"Historicon 2012 - don't bother" Topic

And move it where???????

>>>I recently heard a rumor that all the nearby hotels are sold out. If thats true it tells me an insufficient quantity of rooms were available…

Thus proving that no location is perfect and only that. A fourth hotel (Hyatt) will be completed next year.

DM

I live in northern New Jersey and unfortunately, the drive to Fredericksburg involves taking the dreaded Rt. 95 corridor. With all the construction in New Jersey and the Baltimore tunnel, along with driving around Washington, my ride has gone from a little over 2 hours to Lancaster, to around 6 to 7 hours to Fredericksburg.

To me, that is just to much of an increase to justify the drive. However, there are still two other conventions for me to attend and I will just enjoy those.

As much as I am upset at the move, I understand why the decision was made, but the big question will not be in how many less gamers show, as the falloff may not be that great. The real question will be how many less GM's show up to run an event, as many events were run by northern gamers.

At present, there are around 400 games run at Historicon, but if there is a great decrease in games, that will impact the convention significantly. Let's hope that is not the case.

Lou Cardinale

By my count, there are 48, repeat FORTY EIGHT hotels in the Fredericksburg area around exits 126, 130A and 130B,so there are plenty of places to stay for those of you who are going.

Granted the three most sought after ones filled up lightening fast after the official announcement was made, but not to worry, there are loads of them in the area.

So every time you go to the dealers room you drop the goods in your car ( temp 98+ F) OR leave the Con and drive back to your hotel. Same applies if you run a game and head for a beer.
No more ,having a few beers and walking to your room after a late night game…

I've never stayed at the con hotel.Yep I drop my purchases at the car after each purchase(98+F).Never had any problem with the figures or my self melting or anything(if that was your point)
As for the beers can't help you there(I don't drink at the cons much).I would assume you know your limit.

I've also never had any problems getting all my Flea Market stuff in to the cons and out and it usually is a lot of stuff, at least as much as any GM would have to bring in.

The off site hotels are usually a lot cheaper too.A lot cheaper.

Although my commute from Buffalo has gone from 6-7 hours to a possible 10 I will still come.

An extra 3 hours each way is a small price to pay.

With all the construction in New Jersey and the Baltimore tunnel, along with driving around Washington, my ride has gone from a little over 2 hours to Lancaster, to around 6 to 7 hours to Fredericksburg.

Okay, we have our first reason not to move the convention to New Jersey.

Depending on the time, the tunnel through Baltimore should take you all of 3 minutes if that. Then take 301 to the con, and skip the traffic (again, if you go during rush hour, there will be traffic, if not, you will cruise right through).
Kevin

my ride has gone from a little over 2 hours to Lancaster, to around 6 to 7 hours to Fredericksburg.

4-5 hours from Lancaster to Fredericksburg? Maybe during a snowstorm!

It's 4 hours 19 minutes taking I-95 on Mapquest from Trenton, NJ to Fredericksburg, VA. Avoid peak times and you can probably do better than that, especially if you drive with a "liberal" interpretation of the posted speed limit, not unlike many drivers on that roadway, if my impression is correct.

Colonel Bill 27 Sep 2011 4:56 a.m. PST

…………

Not asking for an answer, just something I've wondered about.

*NJH: I've also wandered along that path.

>>>>>No more ,having a few beers and walking to your room after a late night game…

Throw-away styrofoam cooler: $3 USD
Ice: $3 USD
Adult beverages: $10 USD – $20 USD

Laughing your off with friends you only see at conventions: Priceless

I'm in Fredericksburg at the moment attending a toy soldier being held tomorrow at the FCC.

According to the folks I've spoken with here, the three hotels on site so to speak are just about sold out for the show, which is pretty amazing considering the show is about nine months out.

The FCC itself is much larger than I thought, was in there today, it's huge, plenty of room for both the vendors and all the games.

Food on site could be dicey at best, but there is a Wegmans within walking distance which has already been pointed out, not to mention there are literally a ton of restaurants both along the access road to the FCC and in both directions off of the main road leading to the FCC, if you can't find a decent place to eat down here, I don't know what to say.

As far as other hotels in the area; there are a few in the area beyond the main three, others too but you've got to get onto 95 either north or south to get to them.

All in all, the location should work just fine……….

Actually, there is quick access to downtown Fredricksburg by following Fall Hill Road over the interstate (it is the one behind the Hampton Inn & Suites). Some great restaurants downtown as well. In regards to hotels, there is a Mariott Courtyard in the Historical district (on Caroline St) quite a number of bed and breakfasts etc. And access to them is good without ever getting back on Route 3 or the interstate.

I just returned from a business trip there and became much more familar with the area. The site really has potential!

Double G 08 Oct 2011 2:07 p.m. PST wrote:

I'm in Fredericksburg at the moment attending a toy soldier being held tomorrow at the FCC.

is much larger than I thought, was in there today, it's huge, plenty of room for both the vendors and all the games.

Food on site could be dicey at best, but there is a Wegmans within walking distance which has already been pointed out, not to mention there are literally a ton of restaurants both along the access road to the FCC and in both directions off of the main road leading to the FCC, if you can't find a decent place to eat down here, I don't know what to say.

As far as other hotels in the area; there are a few in the area beyond the main three, others too but you've got to get onto 95 either north or south to get to them.

All in all, the location should work just fine……….

THanks for the update George. Please post more once you get home next week from the convention.

VR
James Mattes

No problem James, will do some more looking around and post some thoughts and Doug is right, there are more hotels along route 3 heading towards downtown Fredericksburg, plus more in the other direction.

Hmm, maybe there is still time for the BOD to address the "food is dicey" part. Nothing wrong with being proactive. I'll bring it up on the HMGS forum.

Jason
Stafford, VA

Jason,
Wegmans is right there, easily within walking distance, but for the vendors in the dealer hall and the gamers who are not able to get out, I hope they do address it…

The CC caters dinners. I wouldn't think food or drink would be dicey, but ask. One never knows.

Bob Coggins

Those of you with the I-95 dreads, I have put an alternate route thread on Conventions forum. Feel free to add to the discussion. More information will help a lot of people and what's really important are those who know the traffic difficulties. So jump over guys and give us the skinny.

"The CC caters dinners"…….

That's great Bob, so does the VFCC, and the food there the past two years was God awful, not sure what your point is.

I attended a show there this past Sunday; having sampled the food there the year before, we decided to go get food this time.

There is one food court area in the convention center, they will probably set up stations like they do at the Host and like they did at the VFCC, that is my best guess.

Convention center food is convention center food. I doubt it will recommend one facility over another. Certainly the fact that they serve rubber chicken dinners means little.

There are dozens of restaurants literally 5 minutes from the FCC. Why eat the convention food at all.

A quick Google check found 68 hotels within 10 miles of the FCC. And at price points for any size wallet.

Double G,

The point is gamers will not starve, though I would not be surprised were the prices higher – they've gotta make-up for the half-price rental deal. I did rather think the drink cart at VF was a good idea. We should suggest the same at FCC.

As for me I never ate at the Host or VF food stations, nor did I ever eat at the hungary porker the Host set up in the lobby. I did get coffees, a few beers and a rather unpretentious though quaffable wine otherwise my friends and I like to eat at real restaurants such as the Capital Grille in KoP.

Bob Coggins

If they set up a food station and ask me to pay $10 USD+ for a poorly-made sandwich, a bag of chips and a can of soda like the VFCC did, I'll be taking my business outside the convention center, whenever possible.

The site needs to realize the very different nature of Historicon over any other convention, which I touched on in an earlier posting. The CC can make plenty of money based upon the large quantity of food and drink they can expect to sell, but only IF it's decent food at a decent price.

I have gone to HMGS cons at the Host long enough to have seen a fair improvement in the food quality, while the price has been kept to reasonable increases. This is one area that I think they've done very well, especially compared to what we've seen at both the VFCC and in the past at the Eisenhower/All-Star.

Hmmm… it will add an hour for me as I live up by Erie PA on the lake…. Erie…. get it?

Anyway, it is an additional hour for me making it a grand total of 7 hours instead of 6.

I think it is moot… as probably do all of the others from Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc… It will add about an hour to all of them too.

Not so much a big deal to me. I really just can't see someone being upset. My ride has ALWAYS been at least 6 hours, which is also much, much longer than most of the people complaining.

I think a centrally located position that meets the needs of the show and fits the membership demograph would be ideal. I am not saying FB is it, but as a member, you should look to what is best for the organization, not our own desires.

The only bad thing about the demographs is this…. the current 5 year reflection would only show redundancy of the situation up north. I am sure that for every person NOT going because of the move, there is another from further south saying… THANK GOD!!! I can finally go!!!

I think combing the records of HMGS memberships would not help either… it is a regional thing. Many members are members because it is convienient, others have dropped their membership for whatever reasons (we don't need to get into it now, stay focused). No matter how you slice it… a member who quit because of an extra hour or two drive is not a person I would want as a member anyway. It is very selfish to complain about a 3-4 hour drive when many others who drive much farther.

You will all see, the new demographs COULD surprise us all…. membership could plummit or it could surge with the move… any way you cut it, the Host is just too small for Hcon any more. We will have to wait and see.

I understand many people are angry about it moving further away, but lets see what it does for the organization. If it has a negative impact, which can only truely be seriously evaluated after about 3-5 years, then the BoD would see it and do what is best for the organization. The people volunteering to do all of this stuff and set it all up are not bad people, I am one of them… I wil be CD for Fall-In next year. I am going to do what it takes to grow the show and make the show worth while.

I guess all Iam saying, is give it a chance. The volunteers are not trying to do anything bad to anyone. It isn't as easy as some of you would think. Just because it is "volunteering" does nto mean easy, cushy job with too many perks. These people work hard to bring a good show. Maybe some have agendas, maybe they don't… I certainly don't. I have gone to HMGS shows for years and finally find myself at a point where I can give something back to the organization.

Am I to be crucified because I am tyrying to think logically. If the BoD looked at all of the information available and then chose a reasonable location for the show… what is the harm? You cannot please everyone all of the time.

I say give it a chance.

Reasoned discussion? On TMP when the topic is where Historicon is going to be located? You cannot be serious!

"All he is saying…. is give FB a chance…"
YouTube link

LOL, hey, I had to try right?
HMGS means a lot to me. I have been going to shows for many years, starting with Origins 82, I was 12.

I know this isn't that long compared to some of you, but I have always been thankful that I found HMGS. I know the people work hard to make a good show. We also know it can be factional and agenda serving for many at times too…. but in the end, we still get good shows. I haven't been to one I had problems with, ever. I accepted them for what they were.

Change is hard, but it is also sometimes necessary for the betterment of the whole. I know the organization might not get it right the first time, but they do and will, because they care too… to devote the time and then still have to bear the burden of all of the attacks and such… but there is no better feeling than seeing it all come together and seeing the people doing what they do… Have fun, game, shop… spend quality time with friends from home or friends from far off.

HMGS is a great organization. It will never be perfect, nothing ever is. Factions will rise and fall as will agendas and personal interests… that is part of life.

The FCC is only one hour farther for me, coming from Columbus, OH. I've already got my room.

Dan (Poniatowski),

Glad to hear you'll be taking the baton from Andy to serve as Convention Director for Fall-In 2012. Fall-In has been a really nice show and I'm sure you'll do a great job. Many thanks for taking the step from the already demanding Events Manager position to that of Convention Director.

All the best!
Scott

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but as a member, you should look to what is best for the organization, not our own desires.

7 pages, 333 posts – best phrase of the lot. Agreed and thank you.

Dan,
If you keep posting like that, you may just be nominated for the board. Just saying……
Kevin

LOL, I think the current BoD is doing a fine job. I have been nominated before. I take it seriously, just not enough support. That is a subject for a different discussion though.

I have been pretty keen on watching where the BoD would take Hcon. There is no "sure thing" and we all know that. I always thought a little further west and south would be good, but then you have to consider the population densities, etc… On the coast would just be wrong for so many reasons, first off, you cut off 180 degrees of travel and then have traffic congestion to consider. You want it inland enough to entice people in my area and a tad beyond, while NOT taking it too far away form the huge population centers.

The considerations for an "ideal" site are just so numerous, you can never get it perfect. I look at some of these sites and think… what were they thinking when they designed these places? While others may be state of the art, but are a logistics nightmare for travel.

Like I said… I'll keep going as long as I draw breath… it is my biggest hobby at the moment, always has been, probably always will be.

I don't go for the site, the food, or the off convention areas. I go to see friends and play games. I think no matter where they moved, I would make it. See you at Fall-In, and remember, don't let people change tables !!! (-:
Kevin
PS On a side note, now that I know who you are, you would have my vote next election, so be prepared. I'm not sure that is a good thing…

I am sorry about the table issue last year, but I had nothing to do with most of it. We had a few cancellations so we had requests for peopel to move their games out of the dungeon (Host rooms) and into the D-Fink. I handled that part, anything else was the on site staff. Inevitably my fault though, I will be more hands on this year.

Got my room yesterday. Just re-reading this for the fun of it all.

Why? Look, H-Con is a great Con. But poking this animal with a stick is just being a er. Really. Why stir the pot on this one?

Eric

A few words.

1) Most important I think it is really an indictment of the hobby when we get into these things, and I will say, an indictment of how much we have allowed the corruption of the political rhetoric in America, to infiltrate and infest our attitudes toward each other-- fellow hobbiests, and (one would think) real and potential friends. It seems that the slightest deviation from what we want, be the "we" whoever it is, means that the object is taken as a personal attack, and that the person who deviates from or questions our opinion is conceived as a less than human enemy who must not only be destroyed but obliterated from the memory of man. Anything can be said against him and no charge is to outrageous to be levelled. Further, when an initial assumption is proved wrong, the original assumption must now be restated, amplified, magnified and the attack made even more vehement. It's the old "Admit nothing, deny everything, and attack!" I have seen these for years, been a part of a few, and have realized how essentially pointless they are.

I think a better tack would simply to treat each other as friends, and when someone does one of these just smile and say "That old XXXXX, here he goes again!" and let it be.

2) I think that we have to accept that people have likes and dislikes and that they may not like what you like does not mean that they are condemning you. Because a person chooses not to go to Lancaster, or Valley Forge, or Fredericksburg, or Timbuktoo, or Katmandu, or Whoopdedoo does not mean that he is a vile sub-human, but simply that he doesn't want to go to that place for whatever reasons actuate him. At the same time if the HMGS wishes to go to these places, that's their right, and the proof will be in the pudding. If the whole career of "He Who Must Not Be Blamed" and the Baltimoe fiasco proved is that there is life beyond the convention and beyond HMGS. The question of "loyalty" to HMGS is really a moot one, as we each individually owe HMGS or "the hobby" absolutely nothing save what we choose to give it, and that if we choose to give it anything, that is entirely our own decision and counts as meritorious only to us and those else who wish it to count-- for them. So if a person wishes to go to wherever he is free to go to wherever or not.

3)We really should have a file of threads on TMP. This one could be saved and invoked like footnotes in a scholarly papers as the person and arguments don't change. We could call it "Diatribes against the new location" shorten it like Papal Bulls to the first two words "Diatribes against" and let those interested go and read it. As I said, Baltimore, the Host, VFCC, now Fredericksburg, it really doesn't change.

4) If there is a consensus of dissaffection among the players in the North East with regard to their treatment at the hands of the allegedly conspiratorial Board/Convention Directors coalition, then they already have several small conventions they can attempt to build up to large onee or start their own.

I wish to go back to my first point which is that what is far more damaging to the hobby than moving the con around is this sink of acrimony and vituperation that we seem addicted to, and that is poisoning the air wherever. Do not for an instant think that you can leave this behidn when you walk into the convention hall (wherever it is.)

Oh yes I forgot

for the record

I live in NJ and I am NOT going to Historicon this year simply because my life has been too hectic since Sepetember of last year with an MIL in the nursing home, my wife in agony and just completing back surgery yesterday, lots of repairs and problems with my rentals, and my company deciding they would like to acquire another one. This has impacted my attendence at all HMGS conventions last year.

I might go for a day but we shall see.

If I do go I'll go by way of Gettysburg or wherever I have to to avoid the beltway.

Just 2 far for us but do enjoy.

Looking forward to the Convention this year being closer to the center. Great Camping site just one exit south of the FCC check it out cabins are available a lot cheaper then a hotel.
Just remember there are worse places to be if you get my drift.
JH

One of the problems with internet communication is that sometimes, the nuance of what you are trying to say gets lost.

The "fun of it all" was supposed to be dripping with sarcasm.

I just don't see how people can get so twisted up about it. I mean, I understand loving the convention. I do, too. But if you love it so much, you'll go pretty much anywhere its held. As a very wise teacher I work with is fond of saying: "If it is important to you, you will find a way. If it isn't, you will find an excuse."

I understand that some people just can't make it. I thought I had no chance at all of going this year. Now I might be able to do so. Doesn't really matter to me where they hold it. I don't go for the hotels, or the food, or any of that. I go for the games, the gamers, the dealers, and the flea market. As long as there are plety of those things… it will be a fun time.

I go for the games, the gamers, the dealers, and the flea market. As long as there are plety of those things… it will be a fun time.

Now that's just crazy talk!

I just got my hotel room (using points no less!).

I am not thrilled with the move, especially since of live just NE of Philly, and I also think thatif it is located in South central PA, or Maryland (central or western)it will be more centrally located for both the New Englanders and the Carolinians to attend.

That said, it is Historicon, and I am not going to miss it if I can avoid that. I have misssed only one or two over the last 20 years or so.

My boys and I are looking forward to it.

LIG, I don't really know why you are so adamently opposed to Fredericksburg. This is no longer the "land of taters, rattlesnakes, and alligators" in Yankee speak of old.
I was right there with you at H-Con 2009 trying to fight off Pete's slide show which just kept firing away. I liked what you were saying about Baltimore and the mini-event sort of reinforced my misgivings.
I also did not like the last minute rush to Valley Forge, but I guess we had to have it somewhere. Right now that somewhere is Fredericksburg.
For almost twenty years I drove, and still do, to Lancaster from just outside Leesburg VA. About a liesurely three hour trip with some sidetracks if interested. There is a lot to see in VA and at Fredericksburg you are within an hour of Williamsburg and Richmond. Petersburg with its new museum is about 25 miles farther. 4 battlefields lie in and around Fredericksburg. Yorktown is close to Williamsburg and Jamestown.
No one knows if this a permanent set up. We know that Maryland is not very welcoming to us for some reason. You want to go back to the Philly area? How about NYC? Northern NJ is a little far but I would try it at least once.
I don't know where you think this could be realisticly held but I think other ideas would be welcome. If you think about what Pat said, Historicon left the DC area wargamers behind for over 20 years. And we haven't complained that much. Lancaster was nice, but Lancaster is fast becoming past history for Historicon if not eventually the other two shows. Give it a try. We'll welcome you with open arms.
Maynard

Here's a crazy idea. Let's have 3 regions-NY-NJ-NE; Mid-atlantic including VA; and the Midwest. Those interested come up with a viable possible location or locations in concert with the BOD search committee. Maybe that will channel some of the self interest into a good outcome. A little competition that will spread out the search work load some. We might try all three or only one and give everyone a chance to have a closer summer con.

Do the rent cars in Baltimore make right handed turns?

Let's see… fly to Baltimore turn left to get to PA or turn right to get to VA…

Tough decision for those of us who fly in anyway…

I find all this complaining about moving Hcon to Fredericksburg pretty funny. I have driven to the convention the past few years from Wisconsin! If you want to complain about a long drive let me know when your commute reaches 16 hours one way. In previous years I even flew first from California to Wisconsin then drove from there to PA. I didn't mind because it's a great convention! All these folks complaining they won't attend because the new location is at most a few hours more away strikes me as awfully sad. You are either dedicated enough to go or you aren't. If I can drive 16 hours to attend why can't you drive 2 hours more?

Plus as far as I am concerned the convention centers in Lancaster and King of Prussia were utter crap holes only barely tolerable. This new location is almost brand new and it's in an amazingly historic Civil War town.

Of course irony being what it is This June I am moving to within 40 miles of Fredericksburg. This year at least my commute will go from 16 hours one way to less than 45 minutes and I can sleep at home overnight. :) I think I deserve it after multiple 1600 mile drives.

I guess the easy solution is to rotate north and south each year to make everyone happy. I was going to join HGMS today but may wait and see what kind of people are in here. I am going because it is a 3 hour drive and it is my first convention. If it were up north probably wouldn't since I have no idea what to expect. If it is everything I have been told yeah I would rotate N to S each year.

Fredloan, You should join, then you will be the kind of people there.
I am a member, and I like that I am the kind of people there.
I would like it if you were there too. It would make HMGS that much better. We always need good people.
Now someone is going to tell me that I should become active in the politics of HMGS (shudder).
Seriously though, the only way to make a difference is to become a member, be vocal and vote. Maybe I should do more of the latter two.