"Historicon 2012 - don't bother" Topic

I am in CT and as others have said now we have to negotiate NYC/NJ traffic and now DC area traffic which will make the drive a whole day affair opposed to a half day trip as it was before it moved.

It's a 10-11 hour drive for me from Indy to Fredericksburg and it would be a 12-14+ hour drive to Lancaster/VFCC if I would've gone…

We all have to face "traffic"…

LIG, what's the beef? Is it just distance? Remember when people got together against Baltimore? That was too far south for some. Read some of my rants on convention threads on how we should consider NY, NE, Ohio, MI, IL, and even PA and NJ. I live in VA and I have supported northen cons for 25 years. I don't care where the con is except when it costs an arm and a leg. That's the part that gets me. Come on down to a very historical area. 4 major Civil War battlefields in that area alone. And a boatload more 50 miles further south. The con has to be somewhere if we're going to have a summer con which has been a tradition for a long time now. We'll see how the deal goes down but let's don't rip it until we know for sure. I don't have the sense here of a small group jerking us around like I felt at BCC and VFCC. I think it's time to get over some of that. I'm tired of thinking about it. We gotta move on at some point. Hang in with us.

What really needs to be done is to draw up the boundaries for the various HMGS groups out there. What does HMGS East cover? Does it go from Maine to Florida? They are all technically "east". If you are in California then Nevada is east. If the specific geographic regions were laid out then people could see what the actual area was and what area is central to everyone.

At one time I thought that there was a listing that showed "which states each HMGS chapter covered." IIRC HMGS East covered the Northeast and down to the Carolina border…

The main point should be no matter how long some members threaten to hold their breath or stomp their feet Historicon is still going to Fredericksburg for at least a couple of years.

By the sound of it some of the great gamers aren't going to make it, other new ones are, and a few everyone will be glad don't show up will miss it!

Page Four and growing… keep it coming lads, 600 posts, that's the goal.

If we aren't at 600 by Monday we are not trying.

tankette 23 Sep 2011 7:50 a.m. PST
Hey folks, it's HMGS EAST…

Think what you will. HMGS was and is incorporated to support the hobby of historical miniatures. Other groups sprang up later, some failed others are doing okay.

BUT there are three conventions that are the working and draw more than any other convention. Fall In!, Cold Wars, and Historicon.

The organization has dues paying members, more than any other Historical or miniature organization.

East? East of what? is not Florida not east of California? Is not Colorado East of Utah?

Really dude HMGS is not just the original 13 colonies.
VR
James Mattes

Group I know from Norfolk are organizing for Fredericksburg.
There are 6-10 of them, and none have been to historicon for quite a few years. They have attend Cold Wars.

Hiere's a little factoid. It looks like sometimes in the last half of 2009 or first quarter of 2010 the HMGS site removed the "East" from their webpage. If you go to the current site and look up HMGS chapters you will not find an entry for "East". Looks like they want to be the national organization.

HMGS was never set up to be East. Look at the base documents.
VR
James Mattes

Going back to all the complaints, I remember in 87 when we were first discussing the move up to PA. Bob Wiltrout and I were sent North to reconoiter and see if it would make any sense to move North. I remember the outcry from local DC gamers and the folks from Raleigh. Back then if you would've done the demographics for HMGS about 80% of the folks were in the DC metro area. Folks from DC came up and attended the PA convention. Many weren't happy at first, and it sure wasn't easy convincing Coggins or Wally Simon, however that soon changed.

Now that it is moving again, I hear more outcry. This time even nastier. Now of all the options that were listed at the members meeting, this is the one that I thought would be the best.

For the Record, I live just outside Baltimore but work just outside DC, so I get to drive in 95 traffic everyday. (OK, sometimes I take 295 instead.) Valley Forge is probably a little closer for me, and York would've been really close, but I think Fredericksburg is a good choice.

Jeffinho

James is correct. The actual, original, on the documents legal name is Historical Miniatures Gaming Society, Inc. The informal term HMGS East was coined to distinguish us from other chapters that began to appear. The Board decided to go with the legal name a couple of years ago on the advice of counsel to avoid trademark issues.

Regards, Bill Gray

I will never attend if it stays in Virginia. At the ColdWars Board meeting I plan to stage a general protest during the meeting. I will be as disruptive as possible.

The members of the HMGS deserve better. I am disgusted.

kyote- keep us informed on the con in november. I will be there for sure and will try to bring some friends. i think I made most of the TwisterCons and brought friends every time. cfuzwuz

Carlos
Why?

We pay X amount every year to be members of an organization which disregards the majority's opinion in favor of putting the con in the heart of the godamn CSA.

I live in Philly. I drive to Lancaster for CW, and that's about the limit of my patience. VFCC was great, and its a shame it can't be there, but I understand. The Host is unavailable. I understand. But this is a grand betrayal.

I'd rather there be no Historicon this year at all then give it to VA…

And I will make my opinion known, as I have a right to do, at the members' meeting at ColdWars.

Oh.I pay to be a member too.When did they take a vote to find out what the majority wanted?
So a 45 minute drive is the limit of your patience? Wow.
And if you won't go no one else should go and enjoy a nice con? Huh.

You do have a right to make your opinion known though that is true.Good luck.

Carlos, LI

It is a good thing that you weren't around to protest, when it was moved out of VA/MD in 87/88. I think you should come to the meeting and protest, but I think it is going overboard to be as "disruptive as possible." That will be disrespectful to the other members. Have your say. Say it again, but not disruptive.

When I had a major disagreement with the board, I went to each of the board members (well 5 of the 6)personally. I discussed my beef with each of them in depth. I also stood up at the meeting and said my piece, but in a reasonable manner. If you are disruptive, you will push people who are neutral on the matter into the other camp.

I didn't like the VFCC, but I went and ran games there. For me the closest venue would've been the BCC – only 10.1 miles from my house. That would've been convient for me, but not for HMGS. To reiterate what I said before, when we moved from the DC area, about 80% of our members were from the DC area. Lots of them felt the same way you do now.

To state that you rather there be no Historicon than one in Virginia is … not going to reply to that, but that is over the top.

Don't forget that HMGS is incorporated in MD. Not PA, Not NY, not NJ.

Whine, whine, whine.

In one way or the other I have been around HMGS-East for many years. In all my life I have never heard so much whining as with this group. Pull up your big boy undies and move on. Things change. Done.

HMGS, while it has made mistakes, works hard to bring this hobby some good events and opportunities to connect with other gamers. The conventions have always been good. Sure there are hiccups. Sure there a locations that have not been optimal. But overall, they have been something to look forward to every year.

So, now the trip for some may be a little longer. Big deal. Will the traffic be worse? Maybe, maybe not. Will you have a good time? More than likely. So what is the real beef?

There was complaining when the con went to the Host. There was complaining when the con went to Timmonium. There was complaining when the con went to Valley Forge. Now there is complaining as it moves to Fred'burg. My guess is the same old complainers will appear if it moves again.

Time to stop the whining and have some fun.

From Mike5510 – Your going to see a lot more boycotts by us Northern folks. You guys have been trying to get this convention moved South for a long time. Well you got it.When the dealers total up their receipts at the end of the show You'll see who spends the money at these shows It's the Northerners Not you boys from the south.I've spoken with lots of my friends from Conn. Mass.Vt, RI. Maine and Long Island and we have a collective message for you. STICK IT.

Reply – Really? "STICK IT"? Threats? Boycott? Jeez, I'd rather not have this lot show anyway. The cons are about having fun. Can't have fun when someone is all red in the face and complaining.

Like ma and pa always said, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

Thanks to all those that work hard to provide a good event for us folks. I have volunteered at a couple of the smaller cons and know how hard you work. Nothing can ever be perfect, but you guys do a good job while we get to play games and have a beer or two. Keep the good work regardless of the petty grumbling.

Regardless of whether you want to boycott or be a good soldier and go where you are told or something in between, facts are still facts.

I've talked to a bunch of gaming buddies, all of whom go EVERY year to EVERY HMGS con, and all swear they are not going to VA. This isn't me saying what I will do…I am likely to go. But a lot of people are unhappy.

Yep. I love the people that come here and say "You're not allowed to disagree. Just go and support the con."

I don't want the Kool-Aid, y'all can keep it.

Hey mike5510
Where in the world did you pull the northerners spend all the money crap from? Are you even remotely serious? The arguments just get more and more delusional.

Well usin poor southern boys willins just have to save the money wez gets sellin eggs on the side of the road sos the dealers can aford to come south.

Hey carlos your back.You didn't answer my question.When did they take that vote?

civildisobedience said: But a lot of people are unhappy.

A lot of people were going to be unhappy no matter where the con went(:

Read the 8oo-something post thread. Read the dozen other threads that came up. Talk to people at last year's.

Prediction: The con moving will prove a financial disaster and it will quickly come back up North. BOD disgraced, as usual.

Reality check.

HMGS was established in Wally's Basement in Wheaton MD in November of 1981. At that time of those present who signed the sign up sheet there were 2 from Massachussetts, 3 New Yorkers, 1 from New Jersey, 8 Marylanders, 5 from North Carolina, 2 Virginians (most Marylanders and Virginians were from the DC suburbs)and, oh yes, one Pennsylvanian.

The first two conventions were held inside the DC Beltway in Alexandria VA. the next 5 in Prince Georges County MD. However, to find a reasonable price for a large enough facility, we moved HISTORICON 87 to Camp Hill PA. We did not move there just to find Pennsylvanians or New Jerseyites. The first convention named COLDWARS was held in the suburbs of Baltimore, but quickly bounced to Camp Hill.

There was one nominally HMGS convention in New York City called NYCON in 1983. It was fun, but didn't make any money and was not repeated.

The original support base included mainly the Triangle Simulation Society of North Carolina, The COURIER clique and the associated Old Colony Wargamers in Massachussetts,and New York Wargamers. Also, mostly, Potomac Wargamers in the DC suburbs.

A couple of years ago in a fit of collective insanity the BOD opted to move HISTORICON to Baltimore, then broke the contract and moved ot King of Prussia PA. But the facility there realized that there were more suckers engaged in high stakes gambling than playing with toy soldiers, so we got the heave ho.

As to chapter boundaries, after other chapters cropped up, I remember the North Carolina bunch worrying that they might be traded to MIDSOUTH when that chapter began in 1988. But we have never dictated such trades.

For practical purposes HMGS "EAST" (the descriptive term I used after the Annapolis Convention of October 1990 defined chapters) ran from New England to the southernmost border of North Carolina.

There has never been anything in the ByLaws that says HMGS Inc. Conventions have to be held in Pennsylvania, or even co-located with the most sore heads.

I believe that convention rules do provide for the removal of disorderly people by security. Most recently this was proposed when the HCC at, IIRC COLDWARS 2010 announced the establishment of unwanted and overpriced 10' square booths in place of reasonably priced 6' linear tables. One dealer had some "EXTORTICON" t-shirts made up.

In defiance of the U.S. Constitution among other things we were told that we couldn't wear them. Some lunatic in authority wanted the constable to remove the perpetrator.

Annoyed as I am with the prices of the local hotels in Fredericksburg, I am confident that the move was dictated by valid criteria. York has no local hotels. The HOST is busy and lacks adequate (in my opinion) parking. VFCC is a gambling casino. Hampton Roads is more G.U. (Geographically Undesireable) than Fredericksburg.

I don't want to go into what's wrong with BCC-besides, it isn't in PA either.

Pat Condray

"I believe that convention rules do provide for the removal of disorderly people by security. Most recently this was proposed when the HCC at, IIRC COLDWARS 2010 announced the establishment of unwanted and overpriced 10' square booths in place of reasonably priced 6' linear tables. One dealer had some "EXTORTICON" t-shirts made up.

In defiance of the U.S. Constitution among other things we were told that we couldn't wear them. Some lunatic in authority wanted the constable to remove the perpetrator. "

Threatening people now, are we? I can assure you I won't allow any Brownshirts to accost me at the convention.

The people will vote with their wallets, and with their voices. The next Historicon will be an abject failure, God willing.

I wish ColdWars all the best, though. It's always been an underrated con, and this year it really has a chance to shine.

Ah ok.So the proof is
a)some guys who posted on TMP
b)your buddies you talked to at the last con
Got it.Thanks for clearing that up.

I might have to actually go to the membership meeting at the next con.Just to see you in action.I'm sure I'll be very impressed.

From Carlos – Yep. I love the people that come here and say "You're not allowed to disagree. Just go and support the con."

I don't want the Kool-Aid, y'all can keep it.

Reply – Sure disagree. That's fine, but what is getting expressed is coming out, in some cases, as threats and warnings. That part needs to cease. For those that don't like the new location they can respectfully state that point. They can even offer alternative options. And when the final decision is made, if they do not like it don't show. It's simple. All this who ha is not necessary. If the numbers of attendees is way off, the BoD will now that am may need to consider a new location.

No one needs to drink the Kool-Aid or is being to.

"Some guys"? The response on that thread is 99% anti-Fredericksburg!

But why let the facts get in the way of what you want.

I encourage you to come to the next one. Maybe if more people did we wouldn't have a BOD that made decisions like this.

"is coming out, in some cases, as threats and warnings"

I haven't seen this. Has the Black Hand hatched a plot to assassinate the BOD? Anarchist bombers, perhaps? Maybe a fatwa has been declared?

There have been no threats. Just honest Americans standing up for what's Right.

Actually somewhere in that 800 post nightmare I went and counted the responses from the dealer/vendor thread,the GM thread and another "Will you go to Fburg" thread.
It came out like 75% said they would participate in Fburg.

But don't let the facts get in YOUR way.When your ranting you don't need facts,just shock and awe.

"I will be as disruptive as possible."

Sorry Carlos, you are the brown shirt.

"But don't let the facts get in YOUR way.When your ranting you don't need facts,just shock and awe."

That's his RIGHT as a Mericun!!!

Wow, some of you guys need to move to bigger states to get a little perspective! They used to hold the con in Lancaster? Is that right? That is only 160 miles from Fredricksburg. I drive 180 roundtrip to see my mom all the time. And that's just 4 COUNTIES in Okla. I think you have had it good for to long. A one way trip of 500 miles with good friends should be no problem. Went to Orgins many times with friends. That was 1,200 miles one way. Had a blast on the way up. Tired on the way home.

Some of the griping is probably about the extra cost. I understand that in these tough economic times.

All I can add to Conquest Charlie is:

I for one think Carlos and LIG are the same guy ? :) Funny I know plenty of folks from the NE that say they will be coming to F-Burg . In point of fact some of my cousins and there friends from the Rochester ,NY area will be meeting me and my brother there .

P.S. Carlos Fredricksburg was not the heart of the CSA ,Richmond was .We'll at least Richmond was the capital anyway .

Conquistador Carlos,wrote:

Oh who cares what he wrote, really! Do a search on his posts on TMP. Sock puppet, but I do not know all his post have a gray box over them.

Just another drive by shooting.

Man up dude,

And asking for God's intervention? You can't be serious! God is on the side of the largest Battalion! You post on the Napoleonic board mostly (and that speaks volumes in its self) and should know that.

Must be an Empire IV player!
VR
James Mattes

CC wrote – We pay X amount every year to be members of an organization which disregards the majority's opinion in favor of putting the con in the heart of the godamn CSA. I live in Philly. I drive to Lancaster for CW, and that's about the limit of my patience. VFCC was great, and its a shame it can't be there, but I understand. The Host is unavailable. I understand. But this is a grand betrayal.I'd rather there be no Historicon this year at all then give it to VA…And I will make my opinion known, as I have a right to do, at the members' meeting at ColdWars.

???????? Easy there. The war's over. You might want to find a more relaxing hobby.

DM

Pat Condray wrote – There was one nominally HMGS convention in New York City called NYCON in 1983. It was fun, but didn't make any money and was not repeated.

Pat,

You must be mistaken. How is it even possible to not make money with that population density and everyone happy about it not being at the end of a long drive in the "heart of the GD CSA"? ;)

DM

>>>>>Sorry Carlos, you are the brown shirt.

There are lots of brown shirts……………..and shorts evidenced by the distinctive aroma.

DM

Regardless of where it's at, a road trip with friends is always a fun time.

Maybe LIG and Carlos don't have any friends (I can see why – with that kind of grumpy attitude) and have to make the longer drive by themselves.

And anyone who wishes the con (any con) to fail – get real. Just because you're angry, you want it to fail so the rest of us who are still going to enjoy it have it taken away. Pathetic.

By the sound of it some of the great gamers aren't going to make it, other new ones are, and a few everyone will be glad don't show up………

Be careful what you wish for. A bunch of you have have stated how good Historicon will be, if only the "whiners" like LIG don't show up. Let me tell you a little about LIG. He co-GM's tournaments at all three HMGS-E conventions. During Historicon, he works hard to ensure that 30-40 players enjoy themselves by having everything run smoothly. Some of those on this thread have played in these tournaments. Being an excellent painter himself, he helps judge for the "best painted" awards. During Historicon, that usually involves 3 days work.

I would imagine that his contribution to Historicon matches or exceeds that of those piling in to attack him. I won't pretend to agree with everything that he has written or said, but the whiff of self righteous indignation coming from his detractors, gets a little stale too.

And no, LIG and CC are not the same person.

Carlos ? Your upset because YOU may not be able to daytrip to a major national con? Life is tough all over.

I *think* I know who he is too bowman.
I really do wish he would come but if he won't thats his decision.
But to feel "betrayed" and spit on? and to want the con to fail? Come on.If he is who I think he is its really not worthy of him.
If the con had gone to Hampton I wouldn't have gone.But would I have come on TMP and started a spittle enhanced rage rant/boycott? Hell No.

And for all those predicting the financial disaster of nobody showing up.
I go to Willaimsburg Muster in February and a couple hours south of Fburg.Its a nice size con and there are a lot of enthusiastic gamers there.Combine that with a larger venue, the Hcon name and a July time and I think you have a winner.

Another thing I don't get.PA still has Fall In and Cold Wars.Besides Hcon being a little bigger the only difference I ever had was what month of the years it was.I think I actually prefer the other two to Hcon.So whats the big deal?

I for one think Carlos and LIG are the same guy ? :)

If you think that then I invite you have the admin check IP addresses. Maybe he'll do it anyhow – and I welcome it.

If you want to take shots at me – go ahead. I'm a big boy with thick skin. I expressed my opinion – some have disagreed and that's the beauty of free speech. I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it.

Personally, I don't think being disruptive at the members meeting is going to help. I would strongly discourage it because the meeting is generally in a small room and can get out of hand – and someone could get hurt. The BoD knows how I feel and that's the best I can do. Some of my best friends disagree with me on this, and that's the beauty of friends – they like me despite my shortcomings. The decision has been made. As I see it, there are three options:

1) Don't go

2) Don't go, convince as many as you can not to go and find an alternative

3) Go

Am I missing anything?

4) Don't go ,hope the people who do have a good time and go to Fall In and Cold Wars instead

But to feel "betrayed" and spit on? and to want the con to fail? Come on.If he is who I think he is its really not worthy of him.
If the con had gone to Hampton I wouldn't have gone.But would I have come on TMP and started a spittle enhanced rage rant/boycott? Hell No.

For the record, you probably do know me. I was mad at the decision, I blew up and that was it. Should I have stepped away from the keyboard – yes. Am I wrong – on some level. Did I think this thread would carry on like this? No. I deliberately stayed off TMP for a few days thinking everyone would just call me a jerk and this would die down (BTW – I've never been afraid of or held it against any who thinks I'm a jerk at times. Even Bowman and Murph are probably shaking their heads calling me a beanball for starting this ;)). I never meant to see this carry on like this.

Let it die. I'm wrong, I'm a jerk, I'm a fat slob, etc. Just don't carry this to a personal level.

4) Go and convince as many as you can to go

Oh, I made a 5. Sorry

In defense of LIG, it sounds like something I might have done too. It is easy to use this forum to vent, but hard to retract things when anger has died down. I love going to Historicon no matter where it is because I'm coming from CA anyway. Strangely, the move probably has much more impact on those that live closer since it may determine whether or not attendance is feasible. I thing that the convention will be lesser without the passion of those here who obviously enjoy participating. Hopefully time will heal the wound of feeling betrayed and LIG will make his presence felt at Historicon in a positive way. If not, I hope he continues to enhance the conventions that he does choose to attend.

I think you should come to the meeting and protest, but I think it is going overboard to be as "disruptive as possible." That will be disrespectful to the other members. Have your say. Say it again, but not disruptive

For the record, I've never advocated being disruptive. It's too easy to get out of hand then someone gets hurt or arrested – usually an innocent party.

If you want to be disruptive in a meeting – think of this. We have ALLOT of older gentlemen that are not capable of moving too fast. If you trip or someone pushes you and you accidentally hurt someone, could you sleep at night?