"Russian grenadier questions...." Topic

I understand that (1811 onward) there were Grenadier and Line Infantry regiments. Several things are not clear to me.

1- The line infantry consisted of 4 companies per battallion, of wich 1 was Grenadiers. First of : were these companies always grouped in combined grenadier battallions ? If yes, wich flags did those combined battallions have, and were the battallions from wich these grenadiers companies were substracted then reduced to 3 infantry companies an therefore smaller in numbers ?

2- Were there still infantry regiments wich included the grenadier company ?

I don't think the converged grenadiers carried flags at all.

There were 4 companies (8 platoons) per battallion as you stated. But the grenadier company was split into two platoons, one on the left and right flank, which left the center 6 platoons or 3 companies unchanged. The one on the right styled as such with plume, and another company triallers (spelling?) who were uniformed like the line but had a different colouring of the shako pompon. In a regiment there existed on paper 3 battalions per regiment. Only the first and third were group together in the regiment, kept their grenadiers and were issued flags. The grenadiers were stripped from the 2nd. battallion and combined with other second battallions to form a converge grenadier division, which of course was significantly smaller than an infantry division. Converged grenadier battalions did not carry flags.

I think I got this right, if not someone will soon correct me.

ilodic.

Hi BelgianRay,

This is indeed something of an complex question and one that I have had to thing about myself very recently in wargaming terms.

Ilodic's response above chimes exactly with my research, all I would like to add is that the 2nd Bn of which he speaks was meant as a 'depot' Battalion, not part of the field army.

So effectively a line regiment went on campaign with 2 Bn's, each of which had an integral Grenadier coy…

FWIW, I use 36 fig Bns for Black Powder/Gen de Bde and so have included 6 Grenadier figs:

That is correct -- the 1st and 3rd battalions of the grenadier, musketeer, and jager regiments were the "field" battalions and kept their grenadier/tirallieur company with the battalion. The 2nd battalion (of all three types of regiment) was the depot battalion. Its grenadier company was stripped away and converged with others into the grenadier division/corps that was part of the army reserve. During the invasion of 1812, the depot battalions were mobilized for field service, without their grenadiers, which resulted in smaller battalions. The converged grenadier battalions would not have carried flags.

Jim

This is exactly what I wanted to know. I make my battalion s of 24 figs, so 4 comp woudld make 6 Grenadiers for 1 comp , am I on track? And no flags for the converged beattalions ?

BelgianRay, yes you have it. But I think that only one of the two platoons which comprised the grenadier company wore black plumes for a LINE battalion. For Convereged grenadier or standing grenadier Battalions all wore black plumes but again the centre pompom of the shako differed in Grenadier, Line, or Jager regiments. Also worth noting Jager regiments and CONVERGED Grenadier regiments did NOT carry colours. Line, Guard and STANDANDING Grenadier regiments DID carry colours.

I assume your configuration would look like the following… (24 figs 3 X 8) G = Grenadiers, C = Centre (or Line), T = Tirallieur where each column represents a platoon. The reason for this again, is the Grenadier company was split to be assigned on the flanks.

G C C C C C C T
G C C C C C C T
G C C C C C C T

ilodic.

Just a quick comment about my previous post. The G or Grenadiers were positioned on the right side of the battalion. What I wrote was intentional, but possibly misleading, I just tend to view the battalion as if it was heading "towards" me.

Ah, mine go like this, in column, maybe the previous one is in line?

front
TTTGGG – Grenadier/Tirailleur company
CCCCCC – infantry Coy
CCCCCC – infantry coy
CCCCCC – infantry coy
back

Though this is from an old Osprey, so don't know how reliable?

Oh, another thing, the Converged Grenadier battalions also included elite companies from the 2nd battalions of the Eger regiments. Usually a Division could form two CG battalions, each made up of the elite companies of two infantry Rgt 2nd Bns and one elte coy from the 2nd Bn of a Eger rgt. Though this varied on occasion. The Combined grenadiers were not usually deployed with their parent divisions but lumped together into a small division of their own.

Yes, it was meant to be in line formation. Timbo your column formation is right on though. You can see from the link below if you scroll down a bit to the Russian organization 1811-1815. BelgianRay, this is also a good visual representation of what I was attempting to illustrate.

link

ilodic

Thank you all very much for the enlightment, wich brings me back to the 2nd part of my first question :
" were the battallions from wich these grenadiers companies were substracted then reduced to 3 infantry companies an therefore smaller in numbers ?"

I think that's the case BelgianRay but am not 100% sure. The 2nd Bn of the regiment was supposed to remain in depot, so don't appear in the main front-line armies (eg at Borodino), but I think they were mobilised into Reserve Divisions in 1812.

Again, another recently done item. The 1st and 3rd (field) battalions each had one Grenadier company made up of one vzvod of Grenaderski on the right of the battalion, and one of Strelki (sharpshooters)on the left. [Order of 12 Oct 1810]

The 2nd or Reserv battalions were to give over their grenadier companies to their field battalions. When the entire division was together, they were to combine to form a combined reserve (Svodnye Grenaderskie bataliony) of two 3-company battalions. When part of a Korpus, a brigady; and when part of an armiya, a reserve divisiya.

The Converged grenadiers carried the regimentefahne of the reserve battalion of the senior regiment forming that battalion.

At the same time the Grenadier battalions passed into history as all Grenadier battalions were reorganized as Fusilier battalions, each of one Grenadier and three fusilier campanies. (Except the Lieb-Grenaderskii Pulk)

Thre were no "infantry' regiments in the Russian army until 22 Feb 1811 when all "Mushketerskii" regiments were redesignated "Pekhotnii" (Infantry).

Nice Femeng2, hadn't realised the Combined Grenadiers carried the flag of the senior contributing Bn.

Wow , incredible what info one gets here. OK as long as I can pick your cknoledge here goes : what differentieated the Strelski uniform from the Grenaderski, I mean : how should I paint te difference between them ?

Copied from Mark Conrad's Viskovatov- link

Both Grenadiers and Strelki had a three-flamed grenade badge on the front of their shakos (the infantry had a single-flame grenade). Only Grenadier platoon wore the tall plume (in line regiments). They also differed in pompoms and swordknots – see below

a.) Pompons.
1st battalion, in the 1st Grenadier company – red for Grenadiers, yellow for Marksmen; in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Infantry companies – white with a green center

2nd battalion, in the 2nd Grenadier company – red with green below for Grenadiers, yellow with green below for Marksmen; in the 4th, 5th and 6th Infantry companies – green with a white center

3rd battalion, in the 3rd Grenadier company – red with sky blue below for Grenadiers, yellow with sky blue below for Marksmen; in the 7th, 8th and 9th Infantry companies – sky blue with a white center

b.) Swordknots.
1st battalion, in the 1st Grenadier company – for Grenadiers, red acorns [derevyashki], loops [gaiki], and bands [okolyshi] or trinchiki, yellow for Marksmen; in the Infantry comapnies – white acorns with the loops and bands according to the company: in the 1st company – white, in the 2nd – sky blue, and in the 3rd – orange (Illus. 1320).

2nd battalion, in the 2nd Grenadier company – for Grenadiers, red acorns and green loops and bands; for Marksmen, yellow acorns and green loops and bands; in the Infantry companies – green acorns with the loops and bands according to the company: in the 4th company – white, in the 5th – sky blue, and in the 6th – orange (Illus. 1320).

3rd battalion, in the 3rd Grenadier company – for Grenadiers, red acorns and sky blue loops and bands; for Marskmen, yellow acorns and sky blue loops and bands; in the Infantry companies – sky blue acorns with the loops and bands according to the company: in the 7th company – white, in the 8th – sky blue, and in the 9th – orange (Illus. 1320).

The lace and fringe of swordknots are left white, as before, with black and orange bands for noncommissioned officers (717).

Timbo W,
I presume the Strelki platoon retained the three-flamed grenade badge on the cartridge pouch, as well as the kiwer – would this be correct? I'm making up some Warlord plastic 1812 Russians, and as the pouch comes with the three-flamed grenade I wondered whether it was necessary to trim this down to one flame for both the Strelki and the infantry, or just the infantry……. I might as well get it right for the minimal effort involved :-)

npm

Yes I think so. I must admit that what I do is paint the pouch or shako black, then pick out the grenade in brass with one flame for infantry, three for grenadiers. Admittedly mine are 20mm but you don't really notice the 'un-coloured' flames.

Timbo W,
Thanks for the info – the plastic Warlord figures all have the three-flames, but it's easy enough to scrap two away with a sharp blade [as they actually recommend] – but as you say, if I mess up and get carried away with the scraping, I can always paint in the flames.

npm

Here is a regiment at 1 to 20 figure scale. You can see the first battalion's Grenadier platoon on the right of the line. We include a flag with the first Battalions' Grenadiers for no particular reason…

The "lights" are on the left of the line on split stands. Will