"The German 20mm in Saving Private Ryan" Topic

In the above movie, in the battle towards the end, the Germans bring on what is described as a "20mm". It seems to be a weapon on wheels pushed along by its crew.

It's years since I saw the movie but I was surprised at the time by the suggestion that infantry would use something like this. It would be useless against tanks, as a single barrel not that much better against aircraft, and a bit bulky and obvious to use against infantry. I mean you'd rather have an MG42 surely.

Nonetheless it appears (from link for example) that 20mm weapons were numerous.

Was the SPR weapon the one in the link, and were they used as infantry support weapons, like a rather large and clumsy machine gun? Or is this a case of an ad hoc battle group using whatever it has?

I can see how something like a Wirbelwind would have been very nasty against infantry – four barrels firing 220rpm. A shieldless single 20mm tube though…hmmm…

I wasn't surprised..the Germans were masters of improvistion

Bit of footage here of 20mm AA guns in use, against both air and ground targets:

YouTube link

I think just one of those would be enough for me to consider it "very nasty" if it were pointing at me. I wouldn't need the other three to feel that way.

my sentiments exactly..

the gun is a 20mm flak 38 light aa gun, often used in the ground role as it became less of a threat to aircraft as its rate of fire was not as good as the flakvierling quad 20's.

I think that, on both sides in WW2, it was often a case of 'needs must when the devil drives'.

"Was the SPR weapon the one in the link, and were they used as infantry support weapons, like a rather large and clumsy machine gun? Or is this a case of an ad hoc battle group using whatever it has? "

Well, it is an auto-cannon, and somewhat scary to be on the wrong end of. Rather like the modern Rarden. 20mm Flak was clearly best used defending important stuff like gun lines, bridges etc but a fair amount did end up in a ground support role as well.

Shame about the SPR battlegroup, if they'd only kept it to the Marders (as 352nd IDs Panzerjaeger Companies were used for counterattacks near Omaha) rather than teleporting in 2nd SS Panzer Div and its mythical Tigers.

It wouldn't be unreasonable for a company sized advance guard to have a couple of AA guns along. IRL they nmight have remembered to bring some mortars as well:)

hmm, mortars dropping smoke to cover the attack..well not much a movie if they did that!!!

In the SP variant, the (unarmoured) Sdkfz10/4 and 10/5 became known as the 'panzerflak' to the Germans due to its frequent appearacne in the ground role. There's a well known sequence of photos from Arnhem showing 20mm's used in the ground role against the paras.

Keep in mind that SPR is a highly dramatized movie. Spielberg used what would look good, not what would make sense. Personally I thought that the last battle was a very good case of "what not to do" by the germans. Let me see: unsupported armour in urban setting, check; uncoordinated attacks, check; exposed heavy support weapons without infsntry support, check; tank hunters used as assault guns against infantry, check…

What do you mean by 'unsupported?' Do those thirty or so guys who came down the street with the Tiger not count as 'support?'

I have photos of that actual gun (taken at the War & Peace show a year or two after the film), also the "Tiger" was on display at Bovington for a few years and i have shots of it too.

I poked around about this the last time that it came up. Apparently, the Germans used the 20mm as a super-heavy machine gun quite a bit. In the absence of a .50, this is vaguely sensible. Its big advantages are range and penetration of moderate cover.

I the classic "Company Commander," MacDonald's unit is regularly harassed at night by a 20mm.

What Plynkes said. It's not that they didn't have support. My problem is that they bunched up on the street around the tanks (not out ahead of them) when they should have been advancing through buildings as much as possible and using the tank as support. But as was also said…it was a movie and the good guys need some bullet sponges to shoot at. Still, the use of the flak was fun to watch and it did give the good guys at least on tactical problem to overcome (which Reiben solves with his BAR from above)…regardless of whether Speilberg intended it that way or not is a whole other question.

I asked about the 2-cm 'very heavy machine gun' units myself a while back. Over on the Axis History Forum a few folks posted various bits and pieces that helped put the units into perspective. Quite a few were raised later war, some it seems from straightforward renaming of existing Fla units (the Fla it seems differentiated them from 8,8-cm cannon equipped units, or Flak) that had been around since early on in the war, armed with 2-cm AA weapons under Army control.

The late war very heavy MG units mixed 2-cm, 2-cm quad and 3,7-cm weapons, could be mobile or semi-mobile, and were expected to be able to fire in ground or AA roles as required.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the scene in Private Ryan, or the demise of the disposable paratroopers. Can't recall if those Germans were supposed to be PzGrens, if so they would have normally had a decent allocation of LAA available, though ideally SP rather than towed. Suppose there was a bit of shortage of pickup trucks in 1944 France to shoehorn one into as in more modern times!

Gary

I've acquired a fair bit of 1/32 German stuff with AA weapons and I was wondering to what extent it was ever used late-war in the ground role.

Eg I wouldn't have thought the Ostwind's long 37mm would have been much use against a Sherman frontally, but OTOH, the output of fire and the repeated impacts close to things like tracks and vision blocks might have been very offputting fpr those inside.

The 37mm explosive round might have been quite handy too.

So I was wondering really, as there's so little stuff at sensible prices in 1/32, if I ought to build a sort of improvised AA unit of Ostwinds, Wirbelwinds and 20mm that keeps finding itself in skirmish actions with enemy paratroopers and what not. It seems like it could and did happen.

Tim: Did you get my PM response?

On topic: I would think the ain limiting factor for using these as infantry support would be the ready availability of ammo. Carting these around as giant HMGs would mean infantry having to hump a lot of heavy ammo to keep them in action for very long.

Still, there is no denying that coming under fire from these would be terrifying to say the least.

it isn't Witman's tiger ..see
link
it was knocked out by a rather novel side shot at point blank range by a firely the further two knocked tanls are a PzIV and a Tiger

@ Plynkes: The armoured vehicles attacked isolated from each other, and the infantry was bunching behind them. The right way would be for the infantry to go first, and the tanks to support it. Isolated attacks only give the defender a chance to defeat each one piecemeal.

@Ditto The Abdominal Snowman: Wittman did not have any infantry support at the time, while the officer in charge in SPR elected to send tanks first, infantry second. Wittman was probably very keen on adding to his Knights Cross, and not too concerned in losing a few (irreplaceable) Tigers!

Consider: Wittman was doing very well until he entered the town. It was then when he started losing tanks, for very little gains.

Quite right, WIttman has knocked out by Pappy Worthington's tanks in a cross fire in an open field much later on.

Witman did brilliantly , all on his own , while driving in the town..his tank was knocked out , forcing him and his crew to bail out , on his way out , by a six pounder AT gun..He was kilometres away when the second attack was shot up in the street..again I urg you to look at the After the Battle book..

Very good book that, most impressive research.