"Flaming Arrows: Real or Hollywood?" Topic

It seems that every 'ancient' movie coming out of Hollywood has to have a hoard of archers loosing (firing :P) flaming arrows on their foes. The scene in Gladiator was breath taking, but...

I've never read any historical account where flaming arrows were used. Nothing from the US Indian Wars, nothing from the Middle Ages, and nothing from the Classical Period.

Nothing at all.

Am I missing something or is this just a case of Hollywood wanting firey visuals?

It's just that it looks SOOOOO cool (to the historically-illiterate, i.e., 99% of the movie autdience).

My favorite (well, one of my favorite) Far Side cartoons -- two cowboys taking cover behind a wagon with a flaming arrow stuck in it ... one says to the other "Hey, they're setting their arrows on fire! Are they allowed to do that?"

Rules lawyers, circa 1876.

Horrywood!

I just finished reading the book "GREEK FIRE, POISON ARROWS & SCORPION BOMBS" by Adrienne Mayor. This work is a real tour de force of the use of biological and chemical weapons by ancient cultures. Flaming arrows as incendiary weapons were well covered. The author provides excellent documentation of her sources and explains things very well (if somewhat repeatedly). She even discusses that scene in Gladiators and how it is very loosely based on actual weapon types used by the Romans. She also points out the greatest use of flaming arrows by Romans undoubtedly was in "recreations" of famous battles for arena spectaculars (Gladiator is over the top while still maintains a kernel of truth).

A variety of materials were used for flaming arrows. An early and oft used method was melted pitch poured on an arrow head, allowed to harden, and then ignited when needed. There were several types of incendiary weapons, especially in areas where crude oil leaked to the surface and pooled. A crude version of napalm existed and was used during sieges (and one such use was often recreated in the Roman arena as the "special effects" were real crowd pleasers).

I'm just reading Ms. Mayor's book myself and I would add that there were several surprises for me (I'm only now of the chapter on fire weapons). Apparently not just Indians used poison arrows but also Scythians and even Gauls and Germans. The Scythians aren't too surprising but the Gauls & Germans weren't exactly renowned for their archery.

Very good read so far and the redundancy would make is easier to broswe chapters rather than read straight through.

It's hollywwod wanting firey visuals. It goes no deeper than that. Fire weapons WERE used, but they were exceptional uses rather than the rule. Hollywood is far too eager to make the "fire fusilade" look a standard every battle routine...

My favorite is from TIMELINE. The is a night time assault on a castle and each side is sending up waves of flaming arrows. Then, during a lull, the chief villain announces to his cronies that he has a secret weapon to use on the attackers. He orders 'NIGHT ARROWS!!' And his archers shoot--- regular non flaming arrows. Since the attackers can't see them, they suffer heavy casulaties and pull back.

A cry of 'night arrows' is usually worth a laugh amongst my gaming buddies.

Night arrows? Was this the first "stealth weapon"? :)

Flaming arrows during sieges, yes. Not during open field fights, but then hollywood needs something to make up for the lack of explosions.

I remember the siege scene in "Prince of Foxes", about the Italian Renaissance. It was OK, though the besieger's catapults seemed to be automatic weapons. Amazing amounts of flaming stuff were in the air at one time. And at the end of "The Warlord", that mobile catapult the Normans were dragging around also had a flaming projectile.

Ha maybe that guy was joking too...in response to highly visible flaming arrows which allow you time for cover.

Hi

And doing the "flaming arrow" bit as described above really really really reduces the range and ruins your accuracy. IF you used them you wouldneed to have something for your archers to hide behind. A "fire arrow" weighs half again more than a broad head meaning you are CLOSE. With a longbow of 70# weight, we are talking 60yds.
Given the usual medieval peasant short bow... 20! This would mean that while you were lighting the thing, a guy standing there as your target could run forward and smite you hip and thigh with his sword.

As for poisoned arrows. I have not read anyone actually examining a skyth or anyone else's arrow with an identifiable poison on it. Willing to be wrong and have someone point me to a source. You gotta remember, these are intrisiclly dirty. Bouncing around in a leather and wood case for weeks, warm and moist, ideal for bacilla to breed. A septic wound would be a probable result and not need a special coating.

R

Fire arrows are used by Hollywood for two reasons. One, it gives nice explosions for the audience to get excited about. Two, it enables the audience to actually "see" the arrows fly across the screen.

There are some surviving fire arrows, or parts thereof, and other 'evidence'/

There is at least one Roman 'fire arrow head' - it is a socketed head made of 3 bars welded togther to form the socket and a simple point with bars being spread to hold 'something'. Possibly had some rag soaked in a flammable liquid - IIRC it came from an eastern site.

There are a number of surviving Mediaeval/Rennaisance complete and partial incendiary projectiles - post gunpowder - to be shot from a crossbow or arquebus. They have a big iron point with a 'turnip' shaped waxed cloth ball wrapped around them. The ball has 2 or more fuzes sticking out, and contains low grade gunpowder mixed with bits of resin and pitch/asphalt - lit the blue tockpaper and fire - the fizes burnt inside, ignited the powder which produced jets of flame and bits of sticky burning stuff all shooting at the intended target.

From the mid and far East, there are the pottery-jar-full-of-happiness type, for use with a ballista or trebuchet, filled with crude petroleum/gun powder or other 'chemical' agents - the Chinese used Arsenic as it made a better 'kaboom'.

In manuscripts there are pictures of various incendiary projectiles from the East, and at least on 'Arab' archery manual which has a couple of ways to set fire to targets with either naptha or red hot iron arrow heads. The naptha methods would be very 'Hollywood' - shooting either a naptha filled egg at the target to light later, or shooting a red hot iron pellet thru' the egg to give a short range 'flame thrower' effect.

Rocky - WOO HOO!!!

You're the only other person I've ever heard use the term "Smite them hip and thigh" in casual conversation!

You da MAN!

If I remember correctly, at the end of Sun Tzu's classical Art of War there is a chapter dedicated to the use of fire. One of the techniques mentioned for setting enemy camp on fire was fire arrows.

It is several years since I last read it, so I cannot remember details.

Griefbringer

You are correct about Sun Tzu's Art of War. One of my favorites. Fire arrows were very real and infact I have used some my self with my taditonal recurve. They could be a devastating weapon when used correctly.

Flaming arrows? Most definately they were used. Tactically they would be a great advantage. Roofs of that period were most often made of thach, or straw. You toss a match onto a pile of straw its going to go up pretty quick. Plus they would have a psychological effect on the troops being fired on. Ive heard of them, in terms of what they were made of, ranging from straw wrapped around the arrowhead to a cloth dipped in pitch. I doubt the tips were DIPPED in pitch because thats not alot of fuel for a fire to burn. Someone mentioned a reduction of accuracy, that was probably true. An arrow is an extremely finely balanced object and any deviation of weight throws the whole flight path off. I remember talking to a professor of Greco-Roman studies and he said that one of the problems was that the archers would have to fire the arrows at an angle that was so close to vertical that the wind would sometimes blow the arrows backwards and down on thier own heads or behind them.

As far as Hollywood taking an artistic liscense with fire arrows, actually they've been fairly accurate. Timeline was a little suspect, fire wasnt generally employed to any huge degree against a stone fortress. If it was, it was in the hopes that it would hit SOMETHING wood and start a fire.

Poison arrows, HIGHLY unlikely on a large scale. The time and effort it would take to refine a poisonous substance and then preserve it untill the arrow lodged in skin is huge. Youd have to figgure out a way to keep the archers from accidentally stabbing eachother or rubbing the poison off on thier own skin by accident and ingesting it. Plus about 60% of all arrows fired in a volley hit ither the ground or a shield or armor. Very few arrows actually hit flesh. Usually a man would be hit with one or two arrows, sometimes three, maybe four, but more than that was unusual. So if, say 500 archers fired at a thousand men, about 40-50 men would die, 80-90 wounded but not mortally. Poison was probably employed, but on a more individual basis, like an assasin.

The "night arrow" thing is a little suspect as well. You cant paint arrows, the extra weight throws off the balance, (And yes the weight of a thin coat of paint does make a difference), and if the feathers are painted, the individual threads of the feather stick together and it doesnt fly. So the night arrow thing...highly unlikely. A regular arrow would be tough to spot during the night, but no matter the color, the sound is what gives an arrow away. Some arrows make the characteristic whistling noise. But all arrows make a sound traveling through the air. The wooden shaft vibrates as it travels and produces a sound. 500 or so arrows traveling at you WILL make noise.

As for poisoned arrows, the early slavs reportedly used them.

Poisoned arrows dont make sense on a large scale. We can make poisons today cheaply, easily, and in large quantities. But back then, they didnt have that kind of technology. Poisons could be manufactured, but not in large quantities or for a price that was economically sound.

In the movie Scorpion King, Mehmnahn poisoned an arrow with scorpion toxin. In the basin he made the poison, there were...I think 4 or 5 dead scorpions with thier tails crushed to make enough toxin to coat the arrowhead. Thats ONE arrow.

Its possible that theres some other natural and readily avalile substance that could act as a poison in Europe, but I highly doubt that it was ever used on a large scale.

There ARE reports of archers sometimes rubbing thier arrowheads in crap to encourage infection and disease. Sometimes blood from a plauge victim could also substitute. But this was rarely done.

As I said, it just wouldnt be economical. It would cost alot of money and most of the arrows wouldnt even hit a target. So it would be money wasted.

I believe the French accused the British of using poisoned arrows in the 100 Year's War; there's a suggestion that a copper compound used as a glue to fix the arrowhead to the arrow (IIRC), was poisonous. There might be some truth in it... I wonder if the choice of the particular glue was deliberate?

Hi

given the septic conditions...all arrows are "poisonous". No one preps their broadheads in autoclaves!

I belive, as a livelong archer, that most poison arrows are merely reported "warcrimes" for propaganda purposes. The other side, the "bad guys" always kill the children and use evil magic, and evil weapons, the "good guys" never report that THEY used poison anything.

R

During my research on the Muskogee (Creek) Indians who used wood palisades similar to the Eastern Woodland tribes, there were a number of entries on the attacks on fortified towns. The use of flaming arrows is not a tactic. Seiges between tribes would last weeks based on food supplies. The main tactic was to rush the walls and gain control of the firing spaces (crooked logs) so that clear firing lanes could be established inside the fort. Once control of the wall was established then the town fell.

The use of poisoned arrows is common with a lot of Eastern and Western tribes. All soaked arrows for days in venom or livers. The Plataeu tribes used a very venomous mix by tying a rattler to a stake and having it bite a piece of liver. After soaking the arrows dried with reported a very toxic coat on the arrows.

Fire arrows were a favored ship to ship weapon.