"Why is "The Empire Strikes Back" considered so great?" Topic

I am one who always tends to think that the first thing in a series is always the best. Particularly if a sequel is not initially envisioned.

It sets the stage, introduces the characters, etc. The first usually tells a complete story, and does not need a sequel.

As an example of this, I find the Godfather superior to Godfather 2. Movie critics do not, however. As with Star Wars, I find the original a complete story.
Empire Strikes Back is almost universally considered to be the best in the series. I don't understand why.

I am not knocking Empire. It's a "good" movie. But "superior"? Why?
That is all I want to know. Why?

Micheal Strazynski compared the 3rd season of Babylon 5 to Empire Strikes Back as being the most popular with fans. He says that in both cases everything goes from bad to worse for our heroes. When events are at their worst, we usually see our heroes at their best.

Off the top of my head:
The story is a shocker. The bad guys win. Our hero is maimed.

The supporting characters all have something to do. Chewie is always working on the ship rather than standing in the background. R2 lays down smoke screens.

The effects work is still beautiful.

It doesn't feed you everything. The tree sequence on Degobah.

Several great lines and moments. "I'd just assume kiss a Wookie!" Han going into the chamber. "I know."

A New Hope is great fun, but Empire kicks everything into high gear.

I recall seeing it in the cinema and left thinking "that was all the wrong way around" – the big battle is at the start and then it just meanders along for a bit until the Empire achieve a reasonable result.

Totally Serpico !

The quality of both the writing and the directing are superior to any of the other films (largely because Lucas did neither). It also brings deeper elements into both characterization and story as relationships expand in different directions than we expect and surprising revelations occur. It also ends on a note of mystery, leaving us to question whether the Rebellion can ultimately succeed, and what will be the fate of our heroes.

Plus it has great lines like: "Try? Do, or do not. There is no try."

"I'd just as soon kiss a Wookie!"
"That can be arranged."

"You like me because I'm a scoundrel. There aren't enough scoundrels in your life."

"I love you."
"I know."

"I am altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further."

"No. I am your father."

However, like you, Star Wars remains my favorite of the entire franchise, just for its originality and sense of fun.

The music is amazing too:

Battle Of Hoth
The Imperial March
The Asteroid theme
Yoda's Theme
Carbon Freeze
The theme for Bobba Fett – 6 notes on a Bassoon that conveys real menance and mystery.

G.

It is partly because they don't have to waste any time introducing all the characters, and the ending is untidy and enigmatic with more questions and problems than answers. Much more satisfying in a film than a boring happy/sad ending.

Same sort of reasons why 'The Two Towers' is far and away the best of the three LoTR films.

It's a movie with characters you love, there is no set-up like "A New Hope" you know who everyone is.

There are characters arcs like Luke becoming a Jedi, Han becoming a Hero, and Leia falling in love.

Vader is at his most powerful, and the characters are vulnerable.

You never get a sense of danger with the prequels you already know the story. With empire there is a chance that something bad might happen to any of your beloved characters at anytime.

In Empire the rebels lose their battle on Hoth, Luke leaves his training early to save his friends and finds himself in a trap and then looses his fight with Darth, C3PO is blown apart, Boba Fett has found and is following Han and Leia, and then they are captured after they are betrayed by Lando.

So many twists and turns.

Unlike the prequels you care for these characters, and you don't know what will happen to them so you are more emotional involved. It's hard to see characters you like in those positions so you become more invested in the story.

Empire is the best because your two dimensional characters from "A New Hope" become three dimensional.

Hmm, lots of reasons, many already mentioned. This needs to be repeated:

The quality of both the writing and the directing are superior to any of the other films (largely because Lucas did neither).

The lightsaber duel is better
Many good lines as noted
Snowspeeders and Tauntauns
Boba Fett
Vader is menacing yet mysterious

Where Star Wars ended very neat and tidy, Empire definitely ended with a sense of "What just happened? I have to see it again!"

For me, it was also the first one I actually saw in the Theatre. I was too young (six) for the first one, so Empire completely sucked me into the SW universe. Since then, it has always held the strongest emotional pull. Plust what everyone else said, above.

I saw the first one in the theater. Never had seen anything like it before. To me it is the best Star Wars movie. Empire Strikes Back cheesed me off. It had a cliff hanger. I hate cliff hangers!

Parzival has it right. It was the movie with the least Lucas involvement after the initial story idea, thus he had the least chance to muck it up.

Epic story, not the usual Hollywood ending, plus the closet storm-trooper fans out there get to watch the Empire kick butt

In the second film… it's all very real.

There's not a lot of time spent discovering that a clueless yokel is the heir to a legacy of exciting duels and heavy breathing. There's less "let's be mischevious rebels".

It is a more serious film, with more serious consequences. Everybody already knows that the Death Star 2 is capable of ruining planets and the empire is deadly serious about doing so at will. There is immediate peril, and action taken to overcome it.

The gravity of decisions is more believable.

The idea that Empire was the better movie didn't really take hold until the 90s. When it first came out, general opinion was "Good, but not as good". It really comes down to a shift in what the public prefers from movies.

Saw the first three in the theater. The first movie had a WOW! factor never recaptured by the other films. I thought the first to be the best and that each of the next two got worse as they went along. By number three I had had it and never saw the others in their entirety. I dont know why Empire is supposedly better but then I never seem to agree with movie critics anyway. Battle for Hoth, new toys, thought the AT-AT was ridiculous, pow, pow, bzapp, etc.
Swamp world and Cloud City boring.

Hi, I'm curious as to what you base that on Zyphyr? My recollection was that Empire was pretty popular and did well at the Box office especially considering we were in a recession.

Thanks,

John

AT-AT's and a ground battle. Don't really need to go deeper than that.

One of the few movies in the entire series that didn't end by needing to blow up the really big space ship.

Star Wars fans who saw it in the cinema knew it would be good because George did not include the Ewoks. when we first saw the Ewoks we were worried he would put them in a film, and when they were not in TESB we were relieved.

Then George Lucas stuck them in ROTJ and we lamented bitterly

I agree with OFM. Two Towers was the best LOTR movie? Are you mad?

Empire had the best characterization, the best plot twist, and the best plotting of the three movies.

Two Towers is the best of the LotR movies as well. Only due to the dead warriors being so lame (in both the books and the movies)

Good pacing, better writing, fewer stupid bits.

As mentioned, because the Empire is at its best, and things look bad for our weary band of Rebels.

It is quite good, but I rate it about equal with the first movie. The untrained "farm boy" destroying the Death Star was a bit over the top for me in that one, even if it was a fun movie.

The first movie got me right away with the opening ship battle. You see the cruiser go by being fired on and then this huge ship fills the screen and the camera stays still while this ship passes by and by and by , you realize this ship is huge. The cruiser is up against not a ship but a n empire that can build ships that are miles in length. You feel the crushing power of the empire. How can the rebels defeat an empire like this.

Darth Vader doing the double take at the end.

He has the Falcon, and more importantly the heroes, in his grasp, bearing down on them in a Super Star Destroyer, helpless to escape… and they're gone. First time he's seen as a human IMO.

Plus, AT-ATs. Really, nothing more to say…

what everyone else said, plus it broke records for numbers of special effect shots, matte work, etc.

Adrenaline all the way. Loved it!

I showed the movies to my kids in order, prequels first, to see how it would be for them the first time, in order. They liked Revenge Of The Sith and Empire Strikes Back best. Because Anakin and Leia are their favorite characters, and they get to see Anakin become Darth Vader, and then Darth Vader at his best.

The Imperial March…

Mick

As a kid I saw all the movies in the theater when they first came out and Empire was my favorite for reasons already stated in this thread.

Jason
Stafford, VA

Battle of Hoth.

VR
James Mattes

No Ewoks.

Because the forces of order are at their high point at the end. I was never a great fan of winging rebels.

"No. I am your father."

Gee, thanks for the spoiler warning.
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waco joe nailed it…

AT-ATs!!!!

Meh.
I thought RotJ was better than ESB.
Music was good though.

Why is ESB considered so great? Two words:

Irvin Kershner

It was the only 1 of the 6 movies that had a real Director.

I believe I don't know who Irvin Kershner is care to enlighten me on what he has directed besides ESB?

BTW I did like Return of the Jedi more just my two cents.

Captain Gideon

John et al:
I started seeing them before they knew there'd be sequels, so while everyone else calls it "A New Hope", to me it will always just be "Star Wars", as it was for those fifty-plus times in the theatre… having established my geek-cred… ;-)
For me, "Empire" outshines "Star Wars" because there is a real sense of characterization, of striving, of conflict and depth and good resisting evil on every level.
We see Rebel soldiers willing to sacrifice their lives to protect the evacuation of their comrades and even, presuambly, their families.
We see Vader's first real personal defeat in Luke's unwillingness to break despite a terrible oersonal revelation (and I got to tellall my buddies "Told you so!" when Luke's parentage was first revealed).
We see Han's moral growth peak at the moment he is snatched away, and another, Lando, regain his sense of responsibility to more than just a single city's prosperity, but to freedom itself.
But more than anything else, I prefer "Empire" because it DOESN'T have a pat, happy ending, like "Star Wars" before it or "return" after.
Lucas always said he couldn't figure out why people preferred "Empire", because, as he put it "the bad guys win; "Return" is better because the good guys win!", and that really bothered him, but that alone is proof that he realy does not "get" his audience, and maybe never will.
We prefer "Empire" not because the bad guys win, but because the good guys lose; they get their asses kicked. They are defeated, scattered, maimed, damaged and deeply wounded… and the STILL… DON'T… QUIT.
It's always easy to applaud the winner.
But for me it's when the guy who is in the right is beaten, bloodied but unbowed, lifts his head, sets his jaw, and rises to fght again that makes me stand up and cheer.
Plus, dude… WALKER BATTLE!!! :-)

I prefer the original 'StarWars' movie as well (fun, self contained space-opera, less soap-opera), but 'Empire' is still pretty good, for all the reasons listed above. 'Return of the Jedi' was not so good, IMHO, on the same scale('epic soap-opera' replaces 'light hearted space-opera')…

But all three of these are MASTERPIECES compared to you-know-what…. (Just wait until Mickey-Mouse gives Jar-Jar a midochlorian injection….)

I always enjoyed ROTJ more but that was due to the larger battles and more epicness in general. The ewoks are annoying but easily ignored. They basically provide a distraction for the ground battle that is great if you remove the teddy bears smashing troopers.

I think Empire takes a higher place for most people because it's the second super hero movie. The first one creates the world so you get a lot more dialog and world building. That is great but the second movie is generally better because it can get right to the action and push those established characters to their limits. Marvel actually screwed the cycle up with Iron Man but I think they are correcting it with Thor and Captain. Iron Man 1 was great but 2 was just iron man running around kicking butt and taking names. If you sub 3 in the place of 2 (still needs to be post avengers) then it's a much better story. I've always been drawn to the cycle of building the hero up and then breaking him down. So ANH builds the characters and Empire shatters them but they overcome and end on a high note of hope. ROTJ shows them rise up and finally over throw.

It's also a cycle that isn't present in the prequels and hurts them because of it. Those movies just become a character study in how selfishness and greed lead you to destruction. It's depressing. Also don't whine it will make you a sith.

"You never get a sense of danger with the prequels you already know the story. With empire there is a chance that something bad might happen to any of your beloved characters at anytime."

I actually had a looming sense of "doom" while watching the prequels (no, not because of acting/quality/lack of <insert negative>), but I knew the kid from Phantom Menace(somewhat annoying, yes,but just go with it) that was a hero was ultimately going to betray those he cared about most, so whatever he did that was good and so on through the other 2 movies, could only have 1 outcome…Darth Vader, the ultimate bad guy, and all the Jedi that I followed in the movies were going to die except Obi-Wan and Yoda (and a few others that went into hiding..etc..)…just my thoughts on it.

As for Empire being the favored movie, personally I love ROTJ, because of the action sequences mostly I suppose, but the introduction of the Rebel Commandos is what won me over as a kid and I've been obsessed with them ever since! Ewoks, love 'em, my favorite scenes are watching them club Stormies to death…priceless.

@CorSecEng – definitely agree with you about the Iron Man series (still love the first one best)..one day I'll get to play the Star Wars card game with you…lol!!!

For me, Empire is only the best if you watch all three at once. If I'm only watching one, then it's Star Wars or Jedi. Both of those come to a definite conclusion. Even the Ewoks aren't that bad. yes, they're little fuzzy pygmies, and we could perhaps have seen a bit more to make them seem more like people than cute animal sidekicks, but I've never quite understood the hatred.

Yub yub.

For me it was better because it had less of the ham-handedness of Lucas' Star Wars (because Lucas was NOT allowed to direct it).

I can't compare it to Two towers as I have difficulty staying awake long enough to watch a lotr movie. That movie is my NyQuil.

I think there's a couple of things favoring Empire:
1) Special effects were in the sweet spot of being ambitious, but dating well compared to current state of the art. RotJ has some places that look rough to me regardless of the cleaned up editions and Ewoks costuming unfortunately fell short of "primitive warrior" and came up "teddy bear". Star Wars' effects also date well, but don't have quite the same scale.
2) Empire and RotJ really are a single movie. Empire sets up the conflict and tension and thus the story. RotJ creates its own tension, but also is cursed with resolving Empire's tension and the overall story line. That means it's partly doing housekeeping duty.
3) Kershner, as others said. But, Lucas still did a bang up job directing Star Wars. He got full of himself along the way and waited WAY too long to bring the original trilogy while doing no directing to speak of between Star Wars and Menace.

Consider this about Empire: the various "upgrades" done to the films by Lucas have left Empire with very few significant alterations. Mostly, it's audio tweaks and set dressing. We don't have the "Han shot first" debate, or the swapping of Shaw for Christensen to argue about.

The quality of both the writing and the directing are superior to any of the other films (largely because Lucas did neither).

And had Leigh Bracket-Hamilton who did do a lot of writing on that one.
Look her up if you don`t know who she was, not only a well respected Hollywood screenwriter but also a contemporary of some `classic period` science-fiction writers like Heinlein or Asimov.