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"Saxon Kurassier Von Zastrow and Saxon Garde Du Corps " Topic


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Flight Sergeant Reggie Inactive Member27 Sep 2011 8:20 p.m. PST

Does anyone know how these proposals are doing in the Eureka 100 Club? The Saxon Kurassier Von Zastrow and Saxon Garde Du Corps have been listed for over a year.

Are there any other manufacturers talking about releasing the Saxon heavies, a must for 2012 you would think, given their exploits at Borodino. I know that Connoisseur and Front Rank have their own sculpts of these brilliant units.

The Peter Bunde plates cover these regiments very well so there is information a-plenty.

nsolomon99 Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2011 9:16 p.m. PST

You're asking about 25mm options, right? 'cos Eureka already have them for 15mm in the AB range and wonderful figures they are too.

Flight Sergeant Reggie Inactive Member28 Sep 2011 5:19 a.m. PST

Well, I was hoping 28mm. If they are as good as their SYW Saxon cavalry, then they will be very good indeed.

Personal logo Der Alte Fritz Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Sep 2011 6:01 a.m. PST

The Connoisseur Saxon heavy cavalry are some of the best sculpts that Peter Gilder ever made. They look awesome.

Chortle Fezian28 Sep 2011 9:09 a.m. PST

Another vote for Connoisseur. BTW, I think you need to take trumpeters from somewhere else, as they are not done (from memory). Also from memory, I think people use the British Life Guard cavalry. Fritz will be able to correct me if I'm wrong.

Bent Bayonet Inactive Member29 Sep 2011 12:58 a.m. PST

Flight Sergeant Reggie,

I'm pleased to announce that Eureka Miniatures will be producing the Saxon Zastrow Kuirassiers and Garde Du Corps.

The figures will be sculpted in 28mm by the brilliant Alan Marsh and will be Perry compatible.

Eureka have forwarded all the details to the sculpter and I would expect the 'greens' should be with Eureka for casting by December.

This is Eureka's 1st foray into later 28mm Napoleonics and naturally Nic wanted to make something previously not covered. You'll be pleased to learn there will be the usual great variety found within Eureka's current historical ranges, so expect shouldered sword & charging poses for the troopers, trumpeter sounding but also charging with drawn sword. There will also be officers standard bearers and casualty figures!!

The greens will be put up on Eureka's webpage when they arive.

Flight Sergeant Reggie Inactive Member29 Sep 2011 2:30 p.m. PST

What was the unit strength of each Saxon cavalry regiment at Borodino? Is there a detailed OOB of this Brigade?

fitterpete Inactive Member29 Sep 2011 3:58 p.m. PST

Woohoo! always wanted to do theses regiments.

Flight Sergeant Reggie Inactive Member29 Sep 2011 4:22 p.m. PST

To answer my own question, the perfect link is on the Napoleon Series:

link

EagleSixFive Supporting Member of TMP11 Oct 2011 6:59 a.m. PST

Bent Bayonet

Supporting order placed for both units. They will look superb!

By John 54 Supporting Member of TMP11 Oct 2011 7:23 a.m. PST

I'm with Fritzy-boy, again, the Connoissuer figures for these are still stunning casts.

John

Duke of Plaza Toro Inactive Member11 Oct 2011 6:33 p.m. PST

I am working on the research for these at this very moment.

Can anyone help me with identifying the carbine they carried?

According to the article in Tradition (French) issue #203, Sept 2004, it was of "Saxon manufacture' (Schul) and the pistols were copies of the Year IX French gendarmerie weapons. Pistols won't be visible, but we would like to get the carbine looking right if someone has access to a picture better than this one of the Leib-Kurassier-Garde's carbine.

picture

The longer musket shown carried inverted on page 27 of Von Pivka's Osprey (MaA #90) is for 1806 cavalry and apparently replaced with a carbine by 1812.

John Chadderton
Eureka Miniatures

von Winterfeldt12 Oct 2011 1:05 a.m. PST

I did answer this already in another thread.

Saxon carabine

made at Suhl

length in total : 1180 mm
barrel lenth : 810 mm
calibre : 17.5 mmm
weight : about 4.1 kg

you may also consult :

Schön : Geschichte der Handfeuerwaffen, Dresden 1858

He brings on plate 29 – drawing Nr. 118 a so called Saxon old Dragoon carabine which matches in outlook the carabine in the plate above.

The dimenstions are more or less identical to the dimensions supplied above from a Donner plate.

Please drop me a pm and I do a photo of the drawing.


According to Schön, page 159

barrel length : 808.5 mm or 34.2 Saxon inches
caliber : 0,74 Saxon inches or 17.73 mm
total lenght : 50.2 Saxon inches

I don't know the equivalent of an Saxon inch to millimeter.

P.S.

Seeing the mail by esteemed Dr. Summerfield, I checked his book about Saxon artillery about dimensions, he gives for a Saxon in 23.5 mm

so the total length would be more or less identical to the dimensions of Donner in his plate about Saxon cuirassiers 1810 – 1813

summerfield12 Oct 2011 1:09 a.m. PST

Dear John
I said that I had put together some plate for you but you did not reply.
Stephen

von Winterfeldt12 Oct 2011 5:13 a.m. PST

Here the link

link

I like to draw your attention also to

Tradition Nr. 54 – 55, page 34 following – including photos of an orginal coat of a Saxon cuirassier and other equipment.

I compliment the will of research of Eureka – and I am crossing my fingers that the sculptor is also studying the cut of cloth and all its peculiarities.

While looking at my Tradition magazine, there are two good articles by Patrice Courcelle in Nr. 106 and 110 about the Russians at Zürich 1799

Duke of Plaza Toro Inactive Member12 Oct 2011 2:56 p.m. PST

Thank you very much gentlemen.

To von Winterfeldt: I am particularly indebted to you for the picture. Thank you. Yes – I have already seen the Tradition article in 54-55 (and the 1799 ones), but thank you again for mentioning it.

To Dr Summerfield: Stephen, I am a little puzzled. grin I do not recall having any discussion with you about Saxon Cavalry. Was it by chance a certain Mike Cope you were corresponding with about possible plates? Mike is one of the sponsors of this project (and I know he was talking to you), but he is not a Eureka employee so there may have been a miscommunication. My apologies if that is the case. I will contact you via email.

John Chadderton
Eureka Miniatures

Duke of Plaza Toro Inactive Member12 Oct 2011 4:05 p.m. PST

Oh – and a small postscript for those interested –

Another of my helpful informants (in Vienna) tells me that the local Saxon weapons industry struggled to keep pace with the reorganisation and re equipping of the Saxon army in 1810, so a large number of firearms (including cavalry carbines) were purchased from Austria. So Austrian carbines are also applicable.

John Chadderton
Eureka Miniatures

von Winterfeldt12 Oct 2011 9:58 p.m. PST

is there any source to taking over Austrian carabines?
And then – what modell would they take on?
Neither Austrian carabine fits with the above carabine of the uniform plate.

summerfield13 Oct 2011 3:16 p.m. PST

Dear John
No that is fine. It was I did not want to waste my time as it had taken me half a day to find and scan the images. Rather stressed with producing my 9th book of the year published. Now with that done I can reflect.

The printers have my book on the Saxon Army of the Seven Years War. I was wondering if you have seen the work of Rudolf Trache and Dr Dietrich from the early 20th century. I had collected these for the 7YW project and may be I will complete that book on the Napoleonic Army. There are 6 books ahead of that.

Stephen
link

Duke of Plaza Toro Inactive Member19 Oct 2011 7:11 p.m. PST

von Winterfeldt:

Sorry for the slow reply.

My contact tells me the information comes from – Militärgewehre und Pistolen der Deutschen Staaten 1800-1870 by Hans-Dieter Götz (sorry he did not supply me a page reference). This apparently refers to a deal the Saxons struck with Vienna weapons manufacturer Philipp Calnot in 1811 for a mixed collection of some 20,000 used / second hand weapons including cavalry carbines. Many were 'battlefield pickups' of "good condition, fault free, rust clean weapons of Austrian and French design". Information on the particular model types is limited but most of the Austrian weapons were of considerable vintage – only a small part of the muskets supplied being of the Austrian M1798 pattern for example.

Moritz Thierbachs also mentions the Saxons sourcing muskets from Austria in Die Handfeuerwaffen der saechsischen Armee and he refers to the Saxons doing a second deal with Austrian suppliers for over 15,000 used muskets. The origin of these weapons is not given.

I'm also told the Saxon – Austrian arms dealing is mentioned in Die Sächsische Armee zur Zeit Napoleons by Wolfgang Gülich.

I agree neither weapon shown in the above picture matches any Austrian weapon, and we intend to go with your suggestion (thank you), but I just thought the possible Austrian angle was worth mentioning out of interest.

John Chadderton
Eureka Miniatures

von Winterfeldt19 Oct 2011 10:04 p.m. PST

thank you pointing out the sources.

What is your decision about the holster flaps – in my view there was a difference between officers and trooper, see for example the trumpeter of Saxon Garde du Corps and the Officer – from the Sauerweid prints – available on Napoleon-online.de as well.

summerfield20 Oct 2011 2:02 a.m. PST

Dear con Winterfeldt
The holster flaps distinguish officers and their rank.
Stephen

von Winterfeldt20 Oct 2011 3:39 a.m. PST

It is actually not only the holster flaps – also the saddle cloth – compare those of the officers with that of the men – different.

summerfield20 Oct 2011 4:07 a.m. PST

Yes I agree.
Stephen

Duke of Plaza Toro Inactive Member20 Oct 2011 3:40 p.m. PST

We are on top of that one gentlemen.

Troopers sat on a half sheepskin – half shabraque arrangement. The shabraque is broadly rounded in shape with sweeping curved rear corners. The pistol covers are also somewhat curvilinear, with a rounded bottom edge that gives the appearance of being slightly scalloped were it sits over the bottom end of the protruding pistol holster. Behind the saddle is a ‘square' ended valise/portmanteau.

Officers sat on a visible leather saddle (no sheepskin), with a rectilinear shabraque with right-angle pointed corners front and rear. The pistol covers are also sharply angular and ‘squared' compared to those of the troopers with the bottom edge of the cover formed into a distinct point. Officers do not have valise/portmanteaus.

John Chadderton
Eureka Miniatures

summerfield21 Oct 2011 1:24 a.m. PST

Dear John
Did you get the plates that I sent you.
Stephen

Duke of Plaza Toro Inactive Member21 Oct 2011 4:13 p.m. PST

Yes I did thank you Stephen. Sorry for my tardiness – it was the usual hectic Friday at Fort Eureka with the retail shop being open and lots of other irons in the fire.

I have not had time to absorb them yet, but I'll drop you an email on Monday.

John

summerfield21 Oct 2011 4:30 p.m. PST

Dear John
Alas university e-mail server fell over yesterday and I was not sure whether you had received them. I understand how busy you are. Currently trying to sort out the Prussian Grenadiers for a new book on the Frederick the Great's Army. The combinations are quite complex.
Stephen

von Winterfeldt22 Oct 2011 2:27 a.m. PST

There is a very good comprehensive article in Soldats Napoleoniens Nr. 19 : l'armée saxonee 1810 – 1813, with a lot of very nice illustrations

ChristopherWalkerloo Inactive Member31 May 2012 7:39 a.m. PST

I'm also pouring through the worlds pictures of Saxon Garde du Corps 1812 for some new paper Borodino figure releases…

Almost Everywhere I find square valises on sculpted figures and packaging paintings for S.D.d.C c.1812 model soldiers yet in all historic prints(there don't seem to be so many) I only see round valises although it's always a little unclear… that includes the image above.

Another question has come to mind whilst studying these older images. 'Boot Stiffness'. Some time ago I was preparing drawing of contemporary HRH Household Cavalry and was struck by the starchiness of their boots especially compared to the worn in version re-enactors can be seen in. See the image above and there are many like it the heavy cavalry boots are very shiny and very stiff… I'm imagine some leather could get soft …especially around the ankles and knees but the length of the boots looks very thick leather in the Horse guards… and in all the historical prints this stiffness is apparent. Is this Artists 'highlighting' short hand or actual stiff boot leather leg protection/fashion statement … I've watched re-enactors BBQ chicken from the super market… I guess the seams in the dream are inevitable for even the most ardent stitch counter. To draw softened or not softened boots…

Any one got proof for the square valise… or info/opinion on heavy cavalry boot stiffness would be lovley.

I found an apparently authoratative line sketch with detailed written uniform description yesterday although I pocketed the sketch I've mislaid the link. Think is was part of Napoleon series… yes refound it link

(some previews of other artwork for the project is flickr.com/photos/mythself

Sparker31 May 2012 2:37 p.m. PST

As for the Eureka figures, they are wonderful scultpts, to which my painting hardly does justice:

picture

picture

picture

trailape31 May 2012 2:40 p.m. PST

Hi Sparker
VERY NICE.
I have some of these chaps myself. I will paint them once I've finished my Swiss Infantry, Old Guard Grenadiers, Belgian Jagers and Hanovarian Militia,…..

Personal logo VonBlucher Supporting Member of TMP31 May 2012 2:47 p.m. PST

Sparker,
You did a good job on those, the came out very nice.

John

Sparker31 May 2012 6:31 p.m. PST

Thanks guys…

Trailape, you call that a painting list? THIS is a painting list:

10th Prince of Wales's Own Hussars (The Chainy Tenth)
7th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards (Skins)
6th Princess Charlotte's Light Dragoons (Fictional unit from the Hervey books)
Lots more plastic Russians – have 3 boxes of Perry's looking at me
Lots more plastic French – Perrys again damn them!
Plastic Dragoons, Cuirassiers, French Hussars,

Then theres a mountain of Calpe Prussians for 1813/2013
Then I'll need Austrians for 1814/2014….

You get the drift – the lead mountain now has a plastic mountain to keep it company…..And the valley inbetween is littered with the detritus of low priority projects – Rhody Bush Wars, the Sudan, 15mm Guards Armoured Div, Napoleonic Naval….

Jeez my work is starting to interfere with my wargaming career….

von Winterfeldt31 May 2012 10:07 p.m. PST

The Saxon Army by Howard Giles was quite good then – but still misses a lot of points, Eureka did a very good job in my view – in research and the figures match it.

rabbit01 Jun 2012 3:22 a.m. PST

Steve Barber is now doing Saxons in full dress as a special for a gent who wants the entire army.

Don't know when the cuirassiers are going to be ready but you could contact him, the figs he has done so far are superb!

rabbit

Musketier Supporting Member of TMP07 Jun 2012 12:24 p.m. PST

@ Christopher:

Definitely stiff boots for heavy cavalry, though perhaps not the high-gloss finish of today's Household Cavalry on parade. Riding in close order, the lower leg had to be protected from the press of neighbouring horses. The men had shoes for walking when in camp or barracks (and clogs for stable duty).

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