"How complex do you like your rules?" Topic

Detailed – many tactical choices, I can leave the table set up for next time

Moderate – some complexity, some abstraction

Fast play – cut to the chase, game over in 2-3 hours

DBA – 45 minutes – wanna play again?

Rules? Me?

I like to put in a lot of thought and planning into my rules and games, but ideally BEFORE the game not DURING it, as you get with the Black Powder/Hail Caeser and FOW stable, allowing me to try and think like a commander not a gamer at the table, which I guess puts me into the Fast play camp…

I agree with Sparker,
put a lot of thought into the
scenario,
but then fast play rules.

Fast play rules.

Yeah, FUBAR!

Fast play most of the time.

Moderate – Of course, what the devil that means is a matter of personal taste. I like a four-five hour games.

Sometimes. Sometime I like meat and potatoes, sometimes I want a doughnut.

Moderate is the compromise. Detailed when I can get it. DBA ilk? Never. I make time for my hobbies.

Fast play – cut to the chase, game over in 2-3 hours

BBDBA is a good game like this.

Fast Play. I dont have a couple days to play a game to completion. Git er done in a couple hours.

It depends.

Generally, fairly complex, but not crazy complex like ASL, Harpoon, or CAS.

Perhaps a notch down from those.

Simple rules, for fast play, with some customization of weapons, and troop quality, to add a bit of depth to them are very good too.

30 years ago I could handle 100's of pages of rules like ASL and Star Fleet Battles.

Now just give me some Fast Play and let me roll over and get back to my nap.

Depends what I am playing.

skirmish – quick and simple

big battle – more details please

I don't want complex at all though, detailed is fine complex is not.

Fast play doesn't necessarily equate to 2-3 hours. It depends on the size of the game and the players. I like easy fast play rules for large battles. I have found that American gamers are less and less patient enough to play a 4 to 6+ hour game, back in the dark ages when I started in this hobby the long game was the norm. So sad.

Fast play, please.

Depends on what I am playing.

The more I know about a period, the more detailed I like the rules to be. As pointed out above, that doesn't necessarily mean complex. If it's something I know very little about (most stuff), I'm happy with simple game mechanics – which is why SAGA is looking so good for me right now.

Fast play or DBA type are my preference. Never did care for overly detailed rulesets.

For a club night, two hours, three max. You can of course have quite detailed rules, just keep the games small.

For a weekend game, well, all day, but I'd rather have a huge game with simple rules.

Fast Play. Hate it when the rules overtake the fun.

The best rules are uncomplicated and streamlined but still retain a strong period flavor. This allows players to focus on command decisions and tactics rather than on what page which rule is found.

Moderate/Fast Play.

It all really depends on the rules. I can handle more detail if it's relevant. What I can't handle is poor game construction that has you making 20 die rolls when one would do.

Some of each, depending on what I'm playing.

Fast play, low fig count (no more than 15 figs…).

No more than 15 figs?! That hardly seems worth the time setting up a table, figuring a scenario and showing up for. <grin> Seriously though, unless it is a squad on squad skirmish game I don't feel like I'm playing unless I have around 80 figures under my command.

Fast play

I like DUST tactics alot

Warrior Rogue and Mage for fantasy

Savage Worlds for just about anything.

… but I'll play almost anything.

Moderate – some complexity, some abstraction

And I like LOTS of figs/units per player

Detailed, I can always make it simpler. I once stripped down Advanced Squad Player so roleplayers could get into it.

Not!

Generally, fast rules rule.

What I think I want and what is practical may be two different things. I know I do not like most of the popular rules being used these days.

I would say "don't care", but I care deeply.

If the complexity is demonstrably necessary, then I can take almost any amount ("USN" was one of my first games; I loved "Air War").

If the simplifications are compellingly believable, then I am entirely happy with very simple games (DBA is a favourite; I really liked SDC's "NORAD").

The things that make me puke blood, howl and throw furniture are pointless over-complication (as in "Advanced Squad Leader", "Up Front!", the wretched Newbury "Cambrai to Sinai" rules and almost anything by Yaquinto) or cretinously inappropriate simplification (precious few examples of that, but SPI's "Dixie" qualifies despite a good idea for representing C2).

Generally, simpler models are better models, but there is a deal of fun and "flow" to be had in manipulating quite complex mechanisms.

I think it's Tony Hawkins' measure of a good game that it presents the players with reasonably frequent decisions without embroiling them in mere clerical mechanism. I agree; I want to play at being a commander, not a clerk. But there is still fun to be had in the more clerical aspects if you love it when a plan comes together.

All the best,

John.

Fast play, game over in 3 hours max.

Fast play, definitely – life is too short to spend hours over a complex ruleset and game.
A problem of complex rules is that the time one has to spend reading/trying to understand them before one can play also increases!

I write my own rules (OGABAS, Oh God! Anything But a Six!) for the 18th Century, "The Shattered Century for Between the Wars and early WWII). I've often said it here, all rules I write have to fit into 6 pages (both sides) 8 1/2 by 11, with 3/4" margins 12 point Times Roman Bold, with all text, illustrations, tables, charts graphs, examples,maps and game master drivel notes in that 12 pages. if I can't fit it, I get out the red pen and start slashing.

I generally won't buy rules and if I do I won't by anything that's more than 12 pages. If I can't udnerstand your game by page 4 then I don't want anything to do with it. Rules that start out with an Aristotelian type discussion of the nature of the universe (with pages and pages of organizing and basing of troops with arcane definitions of terms leave me cold. Got an A in college Philosophy and a B+ in theology. Served my time in discourse hell thank you very much.

My Civil War Rules "Magnolia's Mint Juleps N' Gritz" are the simplest of all- one page two sides. I did cheat on that though and used 1/2" margins.

Anyway, that's all nice, but in OGABAS we pit armies of around 650 35mm figures on a side or 1300 figures total, maximum on a 6 x 12 foot table, and reach an unequivocal decision in a maximum of five hours of play. Lotsa fun, lotsa movement, and lotsa back and forth, with wide swings of fortune.

Simple rules, complex scenarios.

There's no reason why any contemporary game design shouldn't be 'fast play'; this should always be one of the primary design objectives.

There are now so many mechanism options available to the would-be designer that don't involve long lists of modifiers or complex calculations that there's really no excuse for complexity for its own sake.

And precisely targeting your game system, both historically and geographically, is a great aid to design efficiency.

Fast play all the way. I also agree with O Schmidt,
Short rule section that is easy to understand. For example,
I believe that Force on Force would be fun to play and, as I understand it, not difficult to play, yet by the time I have read through the rules I can't remember all the rules I have read so I have never played it.

One postcript.

I strongly suspect that it is all up to what you want out of an evening of gaming. Notice I did not say what you want out of gaming.

For me an essential part of any gaming session-- no-- the PRIMARY part is the other gamers. I love games, but the thing I love most abou tthem is that I get to laugh and goof and kid around and be with my friends, eating, drinking wine, telling jokes, and all of that around a great game with great figures. That "atmosphere" makes the game for me, and I really don't want a lot of complication to get in the way of the socializing with my friend.s If the rules take too much time to operate then my friends and I get bored, and might get into arguments. I don't like that. I like pleasant social settings and so do most of my friends. The reason is simple. We're all in the 40 to 70 crowd and we are painfull aware that we are all short timers on this earth. WE want to enjoy each others company and can't stand it when arguments, boredom and inaction ruins the time we have together. Worse it ruins the good food and good wine!

I'm also NOT a competative player and I don't care if I win. I just care if my friends have a good time.