"KStN 445 anyone?" Topic

Good evening all,

further to my post a couple of months ago concerning Sturmgeschutz Abteilung 185 (TO&E for June 1941), to which I received some really useful replies, I seem to have come to a dead end in my research, and would be grateful if anyone could provide the answers to the following questions:

1. Can anyone provide a link to a listing of KStN 445?

I've been searching for weeks now, and while many internet forums/sites mention it, the complete listing remains elusive. I'm content that each battery for 185 consisted of 6 StuG III, but it's the other support elements of the battalion that I'm interested in.

2. Apparently, the commander of 185 provided a report covering the period Jun-Dec '41, which stated that the battalion had not had time to reorganise under KStN 446, and so each battery had the following:
161 men,
6 Sturmgeschütz,
3 armoured command vehicles (SdKfz.253),
6 ammunition half-tracks (3 x SdKfz.252 and 3 x SdKfz.10),
3 x 3-ton half-tracks for replacement crews,
1 x 1-ton signals half-track,
eight cars,
14 trucks,
13 motorcycles of which 2 had sidecars.
Two of the batteries were organized as three platoons each with two Sturmgeschütz, the third battery as two platoons each with three Sturmgeschütz.

Anybody know what the 3-ton and 1-ton half-tracks are that are being referred to? Those weights seem a little light to me…e.g. a SdKfz 251/1 weighs in at approx 7 tons! I've not seen the original report (in German), so is it possible that something has been lost in translation, and the Commander is referring to trucks?

Any help on the above would be much appreciated.

Kind regards,

C E

Those are un-armoured half tracks more like trucks really. Forget who made them. I believe production ceased early to focus on 251 series. The early SWS was un-armoured. Before the war, the fad was converting trucks to half tracks by changing the running gear in the rear. It allowed companies to produce a quick half track for sale to militaries. There are also 1.5 and 3 ton Opel Blitz half track versions.

Here is the KSTN pictorially:

link

Canuckistan,

thanks for the lead on the trucks being converted.

Regarding the link, that particular site is good for many of the KStNs, but unfortunately 445 isn't one of them.

C E

I'm afraid you're out of luck re KStN 445, which the Tessin list on Leo Niehorster's site dates to 01/11/39. There really aren't many KStN from the early war period left, and 445 isn't among them I believe.

It's noted that 445 was superseded by 446 from 1941, and the earliest 446 available is from 01/11/41, two years on from 445. Tessin notes a 446 from 01/05/41, which would likely be the one the report said hadn't been implemented.

I'm pretty sure you're familiar with the KStN site of Christoph Awender, if not this is the Nov41 table –

link

You can reverse engineer some details, but not all (I've expended a few brain cells on the Schutzen for example), and at least you've got a target figure to work to.

Gary

Could be the SdKfz 11 was the 3-ton and the SdKfz 10 the 1.5 ton?

OK so they weighed 7-ton and 5-ton respectively but the 11 was designed to pull 3 tons so was sometimes referred to as a 3-ton halftrack. No idea if this is correct for your unit though.

Ohhh yeah, there was a FORD plant in Germany. In the thirties, Canada tested a FORD 2.5 ton truck as an artillery primer mover.

@ Ditto:
yes, I believe that something has been lost in translation there, too…

Looking at the figures for KStN 446, the whole battalion had between 120-130 men (rough count in my head), with 12 men for each of the three Zugs. I think that it's a fair assumption – although I'm happy to be corrected – that as the changes between 445 and 446 were implemented, there would have been a streamlining of manpower, so a downsizing from approx. 160 to approx. 120 would be reasonable.
Given that the KStN were only 'paper' strengths, and actual returns for any given time were different, I think that the 161 men that the commander was referring to was for the whole battalion.

@Gary:
I've been fearing the worst, and I think you are correct (I live in hope, though!).
As you say, a bit of reverse engineering is required, along with some 'guesstimates', and hopefully I'll get somewhere near the truth

Has anybody else composed a TO&E for one of these units for 1941? I'm open to suggestions

Thanks for all the replies so far.

C E

Tim, part of the reason for the high personnel strength may be down to these being Artillery rather than Armoured units. They were guns on tracks rather than tanks, and had an arty like train in support. I'm sure a Panzer unit based on six AFVs would've come in a little lighter in terms of personnel and support vehicles, but probably not too much!

The concentration of men and machines in the various support echelons of German units of the time is quite impressive. Off the top of my head, from what KStN I've seen, I don't think you notice a deliberate paring back of numbers in Nov41, but more later on.

Gary

We artillery guys need more men for the constant runs for coffee! We do not have the luxury of a coffee maker in the turret

This topic picqued my interest to get an idea of the strength of the Arty Stug Bn, rather than the Panzer type. Farthest I can go back using the authorised strengths is Nov/Dec 1942 -

Bn Staff; 5 officers, 19 men (1 Stug)
Staff Bty; 7 officers, 91 men
Three Btys (each); 6 officers, 142 men (10 Stug)

Total strength 566 all ranks; 30 officers, 536 men (31 Stug)

There were seemingly two organisations in use, the other one is a bit of a mish-mash of tables and dates (staff Bty is Apr43, gun Bty Nov41), but looks to have been -

Bn Staff; 5 officers, 19 men (1 Stug)
Staff Bty; 7 officers, 77 men
Three Btys (each); 6 officers, 120 men (7 Stug)

Total strength 486 all ranks; 30 officers, 456 men (22 Stug)

If the Btys were increased to 10 Stug, they simply added 12 men and three vehicles each, making 522 all ranks and 31 Stug.

No mention of coffee equipment on the tables I've got…

Gary

@Gary, Tim:

Correction to my last…it should have read "whole battery" vice "whole battalion"…so approx. 120 x 3 batteries = 360, bearing in mind that there were initially only 6 StuGs per battery.
If you then add in the battalion staff, etc. the figures come out in the same ballpark area as that Gary provided.

That will teach me to do figures in my head

C E

It'll teach me to trust German totals with a first glance too! The 6/142 man Bty was only for Indep Btys; when they were in a Bn, Maint & Rations were reduced, giving 5 Officers, 134 men, making a Bn 27 Officers, 512 men (539 all ranks). Same deductions for the second type Bn, (1 officer, 6 men), making 27 officers, 438 men, 465 all ranks.

By comparison, a Panzer Assault Gun Bn of the same period mustered 571 all ranks to run 45 Stugs and three PzIII command vehicles.

Gary

part of the reason for the high personnel strength may be down to these being Artillery rather than Armoured units. They were guns on tracks rather than tanks, and had an arty like train in support.

For comparison, a British field artillery battery had around 200 men in total, with the main armament consisting of eight 25 pounders.

To echo the comments above, these were similar to artillery batteries, with correspodningly vast amounts of personnel and transport.

Stug units used as ersatz tanks were obviously manned to a somewhat lighter scale (or rather, all the support elements held at battery level in the Stug Bns were at regiemtnal/divisional level in the Panzer Divs).

The Panzer Assault battalions would have the escort company as well?

No, the Escort Bty was unique to the Assault Artillery, and not found with the Panzer Assault Gun Bn, so they'd have to make do with PzGrens. From googling around a while back I got the impression there were very few Escort Btys formed, literally fingers of one hand numbers.

Gary

If you look at the seven-gun version of late 1941, those Btys in Bns had 5 officers, 112 men (with an increment of 1 officer and 8 men (not 6 as I'd posted above) for an Indep Bty).

HQ had a command det with a single Stug and a Kfz15 radio car, then a Bty Tp under a second officer with two Kfz15 radio cars and four m/cs; total 2 officers, 16 men. That's a more 'artillery like' concentration of radio pers than you'd find in a Panzer of atk unit with similar vehicles.

The Firing Bty had three Pls, each of two Stugs. The Pl was only 12 men, with two Stug crews, two men for the SdKfz 250/6 ammo carrier, plus an NCO and rider on a m/c combination. My KStN copy has some indistinct scribble that seems to delete the rider from the combi, and if I squint might say the 250 could be substituted with a lorry.

So that accounts for 54 men in the HQ and firing elements of the Bty. Then those German trains come into play…

The Repair Det is 14 men, which is sizeable for seven guns, and they only had two workshop vehicles. Given the Btys were likely to operate over quite an area in inf sp, a few extra mechanics could be a useful outlay in keeping vehicles working when Bn was too distant. If the Bty was Indep, they added an officer and 6 men, with a SdKfz9 halftrack and recovery trailer.

Train I is all the admin types (19 men!) and Train II is yet more admin types (16 men), but does includes 10 lorries for supplies and a two-man AA det. Also under Train II are the replacement crews, 12 men, which includes two relief Stug crews and also spare lorry drivers. Then there's the Baggage Train who are…more admin types (4 men).

Relief crews and maintenance were essentials for an armd unit, no matter which branch, so you might argue about 80 men were in roles with a direct impact on the combat ability of the Bty. That does leave though another 40 or so who could probably have been cut back to half that number. Obviously the Germans didn't have a General McNair equivalent arguing for the maximum bang for his buck in terms of personnel required!

The Germans did definitely pare things back later on though, the Jun44 Assault Gun Bde was only 444 all ranks with 31-guns, while a 45-gun unit was roughly the same strength as the 539 in the previous establishment for 31-guns.

Gary

@Gary:
Excellent breakdown…thanks for that.

C E

The Repair Det is 14 men, which is sizeable for seven guns, and they only had two workshop vehicles.

Considering the reputation for reliability some of the German vehicles had, this is probably not too many. Never mind needing to serve all of those half-tracks, motorcycle and trucks.

and a two-man AA det

Armed with a machinegun on AA-mount, I presume?

Yep, a twin LMG set-up on a car (Kfz4).

"The Repair Det is 14 men, which is sizeable for seven guns, and they only had two workshop vehicles."

That is quite right, radio tech, mechanic, and weapons tech with 2 workshops and drivers and tech assistants.