"Historicon 2012 - don't bother" Topic

MURPH!!!! Even though I think we may be on opposite ends on this issue, it's still nice to see you!!! I hope all is well with you and yours.

Pat Condray said:

But it had definite weaknesses that were exaggerated by having the deal negotiated by a guy in Indianapolis on pain meds.

Pat, once again…Pete lives in Fort Wayne and NOT Indianapolis…150 mile difference there…

LIG! Howdy! PM being sent to ya….

I'll say this – if Murphy is going to Historicon 2012, then I may have to publicly recant, apologize and go to Historicon 2012. I owe that man a dinner.

And for ALLLLLLLL of you "Conspiracy Theorists" out there….
You KNOW that "somethings gotta be up" when LIG and Murphy are being "buddy buddy friendly like" and chatting in PM's…

muah hah hah….

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain….

And for ALLLLLLLL of you "Conspiracy Theorists" out there….
You KNOW that "somethings gotta be up" when LIG and Murphy are being "buddy buddy friendly like" and chatting in PM's…

There's nothing you can say that will diminish my respect for you. A man's wealth is not measured in this personal riches, but the friends he has. Bowman, you, and quite a few others prove that I am one of the richest men alive.

So now Long Island Gamer is the victim ? You have to be kidding me. You are the guy who has been calling for "boycot"of the event and the hope that it fails just because you dont like the location and your mad at the HMGS folks. You will do everthing in your power according to you to ruin hundreds of other gamers time so you can feel better about your misery . WOW

LIG, you really are a hoot. You throw a giant hissy fit and then cry foul when someone calls you on it? Too funny.

" Anyone that wants to contest the system is going to be made fun of."

I really don't think that's true at all. It isn't that you and CC disagreed with the BOD or the con in general, it was the level of unreasonable animosity and anger (not to mention a LOT of incorrect statements) that you two professed. Nobody else in this thread that wasn't happy about the decision has been given any grief at all because they stated their feelings in a more reasoned way.

"But in truth, look where these people come from – DinOfBattle comes from NC, Mitch Osborne comes from VA and Pat Condray comes from Florida. These are the people that are calling me all sorts of names – trying to make this personal."

Location has nothing to do with their replies. But regardless of where they call home they shouldn't have stooped to insults-- it really doesn't help anything.

Bottom line is Historicon is happening in Fredricksburg because that was the best location out of the ones the board had scouted somewhere along the way. It wasn't any kind of Southern evil plot, or gamey nefarious scheme, and especially it wasn't anything negative purposefully aimed at any particular people or area of the country. Saying that it was is at best just a trifle over the top.

Long Island Gamer,

The boardgame convention may be smaller overall than Historicon, but the HOST is already sold out next year. I know one of the board members, and he mentioned they are beginning to consider their options for the future. I believe they are signed to stay at the HOST through 2015.

So now Long Island Gamer is the victim ? You have to be kidding me. You are the guy who has been calling for "boycot"of the event and the hope that it fails just because you dont like the location and your mad at the HMGS folks. You will do everthing in your power according to you to ruin hundreds of other gamers time so you can feel better about your misery . WOW

And that gives anyone the right to make this personal? Guess what – this is America. I have the right to free speech. I didn't make fun of anyone – just said the BoD did a terrible job – and I still believe that. Yet the people I listed earlier seem to want to take this to a personal level. No problem – game on. All the more reason I'm going to do my best to ask everyone I know to stay away from Historicon.

The boardgame convention may be smaller overall than Historicon, but the HOST is already sold out next year. I know one of the board members, and he mentioned they are beginning to consider their options for the future. I believe they are signed to stay at the HOST through 2015

The convention I'm thinking of isn't in the Host. I'll find out more and post about it.

LIG, you really are a hoot. You throw a giant hissy fit and then cry foul when someone calls you on it? Too funny.

So Mitch, other than Trolling, what do you do when mommy lets you on the computer?

I flew from Dallas, TX for my first ever Historicon back in 2004. TMPer Bad Painter (hey Dennis!) went out of his way to pick me up from Harrisburg airport and drove me to the Host (I didn't have a valid DL yet). It was an excellent convention for me in spite of spending only two days there.

I went again in 2005 and this time around I drove myself from Harrisburg airport to the Host and back. It was five days of solid fun.

I haven't been able to go ever since. I'd gladly go to Fredericksburg if I were anywhere in the continental US in July next year.

So, the more important question is whether the costs to the vendors will decrease so that more vendors will show up in 2012 than 2011?

"Guess what – this is America. I have the right to free speech."

Actually, no you don't. The Constitution limits the ability of the government to restrict or sanction expression. Private concerns have much greater leeway in regulating access, assembly and expression within their organizations. Thus if WOW or the TMP Admin doesn't like your posts, you can be dawghoused or banned. Similarly Yahoo Group admins can do likewise or moderate everything you post.

And if HMGS perceives your and CC's posts as threats or worse, the chapter can do likewise up to an including a restraining order. Snicker if you will, but no less than the President of the Massachusetts Bar has noted the unbelievably low burden of proof threshold of these things, which are enforceable across state line per the "full faith and credit clause."

Now I personally think it both ethical and healthy for an organization to allow for a full diversity of ideas and opinions. I also personally believe that should be the case here as well. For better or worse you and CC have established yourselves as the legitimate face of the opposition, and for those sitting on the fence its good they can see for themselves how enlightened and well reasoned your thoughts on the subject are. So by all means please continue.

Finally, I don't think anyone on this thread or without is going to change your mind. However, I do hope all of us consider one further aspect of this move. Given the financial hit HMGS getting out of the BCC contract and the increased costs of going to VFCC, it is not outside the realm of possibility that a successful boycott could drive the Chapter into bankruptcy vice returning north of the Mason-Dixon. As one poster has already noted, be careful what you ask for.

Otherwise I would suggest we have not entered into "wrestling with a pig" mode on this thread and it is time to let it die.

JMTSW, YMMV

Bill Gray
(who is speaking only as a private person, and NOT as an HMGS officer, period)

If I go, and I probably will, I'll just take an extra 2 days to drive. I live in Baltimore. (I know, not far, but I really hate driving). I'll take an alternate route to avoid DC. You can say the DC traffic ain't bad, but I think it sucks…but a new venue might not be a bad thing…

One of the outraged Jersey/PA posters has suggested that New Jersey would be a logical compromise between PA and VA.

Being a native American speaker the words "logical" and "compromise" don't seem to have any place in that context, except for the totally irrational Carlos/LIG maxim that the important thing abut HISTORICON is that it must and shall be in PA (or they willing to "compromise" on NJ?).

It has been a long time since I've visited NJ.I do seem to recall that anything anywhere near the shore was prohibitively expensive in the summer (though I have campted on dive boats between dives there.) And I've never been quite sure what went on in the rest of NJ. But there were those weird traffic circles and now I'm told that you can't pump your own gas.

However, instead of simply ranting about how HISTORICON absolutely has to be in PA (or NJ?) and to move it anywhere else is a crime against humanity, you might want to scout the glorious PA and NJ locations where you think HISTORICON could be held. Look into deals for meeting space (facility infrastructure in HMGS speak) and room nights. Don't for get parking. Figure on at least 3,000 people, and no less than 90,000 square feet of msfi.

We might be willing to wait in line to fill our gas tanks and go around endless traffic circles if the deal is good enough. And you could present your findings to the BOD for 2013.

But remember, for many of us how close it is to your driveway is largely irrelevent.

Pat Condray

Pat,

In all honesty, Lorimer doesn't sound particularly outraged IMHO.

Regards, Bill Gray

> And I've never been quite sure what went on in the rest of NJ. But there were those weird traffic circles

Most of those are gone, which is good since you out of towners don't have a D*MN clue how to drive in one. (the fact they were a bad idea to begin with notwithstanding)

>and now I'm told that you can't pump your own gas.
You can't – but gas is still CHEAPER here then any adjacent state. One of the few perks to being in Jersey. (no self serve and cheap gas) (oh yeah, those gas attendents hustle their butts here, the gas stations don't make money if the pumps are not pumping gas!)

As for a con in NJ (at least near the shore) during the summer is a non-starter, the costs are prohibitive that time of year. Having a con in the winter months would be great though.

Pat, dont' forget adding multiple hotels within walking distance of the site and gourmet food becasue that is what it appears some of the people want. And of course an international airport plus train and bus service.

And a shrubbery!

There, official Monty Python reference

EOT

I wonder if the OP was expecting the Spanish Inquisition?

Of course not, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!

And a second MP reference, just for good measure…

Eric

A couple of pages back someone mentioned that HMGS isn't "East" and that it never was set up to be that. Then why are there other groups out there basically covering the entire country and why don't we move the conventions around the country every few years? (California here we come!!)

Just trying to understand the actual organization and purpose of having regional groups and saying that East doesn't exist.

Hey LIG I dont see where I got to personal with you a bit . I do indeed feel you have all the right in the world to express your displeasure with the events in question . However I also think it is more then a bit counter productive to attempt to destroy a good time for others just because your ticked off . What do they call that ? Do you really think that is nice or fair to everyone that wants to go ? If you dont think that you have gone to far then I will truly pray for you .
God bless, Mark

LIG wrote: "These are the people that are calling me all sorts of names – trying to make this personal."

Making it personal, eh? Let's see…

LIG: "the Board spit in the face of the people who have supported this convention. I hope people like Bill Grey (who had nothing to do with the decision btw) are proud of themselves… They should hang their heads in shame!!"

LIG: "Sorry – this was a direct slap in the face."

The record then is that LIG made this personal right from the start. (Also for the record, I've never called you names. I've made fun of your actions.)

There is no point in discussing substance with you because you have shown absolutely no inclination to listen to any viewpoint opposed to your own. Or to admit the possibility that the BOD is doing the best that it can in the aftermath of the BCC fiasco, with all of its consequences. As Pat Condray put it "Any port in the storm."

So whenever it suits me, I will continue to make fun of your angry, humorless hypocrisy. Although it is not nearly as amusing as sparring with Jim McGaughey. Now there was a worthy opponent.

And if anyone cared to check, you would see that I always recommended that Historicon stay at the Host. I was cured of "Next levelism" a long time ago.

I always desired for the show to stay at the host also. Being somewhat of a hotel snob --(hampton snobberty as opposed to motel six level) I was always surprised at the level of complaints some voiced concerning the hotel?
I was adamantly against Baltimore and may not of went with OG --my concerns are different then most?
Vally Forge was fine -- hampton I would not have attended and once again for reasons that are more business related and different then the average person.
OG will give this new venue a try and see -- its better then not having a show and once again I have a different set of concerns and goals?
As far as trying to apply motives to peoples actions and thougts --?? -- I really do not see the point without a memo, smoking gun, etc?
regards
Russ Dunaway

PVI,

I believe that when HMGS was first created and incorporated, no one realistically conceived that it might become national in scope by the establishment of other chapters. However, it informally evolved that way as other groups of gamers across the country liked what they saw and sought to emulate HMGS, Inc's success, to include using the HMGS trademark.

A National Board was created with a representative from each chapter, but its primary if not sole purpose was to be the approval authority for new chapters to use the HMGS trademark as they were created. There was no long-range, national plan to create or expand into a formal, coordinated national organization with combined governance. HMGS, Inc adopted the East tag as an informal way to distinguish itself from other chapters. Likewise, while East's so-called territory was considered the Atlantic seaboard states from NC thru ME and Canada, anyone, anywhere could belong to any or as many chapters as he wished.

The National Board no longer meets and thus HMGS, Inc as trademark holder is the likely candidate for chapter approval. Otherwise, there is little relationship between chapters other than the HMGS trademark and the reciprocal recognition of membership.

Regards, Bill Gray

I look forward to the giant new convention starting in upstate NY. I might even brave traffic and miles of obstructed highway to check it out, depending on what the dates are.

I am pretty sure in the sea of humanity that is Historicon a few people will not be missed, no matter what grand contributions were made by those individuals. I am sure that should a hole be noticed in one year it will be made up the next by some other group or individuals. Always seems to work out that way.

Of course, if just 12 people show up (though apparently the on-site hotels are already running out of rooms, so this is not going to happen) then those 12 will have great bargains in the dealer hall, though I suspect the flea market will suffer.

I am surprised that someone has not complained that there are too many battlefields within proximity of the venue, meaning that they will become brainlocked trying to decided where to go (Chancellorsville has a nice visitor's center and you can do most of the battlefield in 6 hours if you walk fast and follow the maps, though I ended up having to drive Jackson's route and missed a small corner as it got dark. The visitor's center at Mary's Heights is small, but nice. The main Fredericksburg battlefield is really long).

Flicking Wargamer,

The main Fredericksburg battlefield really gets it longest if you were one of the unfortunates who were storming Marye's Heights.

Thanks for the kind words Mitch. Your camera is worth 40,000 figures on the field. :-)

Here is a thought no one is addressing. The simple truth may be that the Host does not want us back during the summer. I am sure many have long heard that rumor as well, and it seems true given how quickly they booked up, supposedly to 2014 (not sure if that is inclusive or not).

Soooo, given the Host is not available/really interested in having Hcon back, what are the alternatives? I'm not crazy about Fredericksburg, but I will go. Not sure if my friends will, but I hope so. If Fredericksburg doesn't work out, then where?

There are so many posts, I am not sure if LIG and others opposed offered a realistic alternative. I'm betting no since every alternative is well known, discussed, researched, beaten to death, etc.

I'm sure every alterative has been beaten to death so the horse is not just pulp, but just dust in the wind.

Here's the deal. It's a hobby. We are a fringe from "mainstream" hobbies. Like, say, sports collectibles.

We're just not that special. We only spend so much money and create only so much revenue.

Let's stop taking ourselves so seriously. The world isn't going to end if LIG or anyone else comes or doesn't come to Historicon.

Enjoy it for what it is, move one, etc, etc, etc.

Colonel Bill 26 Sep 2011 7:30 a.m. PST

……

Snicker if you will, but no less than the President of the Massachusetts Bar has noted the unbelievably low burden of proof threshold of these things, which are enforceable across state line per the "full faith and credit clause."

Bill Gray

*NJH: Don't put a lot of faith in the "ff and cc" of the Constitution. If it were as enforceable as you may think, then all the states would recognize gay marriage. Each state has a lot of autonomy, and the only way the "ff and cc" can be enforced to make sure all the states are on the same page regarding the Constitution is by having the Supremes make it so with a ruling. Even the federal judiciary in the various federal districts can provide opposing rulings. That's when the Supremes step in and make it uniform across teh country.

Good grief, I thought the ACW ended ages ago, seems not.

The world isn't going to end if LIG or anyone else comes or doesn't come to Historicon.

It is Historicon 2012 we're talking about, let's double-check the prophecies, just in case.

And some of us aren't going to boycott the con with righteous anger and furious indignation. We're just not showing up. The rest of you can all have fun.

I will attend. The drive from south Florida is a bear no matter where the BOD places the convention. This cuts my drive from 19 down to 15.5 hours. I intend to run the Battle of Fredricksburg at the actual location of the battle.

I think the FF & CC works in this instance fine, but you are correct nevertheless. It isn't totally foolproof and the gay marriage thing is an excellent example. If a gay married couple moves to a state that doesn't recognize gay marriage (yet recognizes all legal marriages from other states per the FF & CC), can they get divorced, can one of the two count as a spouse for benefits?

Another one I saw was the couple legally married in one state, moved to another where the marriage was recognized, but given the wife was still considered a minor in the new state, guess what happened to hubby when they conceived a child?

Not asking for an answer, just something I've wondered about.

Regards, Bill Gray

Mary's Heights is just one part. The Confederate lines stretch quite a ways from there.

Wandering through the woods at Chancellorsville makes one wonder that you could fight a battle there at all.

Viscount Eric , That is a very civilized stance on the subject .
Thank's! I hope to have fun .

Bill (ACW-type, not Colonel-type);
It could be more of a bear, you have to drag Mickey's carcass up with you. And I say we just blame Scott of all of this. Hope Hurricon was good for you.

Eric

I recently calculated several alternative routes to Fredericksburg from the Northeast to allow him to avoid I-95 and the Baltimore/DC Metro areas. According to mpaquest, both of these alternatives add less than 1 hour to the entire trip (and remember Mapquest uses the speed limit and does not take congestion into account. Here are my results, all starting from 287 at the NJ/NY border as a comparison (Riverdale, NJ selected):

I-95 5 hours 33 minutes

US 301 from just inside Deleware into VA and cutting over US 3 to town. 6 hours 29 minutes

I-78 to I-81 to I-83 (at Harrisburg) to US 15 South. US 15 into VA to US 17 to I-95 one exit above Fredericksburg. 6 hours 19 minutes. The latter adds a few miles, but is a fairly rural beautiful drive.

I've been going to Historicon for almost as long as it's been in existance. Very happy going to Cold Wars and Fall In. I don't need a 3rd convention and will be avoiding Historicon due to the distance, added expense and just plain hassle.
I'm sure many others in the NE feel the same way. After talking to dozens of people that is the majority reaction…

^That's been the reaction I've seen as well. The revisionists are already trying to spin it as "The greatest Hcon ever!" and are hard at work trying to discredit the dissenters, but people will vote with their wallets, even if they don't post on TMP…

The revisionists are already trying to spin it as "The greatest Hcon ever!"

I don't think I've seen this. I've seen some people who are happy it's going to be closer to them, but that's about it.

…hard at work trying to discredit the dissenters…

What I've mostly seen is people saying "go or don't go, that's your decision". If you disagree with the decision to move Historicon to Virginia, you have to offer viable alternatives. This has been mentioned multiple times on here, but so far nothing has been provided.

…people will vote with their wallets, even if they don't post on TMP…

Which applies for both those who will now be going because of the move, just as much as it does who will not be going because of the move. Only the final attendance figures will help us know if, in the end, it was a good idea.

While we will miss all of the folks that will decide not to attend due to the distance/change in location, early discussions with folks in the South show great support. At a recent show and through email discussions, I was comforted by the number of Southerns who are planning to attend. Many of these folks have not supported H'con in many years but are planning on attending in force and are already planning games.

With the move, we may see a large group of folks that have not attended before, or who have not been consitent attendees show up from KY, TN, GA, FL, SC, NC and even VA. Time will tell in regards to numbers, but early conversations indicate lots of support.

firstvarty1979 has it right. If you hate the decision of the board so much then get out there, do the work, find a new place, get all the cost info, and present it to the board. I am sure they would much rather have a gift horse presented to them than just the extreme whining they usually hear. Or better yet, start a convention up in NY to compete with Historicon. If you draw all the dealers from up there to it so much the better for you. Some of the conventions I went to in GA were planned, advertised, and run by one guy. He did it for the cash. He usually cleared a few hundre bucks or so after expenses. If you think there is such a groundswell to have a convention at the same time further north, go for it. We all wish you the best.

I recently heard a rumor that all the nearby hotels are sold out. If thats true it tells me an insufficient quantity of rooms were available…
If the convention does moderately well be prepared to see all of them moved there eventually. Then I'll just buy product over the web. I'm not starved for gaming since we've been doing it here for 25 years…

I recently heard a rumor that all the nearby hotels are sold out. If thats true it tells me an insufficient quantity of rooms were available…

All the rooms in the VFCC the past two years were sold out, as were all the rooms at the Host before that. Do you see where your logic fails?

There are roughly 3000 attendees at Historicon, and even we say that half of them are day-trippers and of the remaining 1500 they all share rooms with one other person, that would require 750 dedicated rooms nearby, which very few sites would be able to accommodate. (The VFCC hotels have 488 rooms, and the Host has 319 according to their websites.)

I doubt we'll be leaving the HOST anytime soon for Cold Wars or Fall-In. We have not outgrown the HOST for either of those two shows, and the HOST is usually not busy those weeks, so us being there is more money for them.

"While we will miss all of the folks that will decide not to attend due to the distance/change in location, early discussions with folks in the South show great support."

Had it been moved to Boston, "early discussions with folks in New England" would have shown great support, too. That's to be expected.

In any event, it will take at least two years to evaluate Fredericksburg. If there is a big drop-off in attendance, the adherents will blame it on a bad economy. If, however, the drop-off is permanent, then perhaps they'll get a clue.