play Striker we used lots of 1/87th ROCo stuff. It was great for kitbashing into GEV/grav vehicles.

I think for sci fi kit bashes they probably work fine – with sci fi it is whatever scale you want it to be.

I have a collection of the good old fashion 15mm stuff from QRF/Irishserb/Skytex(Old Glory)/Peter Pig, so I will not lilely be converting.

I do believe the 1/87 stuff will not mix and match and I will try to produce some comparison photos so people can see and judge for themselves.

But I did want ot let people know that there was a source of models not commonly known (at least not to me), that can useful to both modern and Sci-fi 15mm gamers.

The Sci-fi gamers of course can take a lot stuff there and do some great kit bashes or simply have "big" version of a modern obsure AFV. Things to tend to scale creep after all…=)

This tank may be obsure enough that people may not know what it is.

Or simple as a source of non combat vehicles.

Well, we try to.

Better than a lot of them. ;)

Bit jaded in my old age I guess – but the majority of my statements do ring true all the same. Even with variations between drawings and the like, you are still dealing with dimensions and divisions of those dimensions when creating vehicles and structures.

Figure sculptors (some are pretty good…however a large portion are very bad) on the other hand seem to feel that they should not be limited in that way. If you take a look at the link I posted above, it has a lot of new 15 mm stuff in it – many of them with handy references (rulers or bases of a known dimension). A plurality of the 15mm figures (skipping aliens and robots of course) are already 19-20 mm tall without including the base. With the integrated base and something thing like a washer – they are well over 20 mm tall. If you use a plastic 20 mm base, they are getting really close to being 25 mm tall (which if you are in the figure + base = scale height camp…you are into 1:72 or 1:76 territory).

When I put them against my own cache of test figures, many of the 15 mm gaming figures are actually taller than HO figures from Woodland Scenics and Preiser.

The 'old' 15mm scale would be 15mm from sole to top of head, thus approx 1:110/1:120.

Yah – but that goes back to the stone age when the eye/head debate was more rampant. Eye level seems to have one quite handily…though sculptors don't seem to have stopped there. Give them an inch and they will take a mile and all that.

When I used to play Striker we used lots of 1/87th ROCo stuff. It was great for kitbashing into GEV/grav vehicles.

Nice thing about kit bashing is that scale is largely irrelevant. An action figure sized fighter jet can become a 28 mm transport. 15 mm transports work well as bases for 28 mm gunships. Main guns from 10 mm tanks make pretty good 1:72 chin guns. You use what works and leave the rest behind.

Even with variations between drawings and the like, you are still dealing with dimensions and divisions of those dimensions when creating vehicles and structures.

That only works if the drawings are consistent. Many of them disagree, both in size and proportion.

The 'old' 15mm scale would be 15mm from sole to top of head, thus approx 1:110/1:120.

Yah – but that goes back to the stone age when the eye/head debate was more rampant. Eye level seems to have one quite handily…though sculptors don't seem to have stopped there. Give them an inch and they will take a mile and all that.

Not that long ago. 15mm has only been around for the last 40 years. The 15mm to the eye sizing has only really come about in the last 10, allegedly due to issues with Napoleonics and not being able to guess where the top of the head is in different hedgear. However even if you said 15mm to the eye, the overall height would only be about 16.5mm, not 18mm.

Of course the other problem is…

…which one of these is right for 15mm?

"This tank may be obsure enough that people may not know what it is."

LOL, I think the obscurity or not of that particular vehicle depends when and where you were brought up.

I did manage to mis-identify an AMX-13 on the table as one of those once though (well, it was 6mm and the lighting was poor…).

In our perfect miniature world all of our toy soldiers are exactly the same hight. The Generals enforced it using those Gattata movie techniques. Sorry son you gotta grow 5 inches. :-)

Martin R,

You are perfectly right, obscurity is very much in the eye of the beholder. One day I will have to explain to my children that walkman was.

I am also sure one day will come while hosting a nice Cold War battle with M60s vs T-72s tnaks; a kid will walk up and ask "Are you guys playing that WWII game or somthing?".

The Roco US WWII deuce and a half will work very nicely with the Zvezda 1/100th scale Katusha rocket launchers.