"Wargaming and the Swastika? " Topic

The rising sun is the Naval Ensign of Japan. It's still in use by the Maritime Self Defense Forces (popularly, but illegally, referred to as the Japanese Navy).

And the real difference is that the Rising Sun is not banned in half of Europe while the swastika is.

Actually, for the OT, the real difference is how many customers you might lose – few I suspect. As for what is the law in Europe – if the Europeans could manage their own affairs, we would not be having this discussion.

" if the Europeans could manage their own affairs"

If Europeans could manage their own affairs we would not have had 2,500 years worth of historical wargaming scenarios.

Martin – someone has to benefit from political incompetence. After all, absent the confederation of the Rhine, the French Napoleonics are sooooo booooring!

And where would we be if the Turks had been able to manage Egypt sensibly as a staging post to India?

"Our best protection against Nazism, or the next group horror invented by good thinking people, is an open society in which people poncing around in gay boy black suits with shiny boots and swastikas are there for the world to see, criticise, and preferably ridicule. A strong constitution helps too."

Amen to that. I never quite understood the fan boy obsession with what were really a bunch of dysfunctional big time losers!

Coming back even later, a couple of thoughts more.

Grizzlymc, while in the main I agree with your points, you seem a little undereducated in some areas (Polish history in WWII).

I think your no. 2 response is fairly good. Clinton bombs Serbs and dissembles as to the magnitude of the massacres in Rwanda until it is too late. Darfur is regrettable, can't get involved. Can't expect more from Africans, can't allow Europeans to act that way.

Number4, somewhat agree. Glanced through John Ringo's – 'Watch on the Rhine' a while back. Was rather put off by his positing that to get a tough cadre for earth's defense that the best thing to do would be to rejuvenate a bunch of old SS troopers. Not because they would be 'evil,' but that there were better soldiers.

I think you missed a point in Vacht am Rhine. It's not the the SS vets were the best, it's that they were the only resource remaining when the Posleen dropped on Poland and Germany. And since they were so maligned by the German nation, they were to be utterly destroyed during the fighting.

And to Ringo's credit, that book was only canonically checked by him. All the nazi-love is from Tom Kratmann.

Goragrad

I will stick weith my story till someone refutes it:

The Poles were happy to piuck crumbs off Hitler's table in 1938;
They were less happy when they became his next victim;
They fought for about a month;
It was convenient propaganda to create the illusion of a broad allied coalition during the war, perpetuating it today is sheer laziness.

I doubt most ordinary people really care one way or the other, I don't.

"The Poles were happy to piuck crumbs off Hitler's table in 1938"

Yes, among others. Wouldn't you??

"They were less happy when they became his next victim"

No, they weren't. Would you be??

"They fought for about a month"

Yes, and??

"It was convenient propaganda to create the illusion of a broad allied coalition during the war, perpetuating it today is sheer laziness"

War <=> progaganda

Yes, among others. Wouldn't you??

A brief list of these "others" would be most enlightening.

Hmm, Hungary is only other one i see. I thought Rumania did a little land grabbing too…

But that doesn't my first question less valid: wouldn't you too if you were Poland or Hungary in 1938 and you could some territorial expansion ??

So when are red stars, hammers and sickles, pirate flags, the Confederate flag, Turkish flags, Roman SPQR symbols, and every other symbol of a repressive and/or murderous group going to be banned? And when they are, where does the line get drawn?

As you ponder that for a moment, consider this. If you attempt to ban and cover up such things you render them both more attractive and deny education on what happened to a portion of the population. Does that really help?

Freedom of expression by definition allows the freedom to espouse ideas that are total garbage. However, banning and denying ideas fails the honesty test. History can only teach when it is recognized.

Jeroen

There are two ways to settle territorial disputes – if you lend respectability to the "Might is Right" approach, then you should not whine for 70 years when it is used on you.

A nation which fought on the allies side for 30 days, because its partner in crime stabbed it in the back, has hardly participated in a war against Nazi adventurism. Even the Russians, after a dalliance with Hitler, managedf to put in nearly 4 years.

War = Propoganda – but 70 years later one would have thought that the war bit was over.

Wonderfully put Omemin

A nation which fought on the allies side for 30 days, because its partner in crime stabbed it in the back, has hardly participated in a war against Nazi adventurism

Grossly unfair to the Poles who continued fighting in Norway, France, then back into France with the Allies on D-Day.

No more unfair than to label the Italians an aXis power – after all they fought the Nazis for more than a month.

Errr…ok…

Grizzly, if you cannot understand the difference between the role of Poland in WW2 and that of Italy, then I have to feel sorry for you.

Me, I feel sorry for the Czechs.

I guess at least Italy wasnt shafted by their freinds the way Poland and the Sovs were.

Freedom of expression by definition allows the freedom to espouse ideas that are total garbage. However, banning and denying ideas fails the honesty test. History can only teach when it is recognized.

Nice speech, but that is a gross misrepresentations of what happens in Germany today.

This 1930s Indian Air Force scheme might give German law-makers a headache if it appeared in a model shop:

They would prosecute from a mirror

Historical gaming is historical so missing off details for modern sensitivities denies the history and revisionism is best left to political extremists rather than gamers.

Unfortunately, the political extremists are running a couple countries, so having the swastika showing in your rules will either get your product banned, you arrested, or both.

The Germans have no sense of humor, and don't seem to understand the flat statement, 'well, someone has to play the bad guys!'

In the name of all that's holy, I'm so glad I'm an American.

The current German government is hardly 'politically extreme', being if anything conservative in mould!

It is a 60 year old law brought in with the best of intentions. It has absolutely nothing to do with the alleged humour or lack of it exhibited by the German people. So why not simply respect the law of a democratic nation and get on with it?

Or should we all resort to broad brush sweeping and inaccurate generalisations about an entire country because it doesn't agree with our particular POV?

Lion,

You live in a country where the cartoonist Gary Larson wasn't allowed to show toilets (or anything related to toilet-related behaviour) in his cartoons, where the Genesis song 'Jesus He Knows Me' was banned from radio networks for fear it might offend TV Evangelist-fraudsters and where an entire racial group was segregated within the living memory of a lot of people reading this…

The Germans don't have the monopoly on odd, silly and/or oppressive rules, laws and embargos.

many gamers don't use a swastika on their troops and nobody self-combusts

A few gamers with no extreme political inclination use swastikas and it sometimes raises eyebrows from perfectly honorable people

A few gamers WITH extreme political inclination use swastikas and it sometimes raises eyebrows from perfectly honorable people as well

A few countries have banned the display of swastika by law

that's the state of things my friend. Not being aware of the current context is simply being stupid.

Maybe in a not so distant future we will all have the freedom and "privilege" to wear swatiska on shirts, ties, armbands, helmet stickers… and it will probably be the only one.

ah, it's good NOT to be a nazi (with all due respect of course to nazis)

Privelige is given to you by your rulers, freedom is inalienable. In the English speaking world, displaying the swastika is not a privelige; we are free to do so.

It is very good not to be a Nazi but it is better to accord them no respect at all.

Freedom is far from being inalienable; there are many things that one is not, and should not, be free to do.

Tongue in cheeks Grizz

You live in a country where the cartoonist Gary Larson wasn't allowed to show toilets (or anything related to toilet-related behaviour) in his cartoons…

That rule was imposed by his publisher and was probably part of his syndication contract. That's not a governmental ban – he (or anyone) could draw all the toilets he wanted if not published in the paper. He used to add "banned" cartoons to his compilation books all the time.

…where the Genesis song 'Jesus He Knows Me' was banned from radio networks for fear it might offend TV Evangelist-fraudsters…

Again, that was a decision made by a commercial entity, not the government.

…and where an entire racial group was segregated within the living memory of a lot of people reading this…

Finally, an example with some substance behind it, though you have to go back 40 years to get it.

Your point is taken, but your examples are not very good ones. You'll need to find some current U.S. laws (Federal or State will do) that impose limits on individual freedoms (for seemingly arbitrary reasons) in order to better support your argument.

It wasn't intended as a serious answer, they were just a few examples off the top of my head of silly/annoying/oppressive American foibles to emphasise the silliness of Lion's comment. There is indeed a vast list of daft US laws, just as there are in the UK (as a Welshman, I daren't go within the city walls of Chester after dark, for fear of meeting someone armed with a longbow). There are just as many (proportionately) humourless Americans, bound by equally stupid laws and to paraphrase Lion, by all that's holy, I'm glad I'm not one of them.

dumblaws.com

There are also plenty of stupid laws that are intended to allow freedoms for the individual, but instead induce problems for the majority. Laws are often brought in with the best of intentions, but have unintended consequences.

There are just as many (proportionately) humourless Americans, bound by equally stupid laws and to paraphrase Lion, by all that's holy, I'm glad I'm not one of them.

I'd argue that Britian and Germany have a long jump on the United States in the stupid law-writing category, since our country has only been around for 235 years. We're trying to catch up though, just give us time…!

R. Mark, I have a longbow. However, I have never been to Chester so you are quite safe:).

I am quite pleased to note that I am barred from holding public office in Texas. Looking at the Texas dumb laws, I am intrigued to note that the lover of the ex-wife of a good friend of mine committed a criminal act while in Texas yet still went on to be a very senior figure in a past US administration.

I'd argue that Britian and Germany have a long jump on the United States in the stupid law-writing category, since our country has only been around for 235 years.

Germany is actually a younger country. 1871, I believe.

But the point is taken. Human nature, being what it is, dictates that stupid German rules must have existed before that date.