"Modern Marines vs Imperial Romans...it could happen!" Topic

What you are describing is a passive act (watch but not interfere) – what about an active act? If ordered to shoot down a crowd of children would you have? Could you have? And still function effectively as a unit?

The point I am trying to get across is that this concept is more than a technical question, firepower versus numbers. I think it is the human psychology that would be decisive over time.

Wouldn't the Roman's command structure be a disadvantage? I mean all a Marine sniper team has to do is look for the guys with the fancy hats and standards near them. The Romans wouldn't know what hit them, just that their leaders heads keep exploding. The snipers wouldn't even have to change position to take out multiple targets.

I don't think the run of the mill centurion, let alone any conscripted troops, will operate as independently as a Marine rifleman.

Between capping off the leadership and dropping a few mortar rounds into the tight troop formations there should be chaos let alone a route before a rifle squad even got a shot off.

The idea of a small number of Marines killing thousands of Romans is rather boring. I'd rather see what happens several years after they have arrived.

In the short term the marines would win, but what would they do? Advance on the city of Rome? Why? They could take Antioch which was a major city and set up their own empire. I think they would be shocked at what they would find. I have worked in Africa and my first trip was a real eye opener, I'm sure any active duty solider could say that about Iraq and Afghanistan. But for the ancient world we could only imagine the horrors that the poor had to suffer. How would the Marines feel when they see large numbers of lepers? What about those suffering from disease as that in the 21st century are easy to treat? They would be in a society where unwanted babies are thrown on rubbish heaps or left exposed until they die. How would they react to slavery? How would those who are Christians react to the "pagan" religions? Would they try to convert the locals? I imagine that a large number of Marines would want to stay and assist these people, rather than march on Rome. Our compassion would outweigh the need for territorial conquest. On the other hand would discipline hold up if the Romans offered gold and abundant slave girls to the Marines to desert and fight for them against their comrades?

The closest historical parallel is the Spanish conquest of the Aztec and Inca empires. The Spaniards had some technological advantages and a fanatic belief in the superiority of their cause, but really it was the diseases, particularly smallpox that killed hundreds of thousands if not millions of Mesoamericans. I would imagine that the diseases the Marines would bring would have the same effect. In the end they would be isolated and viewed as angels of death by the locals, no matter how technologically superior they were.

Snipers?

I bet one of their 50 cal rounds could go through more Romans than a scorpion bolt, probably at least 2-3 times more, I would imagine!

So don't stand behind that centurian!

Mike

Theres another thought.

There Romans ability to get used to shell shock and on the other hand, the Marines abilty to deal with GORE by classical HACK and the romans ability to keep on fighting with the most dire of wounds!

Or is WAR… WAR anyway you slice it?

WHY would they fight the Romans?

WHY would they fight the Romans?

Is the correct answer.

Marine officer. "We're all republicans, right? Let's take a look at Persia, all their wealth is underground…"

"and in 2000 years they'll be thanking us for doing this."

WHY would they fight the Romans?

Because the local Roman boss-man (governor-equivalent) took exception to those moving gray islands and 600+ green-skinned 'demon' warriors?

They're Romans, not Yanomamö – they've seen ships and people wearing clothes before.

I find it interesting that many have no problem with us reacting in a reasonable manner to fight back against the invaders from space, and not start shacking in our boots. To start thinking about how to overcome thier advantages with ours.

Yet turn right around and deny that the romans could do the same. Dead is dead. It doesnt matter if it is by a .50 sniper rifle or a gladius in the guts. The Romans where a very tough, bloodyminded people. It is not going to be any cake walk.

As far as the skills, yes they have many skills in the marines, but are they going to be the right ones? Yes they will likely have a carpenter or two. But no nail guns. Or nails for that matter. So what they need is a blacksmith to make nails. Only, no steel. So now they need a smelter. And they have to build that from scratch. rather fewer smiths and smelter in a unit I bet.

And, every marine that is doing something other than soldiering, is not soldiering. So your unit eiother doesnt build much, or doesnt have many in the ranks.

as for using vodka to power the tanks, where on earth are they going to get that? They have to make the stills for starters. Then they are going to have to gather tons of raw materials to mark the mash, then go through all the distilling process. And it all takes time, because they cant use thier superior transport to do it, as they will use more fuel to make the new stuff.

As for the machine shops on the ships, great resource, only again they are swiftly going to runout of stuff to machine. High grade steel is just not avoaiable. And I just dont see all the specialist to be able to set up production being available. they will have to make the tools to make the tools to make the machines. And through it all, time is against them.

The thing is, if I can figure this out in about 5 minutes while I slowly type this, so can the bright boys running the MEU. So what is their mission? To have fun trying to see how many romans they can mow down? Or figure out a way for long term survival. And long term involes getting along with the romans, not going out of your way to anger them.

The ancient warriors would teach the modern bums the art of blade fighting with very minimal casualties.

Sorry for all the hype but a Roman soldier could and would chew up a platoon of marines in h2h by himself.

Parzival

The US Armed Forces already inoculate soldiers against the big killers— smallpox, etc.— and that inoculation would stand against the old strains as well as the new.

Smallpox? Er, no.

link

Are previous vaccinations still protective? Routine vaccination of the general population in the United States stopped after 1980. Vaccination of military personnel was discontinued in 1989. Researchers estimate that vaccinated people retain immunity for about 10 years, although the duration has never been fully evaluated. Therefore, the current population in the United States is considered vulnerable to smallpox. About 42% of the US population is younger than 30 years and has never been vaccinated.

Viruses can mutate from generation to generation (That's virus, not human, generations. Some viral 'lives' can be measured in hours). There's no guarantee that any modern immunity would serve against ancient viral strains.

I think I'd have a small bet on the Romans. You never know.

First Afgan War
Little Big Horn
Isandlwanna
Annual

First Afg[h]an War
Little Big Horn
Isandlwanna
Annual

Adowa

The Marine commander would turn quisling, aiding the Proconsul to send the marines one by one to die in the arena as 'barbarians'.

Oh…wait, that was old Star Trek.

-tv

Connard Sage: Smallpox? Er, no.

Au contraire. Smallpox, er, yes.

smallpox.mil

You are confusing civilian vaccination programs with military. The US military vaccinate personnel sent into likely bio-warfare zones against a number of potentially weaponizable contagions, including smallpox. The Marines would be immune to smallpox.

Smallpox, er, maybe. I was vacinated, yes. But never recieved a booster for it, so it probably would not save me. Though it might, because everybody loses effectiveness at a different rate.

Over many years I have been vacinated against a lot of things, but unless I happened to go back to a place where it was possible to catch it, I never got any boosters. And I am guessing the MEU was not given movement orders tio go back to ancient rome, so many of those guys are not going to be current enough to make it. And most likely those are going to among the most senior people, probably the oes you need most.

And dont forget that a great amny ancient diseasees where just called a fever. we have no idea what they where, and if they lasted into the modern era. Most likely many did not. No defenses against them. Then there is the problem ofg malaria.No vacine for that. There is a bunch of nasty pills you can take to keep from catching it, but unless you are deployed to someplace you are possible to catch it, you dont take the pills. Been there done that. And ancient rome had lots of malaria.

So, not al that cut and dried.

Owen

After "Rome Sweet Rome", get ready for "The Guns of the South" by Harry Turtledove, an equally crappy idea that drove itself right off the cliff.

I'm going to start posting my crappy stream-of-conscious fan-fic garbage on reddit too. I need the money.

My money (when they pay me for "Apocalypse Sumeria") is on the marines, because John Cena will most certainly be cast in this as a marine. There's no way he'll be defeated by Ray Liotta.

You are confusing civilian vaccination programs with military.

Are previous vaccinations still protective? Routine vaccination of the general population in the United States stopped after 1980. Vaccination of military personnel was discontinued in 1989. Researchers estimate that vaccinated people retain immunity for about 10 years, although the duration has never been fully evaluated. Therefore, the current population in the United States is considered vulnerable to smallpox. About 42% of the US population is younger than 30 years and has never been vaccinated.

The link you posted appears to be a non-governmental immunisation programme.

Invade Rome, squash Julius, bribe the other commanders, put a squad with every Senator and get yourself declared Emperor :)

You are confusing civilian vaccination programs with military. The US military vaccinate personnel sent into likely bio-warfare zones against a number of potentially weaponizable contagions, including smallpox. The Marines would be immune to smallpox.

No they wouldn't be immune against any viruses regardless of their shots. Their shots are antigens from viruses that are 2000 years in the future. Kindly explain how a 2011 flu shot protects you from the influenza virus in the year 10. Same with smallpox.

It's possible they would be as susceptible as those in the New World of these old Old World diseases.

Wait, they're Yanks aren't they, coupla 'blue on blue' incidents, then the Romans pick off the survivors.

'Semper Fi, sword in the eye, huh. huh. huh.'

John

The scenario doesn't allow any resupply for our approximately 2000 marines and admits that once out of petrol (sorry gas) all vehicle would be useless.

Presumably they also only have the ammo that they carry so they'd need to use it with care and one gone their rifles would be useful only as something to fix a bayonet to. I think our marines might run out of ammo before the Romans run out of people.

Similarly, they would soon be eating Roman food. Wine would be OK and probably safer than the water. I'm not sure how our marines would manage on a diet of cereals, olives, fruit and pulses. No coke, steaks, ribs, burgers etc.

Roman diseases included plague of various kinds, TB, Typhoid, Smallpox, gastroenteritis, malaria and polio to mention a few. I don't know what preventative medicine the USMC routinely applies but in the British forces, personnel who deploy regularly to 'foreign parts' are pretty much protected against 21st century hazards.

Who knows what strains of diseases existed in Roman times to which 21st Century man might be succestible.

Smallpox could be an issue as that was erradicated in 1980 although it still exists potentially as a BW threat but British troops are not routinely protected against BW unless there is a threat. So would our marines be innoculated?

Malaria will also become a threat when our marines run out of anti-malaria tabs.

One thing in their favour is that they will have a better understanding of every day disease prevention and hygiene, but the locals don't and the Roman environment is a bit 'grubby'.

My understanding of the scenario is also that there is no return. I think this will be their principal problem and once the realisation dawns there will be a major and growing morale issue for even the most professional troops.

But, when in Rome as they say. I understand the orgies were pretty good, so its not all bad:-)

Do they have all the Sailors on the ships that ferry the Marines around, in addition to all the supplies on those ships?

Now, I have a good 2000 sailors, equally vaccinated, and pretty well trained to make things happen. The magical words of deck division 'we *acquired* it, sir!' There's your non-combat support types for the infrastructure projects.

And three ships (plus escorts)? I would be very surprised if there were less than three small stills active and in use. Once "you're not going home" sinks in, and the call to make biodiesel goes out, the guys who know how to distill alcohol are going to be busy making a new, rather large still or three.

I still think there is a good chance that the Marines could possibly outrun the news of their arrival, or at least the news that Rome was at war. Again, I'm assuming that the local governor (or whatever title is appropriate) gets stupid and attacks the Marines.

But, when in Rome as they say. I understand the orgies were pretty good, so its not all bad:-)

The MEU doesn't stand a chance.

-(A former Marine)

Who knows what strains of diseases existed in Roman times to which 21st Century man might be succestible

All of them! Good point on the malaria. Forgot about that one.

Smallpox could be an issue as that was erradicated in 1980 although it still exists potentially as a BW threat but British troops are not routinely protected against BW unless there is a threat. So would our marines be innoculated?

To 2000 year old strains of smallpox? I'd like to know how.

40 years later, all the jarheads are elderly or dead. Rome recovers. Rome wins.

I thought many of the old plagues were pretty fixed in structure.

And how many of those nasty old bugs are going to be cilin-resistant? Or resistant to some of the even heavier synthetics that the US carries around?

The real problem will be disease, I'm sure, but I'd bet that a lot of it would simply be prevented by basic hygiene!

And yes, ScottS is right: after the first Roman orgy, the MEU (and their taxi service) would be doomed.

I thought many of the old plagues were pretty fixed in structure.

No, they all mutate. That is why they recur.

And how many of those nasty old bugs are going to be cilin-resistant?

Depends.

Yersinia pestis causes both Black Plague and Bubonic Plague. The latter is the classical form that one reads about in Greek and Roman history. Both these are easily handled by antibiotics. But my guess is that the Marine Medic would choose Ciprofloxacin as his magic bullet. I wouldn't worry about the plague.

Viral diseases and tricky bacterial diseases such as malaria are immune to normal antibiotic treatment. The worry would be malaria (very prominent in Italy at this time), smallpox and influenza. Regardless of inoculations, there would be no protection against the latter two diseases.

Brian Daley "Tapestry of Magic", WWII Panzers vs. basically a Mongol Horde in an alternate dimension. Key point: "modern" armies without logistic tail have very limited duration.

Smallpox is a 50/50. The troops would be immunized to the modern version, but I'm not sure whether immunization would work. However, if I remember the old cowpox discovery, I'm pretty sure that the medical staff in a MEU would know it, as well.

The counter-point to your logistics argument, wballard, is that a MEU brings enough logistics with it for over 30 days of modern-intensity combat. Not 30 days of rations, etc. 30 days of all-out combat. I'm fairly sure that the Marines could ration that out to more than a year, given how much combat there was annually in an ancient army (less than 30 days).

First off they are Americans and Marines By god …Communication and langquge would be no Barrier at all.
The second Priority to killing things would be to make babies and lanquage has never been a hinderance to the American Servicemen focused on a Liberty.
well at least for the first time they really would be the first in and the last out :)

Again on the biodesil. Figure out how many acres of land it takes to make a gallon of the sstuff. Well how many gallons to the acre. but that will be at ancient bushels per acre, which are much lower than modern ones. And then the next problem is still transporting the rqw material to the location of the still.

Sure you can probably produce a lot of juice, but you cant get enough vegitive mater to the still to make it happen. And come to think of it, they are not going to have a large enough supply of yeast to get all the fermintation going. I dont believe that the Navy carries around thousands of pounds of yeast onboard just so they can make an emergency still.

It isnt just the stuff they need, it is the huge amount of infrastructure needed to make the stuff. Just transporting things around is a nightmare with poor roads and animal transportation. Yes Roman had good roads for the time. I bet there are almost no bridges ready to support a single M1 though, the Romans where not informned of the need.

I still have not heard of a single good reason for them to go to war with each other. Both sides are very likely to see the benefits of negotiation.

Owen

I dont believe that the Navy carries around thousands of pounds of yeast onboard just so they can make an emergency still.

The Navy bakes bread for every meal. It's not quite the right yeast, but it will make alcohol in about 3-4 weeks. Then you distill the 'bilge wine'.

The still itself isn't that big. You could actually have one in the back of a hummer, but I'd want a bigger one on the ship.

My assumed reason for violence is the local Roman governor demanding tribute/taxes and killing a couple young Marines 'to send a message.'

the big advantage of the Marines is the knowledge of what is possible to achieve, build, obtain. That is a huge advantage over a population from 2,000 years ago.

The Marines could carve for themselves a nice kingdom with all the benefits they could bring to the population. Roman power being widely based on slavery, this would be an easy point to exploit against them.

We are assuming that the Marines unit would stay with what it has at hand. I believe they would adapt very quickly (remember the ingenuity of POW during WWII while they had almost nothing?)

Last but not least, some of the officers would have good History knowledge and could use it to the Marines advantage.

So several points, really:
2,000 years of human experience and knowledge
understanding of democracy
prior knowledge of History
Firepower (at least for self-defense and "persuasion")

Marines in the Roman empire would definitely be game changers

It would do the boys some good to see what early Christianity was really like.

I still have not heard of a single good reason for them to go to war with each other.

They fight because of the mysterious swirling energy being that feeds on the anger of war – the same one that made Chekov think that he had a dead brother and turned all the phasers into swords…

That energy being is also called "the collective will of wargamers." ;)

I still have not heard of a single good reason for them to go to war with each other. Both sides are very likely to see the benefits of negotiation.

If the Marines (leadership) negotiated, then you'd have Varangian Guards or equivalent, fighting all the Empire's Wars. And they *would* be on the front lines, far, far away from the capital. That kind of destructive power would boggle the mind of the Romans, and they'd rightly be terrified of what would happen in the 'Varangians' decided to become 'Praetorians'.

The way I see it, going to war with Rome is likely to result in less fighting that going to war for Rome.