"Wargaming and the Swastika? " Topic

I have a serious question?

When writing my book, Blood and Guts: Rules, Tactics and Scenarios for Wargaming World War Two, I purposely avoided showing any swastikas on my German units' tactical symbols. Their unit labels have generic symbols. However, the Brits have the Union Jack and the Japanese have the Raising Sun displayed. For my personal use in wargaming, I have German units marked with the swastika and my SS units have their symbol as well. However, in a public forum such as this, is it permissible to show such symbols in the context of wargaming?
What do you think?

Dave Hall
commandpostproductions.co

I have no problem with it as long as it's appropriate but I'm aware of the restrictions in Germany on showing it.

My view on this is the context of how it is being shown. For historical purposes it would have to be shown in order for people to remember and understand it. Now one of the things many of us wargamers try to focus on is the historical accuracy of our miniatures. So ignoring a symbol for the sake of political correctness boarders on promoting ignorance. For my WW-II SS units that have the swastika on the unit cards. If someone asks about this symbol, we have a healthy discussion about its impact.

How many German tanks ahd a swastika? None, as far as I know.
The Luftwaffe, on the other hand…

UIse the German black and white cross on your cards.

I have seen quite a few pics of the German national flag with the Swastika being used as a aerial recognition panel on tanks and other vehicles.

Or,

And on captured vehicles,

So used in context I have no real problem with it. Robert

Wiki uses it when you look up a specific battle in the forces column for WWII. I have no problem with it.

Yeah, I see no reason to deny a bit of history if it's for the sake of properly representing a unit…. If you're just slapping the Nazi Swastika all over the place just to do it, then there's a problem.

Biggest problem of all though is with the people who don't understand that the Swastika was stolen and turned by the Nazis.

Simple – it was their symbol – would you even ask if the questioin was a hammer and sickle for the reds?

Choosing the cross is just picking the line of least resistance – someone doesnt like seeing the swastika – tell them to go play Napoleonics.

What Grizz said.

Brian

Not an issue with me, but ultra-PC types won't like it.

You could always substitute the German Eagle if you're more comfortable with that. I think the Swastika on a unit is no big deal (though as an American my family has had no personal experience). The guys who want the 9X12 foot flag behind their side of the table I worry about.

Its lame and too easy to paint. There are tons of other very German symbols that are accurate and look way cooler and everyone will know way harder to paint.

what Erasmus says

> Biggest problem of all though is with the people who don't understand that the Swastika was stolen and turned by the Nazis.

The original Land O' Lakes "Indian Maiden" display has a few swastikas on it for example. One of the originals is displayed on a flag in their corporate office. (I think the flag dates from the mid twenties – I have not seen it for 8 years now though)

"Biggest problem of all though is with the people who don't understand that the Swastika was stolen and turned by the Nazis"

Say, is that an ancient Sanskrit fertility symbol all over your Stukas?

Depending on where you're hoping to sell it, excluding the swastika might be a good idea.

The symbol can't be shown at all in German, except for very limited academic context.

Here's a good explanation of the rules from the Lead Adventure Forum. It's hosted out of German so they have to be extra careful.
link

It was their official, historically-accurate insignia, so wherever appropriate, I have no qualms about displaying the vile thing.

Same goes for my Waffen SS units: the Totenkopf specifically kinda says it all IMHO.

"Say, is that an ancient Sanskrit fertility symbol all over your Stukas?"

Make than an ancient Buddhist symbol of The Four Directions, or a Native American symbol for the cycle of life…

I'm planning a whole unit of samurai -devout Buddhists all- whose sashimono will all sport that venerable symbol in its theologically and historically correct upright position.

I don't do PC when it comes to wargaming… it's more fun that way… Mwahahaahahaaa!!!

Leland R. Erickson

If it is not gratuitous, I am OK with it.
Historical Accurate is fine, but used when it is not needed is a different story.

In your rules for publication, I would use the Balkenkreuz. That was the *standard* national insignia for most of the war.

(As an aside, the Rising Sun is the naval ensign, still used by the JMSDF today. The IJA used the plain red circle on white background that Japan still uses to this day).

As far as getting in trouble, as long as *you* aren't in Germany (or any other place that has such a ban), then it's not a problem.

This is definitely worth talking to your competition about: Battlefront (the Flames of War guys) sell all over the world, so they might be willing to provide some assistance to keep you and them out of trouble.

Native American symbol for the cycle of life.

Because of that it was popular in the early 20th century to incorporate it in some decorative designs. Our local city in California still has old lamp posts with rings of swastikas mixed with other bits along their base decorations. They aren't at eye level so people don't notice it so much.

As for selling in Germany. We replaced all swastikas with benign symbols in our computer game, Panzer Command so we could sell in Germany. A few people, including Germans, released mods to put them back on game flags or other icons. We have no control over how people mod the game after they purchase it.

I am not only a wargamer but a German lawyer too and therefore I want to inform you that to show the swastika in public is strictly forbidden in Germany even on miniatures and games with the exception of historical research. And German courts will not accept wargaming as historical research.

Therefore if you want to sell your rules and books in Germany and don´t want to do a special edition you cannot use the swastika or the SS runes.

Otherwise your rules would be confiscated. The people who import your books can be punished by law and even the people of the foreign company who export the rules might be accused.

German law is very strictly in this case because of our German history.

It's not the symbol itsalf what worries me, but the aim it is used with.

Once this said, it's true that Nazi swastika displaying is widely forbidden around the world -not just Germany or Austria. If you're likely to go gaming in one such countries, it would be wise having ready alternate devicing, at least for those most prominent pieces of your collection.

As for flags, to me the most appropriate alternative to Swastika banners is the 2nd Reich Black-White-Red flag. This was at first promoted as co-official flag by the Nazi regime --until they realized it had become an excuse for non-Nazi elements to openly show their disaffection! Then they banned and prosecuted it, labelling it as reactionary.

As for iconic symbols, a common widely used substitute is Balkenkreuz. However, I guess whether it wouldn't show better a black saltire on white (similar to the Spanish Nationalist aircraft tail device), or white over black (just as Spanish Nationalist planes cockade), the same size as the swastika it's replacing.

However, European neo-nazi organizations have long since learnt avoiding prohibition issues -should we then start studying forbidding Celtic Crosses too, for instance? As said at first, to me it isn't the symbol itself but the ideology shown what worries me.

might be safer all round with a BalkanKreuz its meaning is about as apolitical as you will get and its meaning is pretty unequivocal.

If we ignore history we are doomed to repeat our mistakes.
Use it was was used and all is fine.

When I was designing game chits for someone, he left the symbology to me and I went with the armor insignia rather than the national flags and differing base colors to make national forces obvious.

US – encircled star, Olive Drab base
Germany – balkenkreuz, Panzer Yellow base
Britain – roundel, hunter green base

Wyatt

I was just talking to a friend who works for a company in Germany that is making a WWII game. According to him the restrictions on the use of the swastika are being relaxed and they are using it in the video game they are producing. It is permissible to use it in movies now as well.

I have no problem with it if used on places where it would have been used. Actually if someone wants to put it on a Tiger tank like skulls on a space marine I don't have a problem with it. I might think it a little odd.

In addition to what I wrote on the other thread, I do not see a problem except in Germany where the symbol is still illegal to some extent. I have a small plaque in the den back home that has some Nazi memorabilia that my dad brought back from WWII, Nazi belt buckle, insignia, coins and Hitler postage stamps. I have a small plaque inside the display that says "WWII memorabilia of PFC Junior K. Mattes" I have more Swastikas on my wall in a 9 by 11 frame then most Neo-Nazis have in a meeting hall. Hardly makes me a Nazi.

VR
James Mattes

The Swastika was also used in the early medieval period. My village boasts an early 11th Century Memorial Cross which is decorated with a frieze of Swastika symbols.

I don't think very many people will have a real problem with it, but a few will have a big problem with it -- especially those who don't understand what wargaming is all about.

I recall that years ago, at some con that was held in a hotel or other public setting, some lady, possibly a Holocaust survivor, was very upset at seeing people, especially young people, playing games that used Nazi symbols (possibly board games, I don't remember). I can understand her shock, but on the other hand, she needed to understand -- and people did try to explain it to her -- that there was no (current) political meaning behind the use of these symbols -- its was strictly historical. I'm not sure she ever understood.

Sorry to say the amount of empathy to others' point of view is so low in the community. So many other symbols can be used with an incredibly lower amount of possible bad feelings to what we do in gaming. We get what we deserve in a lot of cases. To ignore the social side of how you are seen has got nothing to do with historical accuracy, just simple sensitivity.

To say there is no current meaning attached to the symbol which is still widely held as the symbol of a despicable group is a good example of a head in the sand.

I have walked away from WW2 games at conventions when there was a blatant display of swastikas present. Not that I ever said anything to the people playing in or running the game. It's pretty much like politics or religion, no amount of an argument will change somebody's mind.

Since you asked about using it in a commercial venture, you should be aware that it will cost you sales from some people who might otherwise buy a product.

Excellent point, JF.

"The symbol can't be shown at all in German, except for very limited academic context"

I got a shock when strolling past the Hamburg State Court seat, an imposing stone building with tall pillars, and there were high banners with swastikas draped all over the entrance. Turns out they were filming a movie. Comments from the passersby were classic. There were similar scenes when they filmed "Downfall" in Berlin.

Here's the link to the German news reporting of the filming:

link

And I've played miniatures in Germany with swastikas on the Stuka tail fins. It did make some people a tad uneasy, so in deference to their fear of being thought a neonazi, I put some stickers over the offending image. I find it goes a bit overboard, but all in all, good that they cut no slack for the rightwing extremists who would otherwise misuse the freedoms of a democratic state against the state itself.

Context is everything.

Germany tried to have a ban adopted EU wide a few years ago but failed after complaints by Hindus and Buddhists who used the device for centuries as a symbol.

The proposal was not really thought through. Religious symbols cannot be banned even in Germany.

One can understand why Germany takes the stance it does. It is their problem and when in Berlin…….

The very reason the OP raised the subject indicates that the sensitivity is clearly understood. If it isn't necessary, my view is don't use it.

You know back in the 1970 I could see the problem with it. I was a young trooper on my first assignment in Germany, my father had fought in WWII in Europe. That was 40 years ago. I think things have changed, perhaps it would have changed faster had not Neo-Nazi (White supremacist) in mostly countries that fought the Nazis (UK, US, France, and the low countries) not adopted the insignia as part of their hate message. I also think that as long as there are survivors of the Holocaust and WWII there will be some who object to any depiction of the Swastika. For me I think I soften my view when the Osprey on Roman allies in antiquity came out and showed a swastika on a Samnite shield.

VR
James Mattes

I don't think very many people will have a real problem with it, but a few will have a big problem with it -- especially those who don't understand what wargaming is all about.

"Well, *someone* has to play the bad guys" seems to work pretty well!

There a few well known samurai families who use the symbol, just check out the osprey samurai heraldry guide.

The comments about samurai, buddhists, hindus, ancient European pagans etc, are something of a red herring. The topic here is a particular form of the swastika, which is still laden with meaning.

For those who state that the nazi swastika is strictly historical, try looking at the use of the symbol by neo-nazis across Europe and the US.

Joe Fish seems to have got it about right; I have to admit that I sometimes despair of many wargamers' inability to see how their behaviour influences opinion against the hobby.

As I said, context is everything. It is not a hard concept to grasp.

"I am not only a wargamer but a German lawyer too and therefore I want to inform you that to show the swastika in public is strictly forbidden in Germany even on miniatures and games"

The Germans are rightly concerned about what lies just under the surface in some parts of German society. Germany has some lovely people living it, but there are also thuggish Neo-nazi sects just itching to strut about and beat up minorities. I played some historic WW2 German marching songs recently on Youtube, great tunes, some of which my Dad and his army 'borrowed' while they were in the desert. Not so great were some of the pin-head comments that were attached to the Youtube vids. Total drivel yet ideas sincerely held by the poster. You can't be too careful. Some of these deranged thickos are determined to steal genuine history to prop up their moronic ideals and hijack them as icons. A bit like the BNP has tried to do with the Union Flag, but without the sense of establishment that having your own mad dictator can endow.

At the other extreme it's irritating to buy a scale model of yer actual ME109 etc, perfect in every detail and lovingly assembled to a craftsman standard, only to find a bare tail fin. That sort of thing just shouts "fix me".

It's actually very hard to see anything other than Ancients played at national tournaments in Germany. Pre-gunpowder is de rigeur. When the first wargame conventions were held there the Greens were holding demonstrations and protesting outside the venue against hobbyists promoting war….. Not the case on British military bases of course, which has a lot of German gamers turning up for a bit of 'proper' wargaming.

Actually, in Germany "Wargaming" is called "Tabletopping". Whereas in UK Tabletopping is something quite different and only legal between consenting adults…….

People are strange, huh? Cultural mores can vary so much in just a few miles. I remember going with a German friend of mine to buy some wargames figures in Koln. We went down a high street flooded with very explicit porno cinemas, prossie ads mags and sex shops, before turning into a gloomy back street. Pausing before a plain door in the bowels of Koln my friend knocked furtively on the door. It opened on a chain and my pal had a conversation along the lines of "Schultz sent me" before we were let in to buy some figures.

Incredible but true.

Würfel hoch! Für Sie ist das Spiel vorbei!

and when in Berlin…….

Hit the bomb release button!

It's actually very hard to see anything other than Ancients played at national tournaments in Germany. Pre-gunpowder is de rigeur. When the first wargame conventions were held there the Greens were holding demonstrations and protesting outside the venue against hobbyists promoting war

I think it is similar in Austria. A few years back my friend went there and wanted to check out the war museum. They had a room with war weapons and uniforms from 1500s, the 1600s, the 1700s and the Napoleon age. Then the progrssion just ended. My friend asked a curator were the rooms were with W.W.II stuff and was told Austria wasn't in W.W.II. Not withstanding that a SU-100 on a monument stood at the entrance of the very museum.

For those who state that the nazi swastika is strictly historical, try looking at the use of the symbol by neo-nazis across Europe and the US.

Some of them have found out that their favorite symbol makes a wonderful aiming point, just like their ideological ancestors did… Unfortunately, not enough of them have learned that lesson yet.

Grizzlymc, holy hell, I laughed so hard I choked when I saw that. Scrolling down. La dee da…reading along, insensitive people, oversensitive people, holocaust survivors, leftists, right wingers, neo-nazis…. Then suddenly!

"Hit the bomb release button!"

I'm so going to hell for it, but that was unexpectedly hilarious for a few seconds.

"Some of them have found out that their favorite symbol makes a wonderful aiming point, just like their ideological ancestors did… Unfortunately, not enough of them have learned that lesson yet."

Agreed Lion….However. Sadly…thinking deeply on it for a few minutes. Lets say some of us get together, find an Aryan Brotherhood compound, load ourselves up with semi-automatic rifles and plenty of mags then cordon off and assault the place with the intention of neutralizing all resistance first, then…shall we say.."Executing non-combatants" to ensure that there's fewer people left to spread that garbage ideology and we do it all because of their belief in wrongfully hating people based on colour, religion, etc… Would we be any better than they are?
Short answer is yes we would be better, but not by nearly enough to justify wiping them out violently. Meeting violence with greater violence however…..Well, we'd just need them to make a first strike to give us an excuse, no?

That's what freedom is however. Taking the good with the bad. If a minority of people want to think they're superior because of their skin colour, they're welcome to. I'd never stop them from believing it. IQ tests speak louder than genetics and I'd bet half of them can't even spell either "Intelligence" or "Quotient" with a select few unable to spell "Test". ;) To beat them, one just needs to help stem the tide of ignorance which allows them to recruit and 'teach' their ways.

I am not only a wargamer but a German lawyer too and therefore I want to inform you that to show the swastika in public is strictly forbidden in Germany even on miniatures and games with the exception of historical research. And German courts will not accept wargaming as historical research………………German law is very strictly in this case because of our German history.

As a Canadian from German descent, I must say that this has me worried about Germany.

Are you saying that there are no minds subtle enough, within the entire German Judicial and legal system, to understand the concepts of "context" and "intent"?

We here in North America are also no friends of Nazism, but somehow we can tell the difference between a Neo-Nazi thug, draped in a swastika, and a decal on a toy tank.

I always thought that the art of being a good lawyer is to understand and follow the intent of the law, and not the letter of the law. Strict, unthinking obedience to the letter of the law also presents a danger. Clearly, to consider the publishers, importers, distributors and owners of a book of toy soldier rules criminals, simply because some toy tanks contain swastika decals, is asinine.

The vast majority of my family perished during WW2, so I am sensitive to the relationship of modern Germany to it's darker past.

"Are you saying that there are no minds subtle enough, within the entire German Judicial and legal system, to understand the concepts of "context" and "intent"?"

The swastika ban in Germany is really intended to avoid pictures in the news of neonazi idiots parading around in swastikas, and Germany thereby getting grief from its neighbors and allies. And it succeeds in that goal.

The ban is not really intended to prevent neonazis from organising – they can do that just fine, but the symbols they use aren't quite so provocative to Germany's European neighbors. So the ban does work, and Germany's courts avoid tiresome, repetitive cases of legalistic pilpul brought about by neonazis who are looking for free publicity.

Granted, I wouldn't like a swastika ban in my own country, for all the right reasons, but I understand the reasoning in Germany.

Tuscaloosa,

I agree with your statements but I believe you miss the point.

It is the inflexible law that links Neo-Nazis with everyday people, who may happen to own a FOW supplement, which may contain a photo showing a swastika on a toy. According to our German lawyer friend, both these individuals can be subject to criminal prosecution. That specific law, and the legal system seems incapable of understanding "intent" and "context".

What people have said before about context. When someone says "PC" I tend to think "Common Courtesy".

Mind you, this…..

Biggest problem of all though is with the people who don't understand that the Swastika was stolen and turned by the Nazis.

No, it wasn't. It has a longer and less than glorious history amongst German nationalist groups than the Nazi party. Look up the Thule society (totally hatstand this bunch) and the Freikorps.

I wouldn't go to downtown Tel Aviv and tell them it's really a happy clappy Hindu symbol of peace and love.

People are strange, huh? Cultural mores can vary so much in just a few miles. I remember going with a German friend of mine to buy some wargames figures in Koln. We went down a high street flooded with very explicit porno cinemas, prossie ads mags and sex shops, before turning into a gloomy back street. Pausing before a plain door in the bowels of Koln my friend knocked furtively on the door. It opened on a chain and my pal had a conversation along the lines of "Schultz sent me" before we were let in to buy some figures.

So banning then has led to back-alley wargame figures.

Mobius, the point I was making was the different mores of various nations and the associated sensitivities. Banning always drives things underground, doesnt stop it. Just like banning porn and drugs in UK doesnt stop them being sold. Jeez, half of Cynthia Paynes clientele were judges and barristers!

The difference in Germany is that naked women in magazines don't create violence, but the neo nazis there are very serious, are very very nasty, and can do a whole lot of damage to innocent people. A bit like Milwall supporters.

I guess most of my German friends now buy their figures on the internet, btw, or at trade stands in shows held at NATO bases.

Banning the Hakenkreutz is also a simple and understandable law in a country that values order and clarity in its society, as well as flagging clearly the changed values of a modern Germany.

Dont forget that Germany is the country that in a generation or so since it's inception gave the world almost constant wars: – against Denmark, then Austria, then France, then everyone (mainly in Europe and Russia), then everyone again – but this time pretty much everywhere, and including scientifically engineered attempts at the wholesale destruction of their unarmed & non-combatant women and children, and a whole host of various undefended minorities who were unfortunate enough to fall into their grasp.

Putting your own decal on your ME109 somehow seems a rather small price to pay…….

And, no doubt, to back alley swastikas.

The Germans may have learned that it is not nice to have your country invaded and your cities bombed, but they have clearly failed to learn the true liberal democratic lesson of the '40s.

What was evil in Nazi Germany was not the swastika, it was the Charlie Chaplain impersonator, his actions and the peoplle who supported his odious government and their actions.

By banning the symbols of that regime you create a precednet as dangerous as that of book burning. If the Nazis can have their symbols banned, why not an EU seperatist party, or an anti immigration party, or indeed any party whose platform offends the spirit of the day?

The answer to that rhetorical question should be that banning symbols, thoughts, and attitudes, as opposed to crimes like mass execution and torture, will bring us down the same slippery slope to the same level of un checked and un questioning executive power which caused the problem in the first place.

If the german market is important for your product I would advise against swastikas – otherwise anyone who gets offended by a dodgy looking daub should go get a life.