"Modern Marines vs Imperial Romans...it could happen!" Topic

I'll just post this link and since I don't do Romans or modern Marines I'll just sit back and listen…

link

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Hmmm… wouldn't this basically end up a more expansive, modern version of "The Man Who Would be King"? :P :)

There is an entire sub-reddit setup from the guy that started this story you should check it out

As long as their initial weapons supply load held out, the Marines would simply devastate any Roman attack but later….the Marines would be in trouble.
Long term, the Marines would have to pick up allies, the Roman Empire was a gigantic place.

There is definitely a wee bit difference between the Roman army and the entire Roman Empire. :)

Not to mention being able to actually keep the Battalion cohesively together rather than going native.

If anything, their effect on the political machinations of the Roman world would far out weigh any single event on the battlefield.

There are more details including links to the rough online script version here…
TMP link

Why does this feel like another episode of 'Deadliest Warrior'? :D

Logistics and language would be the killers.

Leaving aside ammunition, once the fuel's gone most of the marines wouldn't even know how to use animal transport, so all their stores would have to be manpacked until/unless they learned how to use mules/oxen/horses.

There'd be no accurate maps, no GPS satellites and living off the land would be interesting, they'd have to send out foraging parties on foot to rob the local farmers (and who would be ambushing who _then_?) They'd have no local money and depending on the season, there may not _be_ much spare food, so they'd have to keep moving just to avoid eating the area bare.

Once the romans work that out, just clear out all the food stocks within a few day's march and wait for the marines to literally starve. (Fabian tactics)

They'd have no idea where the roads or population centers are unless they had contemporary maps of the area, and there'd be two millenia of differences.

And finally, there'd be no-one to talk to. How do you make friends with the natives if you can't talk to them? (counter-arguement: modern spanish speakers might be able to make themselves barely understood)

The smart plan would be to make friends with Rome, not try and destroy it. Shades of Turtledove's 'Lost Legion'.

I disagree with the 'overwhelming numbers' argument. Snipers can take out Tribunes and Centurions(and musicians, the eagle etc.). The Legions' fortified camp would be a mortar magnet. Numbers don't work when there are no officers.
Bullets, batteries, fuel, medicine, MRE's/local food(somewhere they made egyptian beer from a ancient recipe and it tasted like liquid bread) , water, hygiene, diseases that may be extinct nowadays, long-term morale problems, culture clash(after the language problem is settled), fraternisation(check hygiene), yeah..this is a real problem.
And if the MEU has air support? What, a weeks' worth of sorties and that's pushing it.
It would be easier in a fantasy world, some of your squadmates could learn magic.

On overwhelming numbers, the Romans had a track record of being willing and able to raise army after army if they lost a battle, and being highly adaptable.

After the first battle when anyone with a transverse crest fell over dead, they'd stop wearing them.

Close formations are firepower magnets? Disperse, discard the useless shields, advance by rushes and use pila. It might not work but they'd try things and learn by dying.

The fortified camp is a morter magnet? Aggressive patrolling so the marines can't infiltrate the boom-sticks into range at night and digging the legionaires tent into earth bermed pits.

They would not be 'static'.

They'd interrogate prisoners to find out capabilites. Maybe they get someone who knows the formula for gunpowder? (then borrowing from BTRC, maybe you'd see the Ingramus M-X, or at least explosive projectiles for the ballista and onagers)

It's never wise to assume because the ancients didn't know as much that they were _stupid_.

They'd be disruptive, but the wierdly clad barbarian sorcerers would be toast long term unless they made some sort of accomodation.

How much fuel and supplies get transferred back? Could they also have supporting sea and air units and maybe a tanker, pretty please? They could ration stuff for a tad. But wait, … let's assume some of the ships are nuclear powered – the MEU has 20 years to get the replacement fuel. Any laser/beam weapon only needs power, not munitions.

They will have a lot of skillsets – engineers, doctors, etc. Man for man, they are probably fitter and more capable. The Empire probably has at best 300,000 troops. And assume they have comprehensive computer files for researching history, industry and other useful stuff. Biofuel could probably be whipped up to keep the tracks moving.

As our ancient Roman friends said, "I, for one, welcome our new MEU overlords" …

The most likely outcome is not combat but the Roman Emperor offering this fantastic new barbarian tribe Roman Citizenship and a ludicrously large bribe to fight for the Empire.

-Will

They would be wiped out in next to no time in my view.
Firstly diseases. We rely heavily on modern medicines to fight off disease. Without large supplies, they would be open to strains long dead. We live in modern sanatised worlds. They don't.

Secondly, without toys like gps etc they are used too, they would be fairly lost. How many US marines even know the geography of their neighbouring home state, never mind a foriegn country? Without latin/local dialects, they couldn't talk to the locals either.

As for being fitter. The average roman legionaire was a far fitter bloke than you might imagine. They carry armour, they build day and night forts, they walk for many many more miles in a life time than any modern human would. They have no power tools or machines. They do everything by hand/horse/oxen and in the main, physical effort, and they have done that fron the day they were born. Modern humans are not as fit or physically strong as our ancient counterparts I suspect.

The initial wins would be the marines. This might keep people scared and keep forces hesitant for a while. But without modern toys like bio-stills, modern metalurgy etc they could not maintain their kit for any duration.

Also, once the men realise there is not going home. Discipline, and the lack of woman. Lack of a cause to fight for etc.. how are they going to be motivated to stick togather?

But thats just my 2pennies worth.

Logistics, logistics, logistics – you run out of ammo, that nice SAW is just an awkward club

Plus – the Roman Empire at that time had huge bounce-back; as noted, they were rock hard tough plus pretty smart

Now – it seems to me that even a moderately talented MEU commander (and most MEU commanders are way more than moderately talented) is going to figure out that the value of his unit is going to be to enhance Roman power, not to destroy it – for example, this could resolve that testy problem with the Persians quite easily – and, using Marine training and experience, could help to push the frontier in Germany all the way to the Oder

So – I think that the US Eagle could find common ground with the Imperial Eagle

Picking up allies? Certainly I think the modern marines could gain some help from the "indigenous" populous for things such as labor, transportation, food gathering, as well as troops.

I think the Marines could certainly use the Ash Approach…."Listen up you primitive screw-heads…THIS is my BOOMSTICK!".

WOW so many here who don't know anything about the military or for the sake of this discussion the US Marine Corps. Now in the Marine Corps we have tons of young men who know other things besides shooting a rifle. These young men are carpenters, brick layers , mechanics, farmers ect they left their old lives to become Marines so they have a lot to bring to the table that could be traded to the locals for supplies. One of you are mentioned women; if there are girls around Marines will learn how to talk to them and in the end learn the local languages I've seen it happne in a number of countries. Most marines get shots for every thing but being horny when I was in Iraq I got sick a few times but nothing major just Practicing Good Hygiene will go a long ways, as far as being in shape I dug all my own fighting holes filled my own sand bags carried my own gear and even pushed trucks that were supposed to carry me not counting walking countless number of miles! Now I haven't touched on the ships, they are a big deal three or four modern ships in the Navy that is supporting the MEU is a big win. The ships have machine shops that can produce a lot just making things the local could use or help to keep up with some things that would break the MEU might need, now I'm not going as far as saying they could make spare parts for Tanks or aircraft. There are a lot of re-loaders in the marine Corps I'm sure they could come up with smokeless powder to reload the small arms with. The bad thing is there would be no local or national news to broadcast a defeat of one of the legions, I say this because fear can go along way in helping you beat a opponent so if other Romans leaders couldn't see what a M1A2 Abrams could do to a Cohort then you would have to fight a series of battles till the word got out that the new strangers aren't to messed with. As far as the fighting is concerned 81 and 60mm mortars would tear up a Legion forming for battle and the Marines wouldn't even have to show themselves. Marine tanks, LAV's and Amtrac would be hard pressed because of the lack of decent bridges more than roads. Concerning discipline well once the Marines understand they aren't going home and everyone is out to get them then everyone Officers and enlisted men would have to have a sit down and speak frankly about the situation and go from there but in the end you would lose the usual 10 percent as we say in the Corps and the rest of the Marines would carry on. Sorry for the long paragraph I just got back from the street and have tons of real work to do so I rushed into this.

I can't believe this got to a film level. This belongs in the same vein as "What if Napoleon had nuclear weapons?" I weep for Hollywood. Or maybe the audience. Or our future given the fact we can't get any interest in history without vast numbers of marauding rhino cavalry, six-legged elephants and mythical gods more akin to Conan than Caesar.

Howabout two films: One about Rome. One about the Marines. Without the time travel and they don't meet. Whoops I guess that would mean you'd have to have actual stories rather than quick'n'snappy battle scenes.

Okay, barring that, I don't think the arguments give the Romans enough credit. There is little or no mention of the Roman ability to adapt to their foes. Fine, they take it on the chin for a while, then adapt and overcome the opponent or buy his army from under him…but the end result is still the same. Gawd, if anything, this and discipline was the major factor, not numbers.

"Marines are the best warriors ever trained," he says. "But they can't fight an endless wave of soldiers. No one can."
Far be it from me to disagree, yet, one wonders how modern Marines would fare without modern accoutrements. An M1A2 runs out of gas and its a large paperweight and so the same with everything else. Need to cut a tree trunk? Here's a wooden-fram hand saw, no electric assistance. Hand-to-hand training is as heavily trained as ever, but one wonders how they would react in an environment where you don't have one or two close-order encounters – you have twenty or fifty equipped with a blade whose sole purpose was to enviscerate and create the largest possible wound in the shortest amount of effort.

No. Sorry. This has to be joke.

Can someone please just tell a straight-up historical story without the fantasy hyperbole?

come on we all know there is nothing the USMC can't defeat! – well, perhaps the Viet Cong, but that's it. Romans will be no problem at all, even if the marines cannot use their own weapons.

We did beat the VC kicked the crap out of them on more then one occasion but the administration at the time didn't want to win the war, oh sorry Police Action.

I know ;-) – couldn't go into politics of it though….

I can't believe this got to a film level. This belongs in the same vein as "What if Napoleon had nuclear weapons?" I weep for Hollywood. Or maybe the audience. Or our future given the fact we can't get any interest in history without vast numbers of marauding rhino cavalry, six-legged elephants and mythical gods more akin to Conan than Caesar.

Well there is precedence.

imdb.com/title/tt0080736

Can someone please just tell a straight-up historical story without the fantasy hyperbole?

Hollywood can't. 'Real' history is either dull or brutal and bloody. Neither will put bums on seats by themselves.

Irish Marine brings up a good point. The author seems to completely miss on the point of the background, experience and education of each individual marine. Even with a high school education, that's way more than your typical roman legionaire or even a peasant. Many of those skills would certainly help in establishing the marine unit as a superior force in the region in recruiting local forces let alone just the skills to survive and adapt in a more primitive environment.

Futhermore, part of that education would be that the Marines know more about the Romans than the Romans knowing about the Marines.

If anything, there would certainly be some effort within the MEU in maintaining some order within the ranks and prevent ambitious individual marines from wanting to go off and start their own little kingdoms.

I remember seeing an old Japanese flic with Sonny Chiba where some JSDF soldiers find themselves back in medieval Japan and some decided to use their advanced weapons, knowledge and experience to set up their own little empires. Several of them ended up fighting amongst each other and many of the JSDF ended up killing each other in the power struggle.

That reminds me of a Battletech novel, Far Country if I recall and it was not a very popular one because it really didn't fit in with the Battletech universe. Where a Draconis Combine military unit (along with some mercenaries) get stranded on a planet due to a Jump Drive failure. The planet has been colonized by another Draconis Combine force centuries before battlemechs were even invented. However their technology had been all worn out and lost the colony resembled pretty much a medeival japanese society with various shogun warlords fighting amongst each other. The DC soldiers and mercenaries end up getting courted by the various factions for their marvelous technology they brought with them and end up finding themselves fighting against each other.

I think everyone is forgetting the big difference here— science.

The Marine officer corps understands it.

The Romans don't even have a concept of it. Beyond basic (if impressive) brute force engineering, as far as the Romans are concerned (particularly the average legionnaire), they have no knowledge at all of chemistry, electricity, medicine, radio, etc., etc.. To the Romans, the marines' weaponry and technological devices would appear to be the stuff of gods or devils— and the Romans very much believed in both, especially the soldiery. Even the must intellectually challenged marine has a better education and understanding of science and technology than virtually any Roman soldier, and a lot less susceptibility to superstition. Rumors of sorcery would have the basic Roman grunts quaking in their sandals— one loud BOOM with fire and smoke, and they'd beat feet for the rear, discipline or no discipline— and the decurions, tribunes, and legate would be the first ones to run. You do not fight the gods.

So initially, the Marines win out. The question becomes staying power. Can the USMC remain on top after the initial scattering? Can they prevent widespread panic and get the populace on their side? And how do they deal with other logistical elements?

As regards to language, anyone can learn Latin. Heck, grunts spoke it back then, grunts can learn to speak it now. One cute Roman chick will start the ball rolling. So that's hardly a barrier worth considering. As the marines will probably have at least one officer (maybe even a priest) who understands Latin, rudimentary classes can be set up on the spot, with native speakers brought in to speed things up (the cuter, the quicker).

Diseases are not the issue some think. The US Armed Forces already inoculate soldiers against the big killers— smallpox, etc.— and that inoculation would stand against the old strains as well as the new. As for the rare illness that got through, diseases that existed in ancient times would have absolutely zero resistance to basic modern antibiotics. At the very least, penicillin is not all that hard to produce— any decent marine chemist could brew up batches as needed. The disease threat is not to the marines, but to the Romans, who would have zero immunity to any "mild" (to us) future strains the marines showed up with.

Food is a biggie, but again, the marines would know advance agricultural techniques and could easily start farms. Heck, they'd out produce Rome in a heartbeat, strictly on the basis of being able to make a decent plow!

Transportation— come on, people, it's not that hard to ride a horse. Children do it for fun. And there will be plenty of country marines with horse knowledge to teach city marines how it's done. Plus, the marines would make stirrups— the Romans would be agog at what a cobbled-up marine cavalry could do. As for that, how does everyone think the Romans got from place to place? They marched. Guess what? Marines march too. Feet are feet, legs are legs, now as then. Hup to, soldier! A-left, right, left…

As for tanks running out of gas, yes, eventually. But there's always bio-diesel, which anyone can cook up. (And I suspect that USMC vehicles are largely diesel devices.) Eventually, the marines might even figure out how to drill for the real thing. You can do it with 19th century tech, after all. Wood, metal, some machine work, pick a spot you know has the stuff (say, where you saw an oil rig in modern Iraq), and drill, baby, drill.

Getting lost? Oh please. Marines know basic orienteering, have compasses and modern maps. Even a modern map, as off due to geologic changes as it might be, would be far superior to any map produced by the ancients. And it's not that hard to whip up a sextant and do the math. Marines know longitude, latitude, algebra, trigonometry, have superior compasses, and accurate timepieces (and could build a decent clock if necessary)— the Romans would be stunned at the marines' ability to find their way around. Marines don't need no stinkin' GPS.

In the short run, the USMC would put a whuppin' on the Roman legions, and in the long run, settle down to being a new power with ideas that reshape the time— and the Romans would adapt and embrace that as much as the other way around.

Besides, I have a feeling the ancient Romans would really go for American football— and the Marines would have a pick-up league set up in no time.

EDIT: Cmdr Kiley beat me to part of my punch.

Besides, I have a feeling the ancient Romans would really go for American football

oh come on, the Romans were civilised ;-)

I have to agree with Goose666, Rome would win, and the Marines would lose; apart from those who collaborated and Rome would reward them well.

"We came, we saw, we conqured!" Vs. "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome!"

BTW, will the movie star R. Lee Ermey?

I raised this on the other thread but what about the impact on the individuals? A few things to consider:

1. The marines would be out of their time with no chance of seeing their families, loved ones, parents, hometown, or anything else again. My guess is they would simply try to stay alive long enough to figure out how to get home instead of trying to overthrow the local politicians.

2. Yes they could kill thousands upon thousands of what would be, to them, almost unarmed opponents but could they really kill thousands upon thousands of what would be, to them, almost unarmed opponents? Technically they could mow down a cohort at 300 yards with a 50cal but how many of our marines could shoot down 800 men armed with carving knoves three football fields away? Romans of the time thought nothing of butchering men, women, children, babies, animals, in short, anything. As did their opponents. But that isn't how we fight, or think, today. Would they slaughter their wounded, as the Romans most likely would? Or sell their prisoners as the Romans would? Is the modern soldier culturally adapted for the slaughter and brutality that his technology would afford him, and his opponents nmake necessary?

3. Would they be bringing lawyers with them to define the rules of engagemnet? If so I am betting on the Romans

Rules of Engagement come ultimately from civilian politicians who are concerned about political ramifications, PR, and the public eye. They're not included in this scenario,so RoE will be coming from the MEF Commander. That alone could be considered a win-win for the Marines.

Throughout history, Marines have faced opponents who have butchered men, women, childern, babies, animals,etc. If they haven't expereince it first hand they've either been exposed to from someone who has or from history or training.

jaxenro, let tell you something in Iraq there have been more than one occasion where the younger Marines would have taken a torch to a town if it hadn't been for cooler heads in charge, these feelings of rage only happened after a IED cut down several Marines and the civis in the area clapped or whistled afterwards so young Marines unfortunately could be brought to perform barbaric actions, I doubt they would kill their own wounded but enemy!?

I am interested in the US Marine Corps.

I am interested in the Roman Empire.

I am not at all interested in some half-baked fantasy where they meet and squabble.

I agree Howard. I just bought a Roman/celt army of over 500 figures and have no intention of them mixing it up with my 28mm US Marines.

What wopuld happen comes down to whether the Marines are sure they can get back to their own time, or not. If not, their main issue would be survival (what other motivation would they have?). In such a case, becoming very well-paid mercenaries and/or technical advisors to the Romans is the only thing that makes sense.
It is also the key to the movie's plot. What will the screenwriters and producer use as the Marines "motivation" to take on the Romans? "Freedom"? Whose freedom? Why?
Suspension of disbelief is important even in fantasy stories.

Irish Marine

I don't doubt what you say but could they cut down 200,000 or so enemy one after the other? What is being described is more akin to a firinig squad writ large then a battle situation. Knowing that without closing the Romans don't present a threat and yet not being able to allow them to close could 2,000 + marines simply shoot down 40,000 plus people?

I think any people can be brought or pushed to perform "barbaric" acts but our time is different. The day after Cannae Hinnibals army waded through and butchered how many defensless Romans on the ground, and the Romans would have done the same. With a few exceptions our modern marines don't act that way.

I think when you factor in that they would be away from their time, never to return home, and forced to kill on a scale far in excess of anything they are prepared for I would worry more about their mental health then their physical health. How many people can you kill before battle fatigue sets in? How long can you go realizing there would never be an end to it? You couldn't "win" and go home because home is 2,000 years in the future.

This isn't a knock on the current US marines, the concept itself is stupid. Both the Roman legion and the US Marine Corps are superbly adapted for their time and conditions and are both mentally and physically prepared for that time but not others.

Jaxenro-
Now you've got the makings of good "hard" sci-fi, and an interesting movie. But don't count on the moviemakers to touch on the issues you raise.

The religious implications would be interesting. How many marines would have bibles, for example? How many would want to go to Jerusalem? Talk about messing up a timeline.

The psychological implications of no more families would be dramatic.

Why side with Rome? Why not ally with German tribes?

Someone has to have some decent phone apps that would help them. ;-)

In the end, it sounds like a movie my kids would create. All it needs are some ninjas to be complete.

BTW do MEUs have nukes?

What would happen if the Romans managed to capture a Marine clerk-typist or whatever they call them these days?

/I need to dig out my copy of L. Sprague DeCamp's Lest Darkness Falls.

Agent-
Well, that IS a good question. Why ally with the Germans?
Money? No. Clean, running water? No. Masonry homes? No.
Women? Maybe (but what would German women look like in ancient times?).

The MEU as a whole would not have nukes but the MARG might depends what ships are attached.

The MEU as a whole would not have nukes but the MARG(Marine
Amphibious Ready Group) might depends what ships are attached.

Why ally with the Germans?

Beer? didn't the Germans drink beer?

Beer? Sure, but the Marines could get beer from the "civilized" Germans on the Roman side of the border.

One word :

OIL

Due to a lack of it, Rome wins. The end.

One word :

OIL

Due to a lack of it, Rome wins. The end.

One word: Bio-diesel.

The M1A1 Abrams tank can run on multiple types of fuel, including diesel. A substitute for motor oil can be produced from vegetable oil. Petroleum is not necessary.

So the Marines won't necessarily "run out of gas."

Ammunition is far more of a problem than fuel.

Bio-diesel in the 1st Century? Vegetable oil in a tank?
Sure, but the processing needed for these items is much more complicated than just pouring vodka in the gas tank and olive oil in the crank case.

They could always get like 400 slaves to pull the tank into place, like a big piece of arty.

Then of course, genealogically speaking, the firefight goes on, death of which are the marines great great…. grandfathers, and poof, marines never existed, disappear.

For what it's worth

Rule No. 1 of time travel, never screw with the past :)

"We came, we saw, we conqured!" Vs. "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome!"

BTW, will the movie star R. Lee Ermey?

It better!

Bio-diesel in the 1st Century? Vegetable oil in a tank?
Sure, but the processing needed for these items is much more complicated than just pouring vodka in the gas tank and olive oil in the crank case.

You're not quite right. You also need lye and some kind of desiccant. Vodka and olive oil are the two main ingredients to make biodiesel, and anything in the US inventory will run on it. Navy ships have more desiccant onboard than you can imagine, and it's not consumed in the process, anyway. Just heat it to release the water.

Motor oil would be a bit more complex, though.

I honestly thing the biggest problem would be the speed the Marines can advance compared to the Romans. I honestly think that the Marines could advance faster than the news of the destruction of any given legion. How many standing legions did Rome have, and where were they garrisoned?

The range of an 81mm mortar is over 5000m. The Romans would have to send their patrols a long way out to avoid getting their night camps flattened by mortars, let alone 155s. And a current-day MEU would be used to using mules for gear transport, at least all the Afghanistan vets would be.

They could always get like 400 slaves to pull the tank into place, like a big piece of arty.

The USMC, proudly upholding slavery since 1865.

Or what if the Romans simply lined up 2,000 non combatants (women and children captives) before the legion? Would the marines shoot through them as easily as shields and armor?

Or began crucifying the children of their new allies before their camp unless they surrendered? (Assuming the marines made allies for food and logistical support)

Or began tossing the dismembered bodies and heads of captured soldiers into camp?

Remember this is the group (Romans) that decimated their own men for cowardice and crucified every man, woman, and child captured in the Spartacus rebellion. They hadn't lost anything 50 years later.

When I was in Somalia we watched from about 50 yards away the Mullah's carry out punishment against thieves by chopping off their left hands, I watched it happen and at the time didn't believe it was happening but they did it, and I sorry to say we had to watch a young girl get gang raped just outside the Embassy and our Officers and the State Deparment people would not let us intervene. So Marines will follow orders. And for the record I'm amshamed we didn't do anything.