"Historicon 2012 - don't bother" Topic

I see 99% approval v 1 threatened boycott.

Epic Fail

Your going to see a lot more boycotts by us Northern folks. You guys have been trying to get this convention moved South for a long time. Well you got it.When the dealers total up their receipts at the end of the show You'll see who spends the money at these shows It's the Northerners Not you boys from the south.I've spoken with lots of my friends from Conn. Mass.Vt, RI. Maine and Long Island and we have a collective message for you. STICK IT.

I understand LIG's frustration.

I realize the thread is just going to be a taunting match between those upset at the move and those happy about it.

I am not a fan of the bod AT ALL. I think it was one irresponsible and arrogant decision after another that led to this. Nevertheless, I suspect they had themselves so cleverly worked into a corner that there was no other viable option at this time.

The truth is I will probably go, but that chance of me not going for whatever reason is much higher. I know that a fair number of people who usually go will not.

If Historicon had been an event that moved around…one year in PA, one year in VA, one year in NY, then back…it would be one thing. You'd always have people wanting it more convenient for them. But when something is in one basic spot for 25 years there is a different dynamic in play. Of course people who have come for many years will be upset by the change.

With all due respect to the esteemed attendees from far away, this was the situation when you got involved. Just like someone from the NE who goes to a regional convention elsewhere. Would it be reasonable to go to a convention in VA for 5 or 6 years and then start screaming it should move to Connecticut because you have been making the drive? Would you be surprised if all the people who attended in VA didn't come to CT?

As I said, past foolishness may have left no alternative, but no one should be surprised if there is a further reduction in attendance and in dealers.

"You guys have been trying to get this convention moved South for a long time."

I've been coming up from NC for HMGS events for about 11 years and have NEVER seen or heard anybody campaigning for any of the cons to move south. Away from the Host and to a "better place", yes, but nobody was advocating any specific area for it, either at the cons or on the HMGS forum. Any proof for your assertion aside from how you feel? Just curious…

Jerry

"I see 99% approval v 1 threatened boycott."

You are not going to see much threatened boycott. You are just going to see a lot of people quietly stay home.

NAzrat PROOF how about timoin in Balt. How about the mess were in thanks to Panzarri's attempt to move to Balt. There is plenty of proof if you just look at it

Mike5510, Is Baltimore South?

All the NE based whiners will miss a fun convention, but no one at the convention will miss them. You're not as important to the convention as you think you are. Poor babies don't have the nads to drive South of Washington DC.

Come on, sma. That's not helpful at all.

I think that this year it will be down no matter what the location due to the turmoil of the move, but what happens in the long run if this is a better location than the Host or VFCC? You never know until you try. I want everyone to come and the dealers to profit which ensures future cons having success. I just don't understand the territorial bickering.

I live in Philadelphia. Valley Forge was perfect for me- a 20 minute drive. I will not attend in Fredericksburg.

But what is the point of a childishly ranting that because it's further for you the BoD acted inappropriately? If it's closer for you, it's further for someone else. Are you really so narcissistic to think that way?

I'll be there.

Early so I can revisit all the battlefields.

Muleshoe's my favorite.

DM

Now, yew Yankee boys quit yur whinin' and come on down to the con."Y'all be nice" as my mama would say.

For goodness sake,all this fuss. I'm just glad that we have a place and a date, so we can firm up plans. From the time the problem appeared, it seemed pretty clear that Fredericksburg was likely to be the winner, at least for 2012. We'll be driving from Connecticut, and the move will add 3 – 4 hrs to the drive time. I can understand that might be too much for some… and yet it will move it closer to others who may go for the first time. There are still 2 HMGS conventions in Lancaster after all! Of the group I hung out with at Historicon, those of us from CT easily had the shortest drive; many of them flew out from LA to attend! Although less convenient, it will make my transit time about equal to most of the others.

As for wishing the organization and convention ill out of spite for not being accommodated, that's a stance unworthy of further attention.

Grits on the breakfast buffet

"Y'all have a nice day now!"

Fewer hateful yankee types (c'mon now.. y'all promised!)

What's not to love? Hope the FoW tourney's a good one and I'm there!

If there is a void, then someone will fill it.
If it was a mistake to move south then they will move back north.

It will all work out, don't worry so much.

Your going to see a lot more boycotts by us Northern folks. You guys have been trying to get this convention moved South for a long time. Well you got it.When the dealers total up their receipts at the end of the show You'll see who spends the money at these shows It's the Northerners Not you boys from the south.

Well based on my over 30 years of living throughout the South, and seeing the amount of steady rivers of Northerners THAT MOVE to the South as opposed to the very small trickle of Southerners that move to the North, I'm not really sure why you are whining.
Based on the amount of snowbirds that come down here, (aka "DAMN YANKEES"), and stay, and then complain because it's not like "Noo-Yawk,or Philly, or Joisy" I'd say that that it's a non issue. For petes sake, even your own "Jersey Shore" is filmed in Florida!

I've spoken with lots of my friends from Conn. Mass.Vt, RI. Maine and Long Island and we have a collective message for you. STICK IT.

Would you like to give names so that we can understand and define the term "lots"?

Simply put; It's HMGS EAST, NOT HMGS-Pennsylvania, New York, or NORTHEAST. You still have TWO of the THREE Conventions…

Based on the debates here, and me looking up the choices and any other possible choices, I didn't see much of a choice in any other place that was valid in some way.

I didn't see a choice for New York, or New Jersey whatsoever.

And for those that keep beating the dead horse and arguing FOR "the Host"…you seem to keep forgetting that "The Host" didn't want it…

Plus, don't forget that there is always the chance, mind you, that the BOD will move it again, next year, if it isn't as successful as people want to think. This may be a one year stop gap measure…

Crikey folks…I'm trying to budget and plan to come, and for me it's over a 12 hour drive, (and some folks have WAY more), so stop whining about that. So you "have to drive down around DC"…big whoop…I have to try to make it through that hell-hole known as "West Virginia"….
I can hear the banjos now….

I live in Philadelphia. Valley Forge was perfect for me- a 20 minute drive. I will not attend in Fredericksburg.

You have very little patience for driving, I assume? You should be able to drive to Fredericksburg in 3-4 hours tops during non-peak hours (leaving in the late morning and getting to the convention in the mid-afternoon). That's not bad if you ask me, and it's what me and everyone I game with has done for nearly 20 years to get to Historicons past at the Host and the last two years in Valley Forge.

When I moved back to Pennsylvania in '89, Historicon was literally about 4 blocks from my house at the old Penn Harris – I walked to it. Then it moved to Lancaster, about 45 minutes away. Then to Valley Forge, about 2 hours. Now Fredericksburg, about 3-4 hours.

Maybe I'm a sap because I keep following it and having a great time every year. Since the move from Lancaster its become a mini-vacation for my whole family. My wife and daughter, neither of whom game, were excited about going when I told them it's in Fredericksburg since it's a new location they can explore (and where they can shop) while my son and I game.

Although I am not going to attend, I hope all goes well in Fredericksburg, for the good of the organization. For the past six years I have traveled 6+ hours from southern New England to attend Historicon for a single day. But the move means that I now have to not only deal with the I-95 heavy traffic from New Haven to I-287, but BWI congestion as well. I just don't see the new location as a plausible drive for a single day -- and I have traveled long distances for a single day at the con (seven or eight 5000 mile trips from Hawaii to PA over a 20 year period… granted I was visiting family as well).

I thought a PA venue was equitable for many -- those coming from New England had the CT-NYC traffic and those from the VA had the BWI congestion. Now, it seems to me that the New Englanders have both problem areas -- I am not sure about choke points for those coming from points south.

I also find the deliberations to be a bit opaque. HMGS collects lots of info at the conventions (which keep non-preregistered attendees in long lines prior to getting in) and have info on the preregistered attendees but I have not seen any discussion using such data on the HMGS Yahoo group or in the minutes (which I find a bit sketchy at best). If the data is never used, why spend money on a registration system to collect it? -- indeed why collect it at all?

In any event, those are some of the considerations that went into my decision not to attend. Nonetheless, I hope Historicon does well. I'll content myself with Cold Wars and/or Fall In (it will be interesting to see if CW/FI attendance increases).

I've attended at Valley Forge, Lancaster and Gettysburg and would have attended at any of the other sites (probably even Hampton). I can understand not attending for various reasons however rooting for the convention to fail out of childish pique is unfathomable.

It would not be a bad thing for Fall In or Cold Wars to gain attendance as Cold Wars is already the most profitable show and more Fall In attendance would go heavily to the bottom line as well.

As best as I can understand Pat looked up the room rate for the adjacent hotels. If it is not simply the normal rate and if we negotiated it, $141 USD seems a bit high. Especially considering when I attended Historicon the convention rate at the Crowne Plaza (a very acceptable hotel) was $109 USD before PA's taxes. Its retail rate listed on its website was about $205. USD There is no doubt this convention rate was negotiated by Bob Guiglio. Congrats!

I suggest we find out whether anyone thought to negotiate a convention rate or whether or not $141 USD is the standard rate.
As best as I can understand there are lots of hotels within easy driving distance of the FCC other than those across the parking lot. So, if that is the convention rate, I have no doubt that a little negotiating with other hotels which HMGS can easily promote will result in a discount significant enough to threaten the adjacent hotels' business.

The hotel business is cutthroat and empty rooms are death to hotel managers. Numerous hotels and there are a lot of hotels in the vicinity will have no problem cutting the rug out from under the $141 USD rate.

As Pat can confirm D.C. is a work week hotel town filled with M – F parasites who fly in to conduct business with the Federal Government. On the weekends, and D.C. weekends usually start on Friday, the govt closes and the parasites go home and hotels are left with few customers and lots of empty rooms.

If the adjacent hotels and the CC are seperate there is no reason to promote them on the HMGS site. Rather subject to negotiation those hotels which provide a good rate should be promoted.

A few weeks ago I negotiated a reasonable rate of $99/night at a harbor front hotel and after a few momwnts spent with the chain's general manager and the hotel manager I was informed by a desk clerk I could have a room at that rate whenever I desire.

It's not that I am any better at negotiating than the next guy, it's just I have previous experience and knowledge regarding the hotel business.

Bob Coggins

You know Pat you do not HAVE to put me in every thread you post to on TMP. You get tired of ranting about Bob G. and decided to move on to someone else?

It is getting a little old especially when you say things I never said or give me credit/blame for all the past transgressions of HMGS. Over the years there have been many on the board who felt it was time to move Hcon.

Yet you seem to think I am the sole person who poisoned the organization's collective mind. I have never attended Origins or Gama and drank the poison Kool-aid from those evil doers. I wore a button that said "Move Historicon Now" and the whole board and many members said "Hey I never thought of that, what a good idea!" Hardly.

You want to take me to task over what I think or have said? Do it directly. I will be glad to respond. I have said that Hcon could never grow beyond what it is without moving. IMHO. Yes I have always said that the Host was a dump, it still is.

Pat you wrote:

The HOST doesn't want us and has lost parking. Besides it lacks the marble tiles and hot and cold running chambermaids so valued by James.

and

In the unlikely event HISTORICON returns to the place James Mattes hates most in the entire universe.

Hardly Mogadishu ranks just below the Host, (not to be confused with the toxic inducted mutant monster that killed people in Korea in the movie by the same name) but I will say that it was much safer moving from airport to the Pakistan Stadium than crossing Highway 30 in front of the host.

Traditionally chronological adults who play with toy soldiers have not aspired to being the last of the big spenders (though exceptions like Mike Cosentino and James Mattes do exist.)

For the record Mike C. is not a big spender! As far as I know neither he (nor I) send convention directors and their wives and other board members to Origins on HMGS's dime. Please refer the minutes of HMGS which you so love to quote so much and back in our day were actually written to capture what happened in Board meetings and who voted for what, not works of fiction written long after the fact and then amended long after to chance the facts.

To expect to attend a convention, such as Historicon and have working restroom visit the dealer area and not a fire trap run down tennis barn, without air-conditioning, does not have mold in the rooms, have working elevators, handicap accessibility, but does have working clean restroom and actually has a staff that understand the convention, it's needs and realize that costumer service is important is not expecting too much.

Here is some more ammo for you. I have attended some of those governmental conferences and conventions where the muffins cost $10.00 USD and dinner was $50.00 USD a plate. I even paid $100,000 for security for a conference in Dallas not too many years ago. Guess what, it is the price of doing business in some cultures and corporations. That does not mean HMGS needs to go to Dallas to five star hotel or Denver downtown or the Willard In Washington DC and so forth.

But who wants to travel many miles to attend a convention at a location better suited to a cat show? The year Cold Wars shared the facility with the cat show should have been a sign from above. It was time to move. They (HMGS) should have never changed the name of the Flea Market for Cold Wars and Fall In! at the Host, it is only fit to host cat shows and flea markets.

Oh to forewarn you I will be bringing a "Move Fall In!" now button to my next convention. I will bring one for you with my autograph on it. It is my next target
VR
James Mattes

Long Island Gamer , You are the most miserable person on this board . I thought you said on the last thread you where not promoting a "BOYCOT" ? WOW !

Murphy 22 Sep 2011 6:20 p.m. PST wrote:

Well based on my over 30 years of living throughout the South, and seeing the amount of steady rivers of Northerners THAT MOVE to the South as opposed to the very small trickle of Southerners that move to the North,

Murphy you do not want to open that can of worms. Back on the post from hell about where will Historicon be there were some who still live there that believe most folks live in the NE more then the SE, or Midwest. I did a lot of reseach and even put together numbers of gamers in different regions. I did not post it as I thought it would be an other food fight. I hope no one takes you to task over it.
VR
James Mattes

My approach is so diametrically opposed to the original post it is hard to fit in the same concept.
I have attended Historicon from Maine, Northern NY, Williamsburg VA, and now Western NY. I will attend as long as I am physically capable and have the financial wherewithall. I REALLY like Lancaster and think the Host is fine.
That being said, I was planning on going to Baltimore to make the best of it, attended VF both times, will attend in Fredericksburg, god willing, and will attend at the next location, whereever that happens to be. I truly believe the BOD was dealt a terrible hand and is honestly trying to make the best of it. What happened, happened – now to make the best of the situation as it exists, not as we wish it existed

I agree with Mr. Lundberg 100%.

Fail is not a noun!
My $.02 USD

Oh Sweet Jesus. I'm sorry, did we all forget we are playing with toy soldiers? I suppose we must have. Because some of you know better.

Really?

Are the gene pools in your families really that shallow?

Get a grip. It's a hobby folks. Real men and women on both sides of the Big Blue Anti-Tank Ditch are being shot at so you can freakin' cry about having to drive to Virginia to play with little lead men.

Grow up.

Jlundberg 22 Sep 2011 8:52 p.m. PST wrote:
I REALLY like Lancaster and think the Host is fine.

We can agree to disagree on that one

I truly believe the BOD was dealt a terrible hand and is honestly trying to make the best of it.

Even the best of intentions go hay wire sometimes.

What happened, happened – now to make the best of the situation as it exists, not as we wish it existed

I think you posted, or someone did that if it moves the next year that is fine. I am sooo against moving any convention and unless the facility is totally messed up beyond belief there should in the initial contract be a two or three year option with the rights of the organization to cancel at a reasonable time from for the next year.

Most of the contracts I have been involved in had that option, but planning needs to be for at least two years. The first is always a trail and some folks will not attend the first but when the AARs come out about the location will reconsider the location the next. Lessons learned the first time often make the second go round so much better. Such was the failure of Timonium.

VR
James Mattes

A clarification.

While I won't drive to Fredericksburg (I just hate driving long distances) I didn't mean to suggest that that means I hope it won't be successful. My comment was a reaction to the OP's silly rant.

James,

First, I think you misread Murphy's comment. He implicitly supports your perspective.

Second, you are still wrong and I have tons of research and experience (I do this for a living) to back me up as well, BUT since neither of us will convince the other, let's agree to disagree.

Finally, your grammar and spelling is atrocious! Slow down on the keyboard, dude :)!

See you in Fredericksburg.

Regards, Bill Gray

I want you boys to put on your blues and greys and punch on in the Historicon carpark. And post it on youtube so I can watch.

I was born and raised in South Carolina, but now call Pennsylvania my permanent home. So am I Blue or Grey?

Regards, Colonel Bill

"You still have TWO of the THREE Conventions…"
Murphy, let me see if I have this correct. Pa. had 3 conventions and now has 2 and Va. had 2 conventions and will now have 3. Is this correct or not?

"And for those that keep beating the dead horse and arguing FOR "the Host"…you seem to keep forgetting that "The Host" didn't want it…"
Is that correct? I never did get the complete official explanation on that.

Elmo's room is booked, take that you ers

According to Google Maps, from Michigan it's a 5 mile difference.

Seems to me that Fredricksburg would be a great place for a Historical convention..you know cause it's a historical site.

Disco,

My unofficial impression (disclaimer, tho I'm an HMGS officer, I do not know the official info on this – not my department) is that when HMGS decided to go to the BCC, they left future dates in July open, so the Host filled them. Now the Host isn't available for some years down the road because all the July weekends are filled.

That's kinda why all the howling about going to the Host is kinda moot. They don't have a July weekend open for us.

JMTSW, YMMV

Regards, Colonel Bill

Thank you Colonel Bill for the explanation. The way Murphy stated it it sounded like they didn't want us as oppossed to not having any open time frame for us. A big difference as to the way it was or should have been worded.

Disco, you are right. I should've worded it better. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

Disco; I'm not talking about "other" conventions. I'm talking about the HMGS East "big three"….

When did this turn into a north vs south issue? My friends and I have happily driven to Lancaster and Valley Forge to attend HISTORICON and COLD WARS for years. We have spent thousands of dollars over the years supporting the hobby, never mind the cost of fuel and leave days taken just to get there. As i stated in an earlier post, our journeys have began from south Florida, Georgia, Arkansas, and North Carolina. I am now in Oklahoma and will fly to HISTORICON 2012. On another note, one must assume the BoD is made up of "Southern spies"….lol…give me a break. If you truly love the hobby…have a passion for it…like seeing old friends…enjoy a good time…you'll change your diapers and go to the convenion.

Murphy, sorry. I thought you meant cons in general and not specifically the "big three" by HMGS East.

People complain about the "graying" of the hobby. When I read a lot of the posts on here I realize that a lot of people are no better than a group of school children. There is no reason to be calling each other names or trying to start the American Civil War up again.

State facts to support what you say or just state your opinion in a mature way. Saying that you are opposed or support the decision is not a reason to act childish.

The state of New Jersey recently enacted anti-bullying legislation for schools. The way a lot of people are acting about this they would be in trouble in our public schools.

I don't support the move. I feel the biggest of the three HMGS conventions should have stayed more centrally located to the "east". Since there is a HMGS South I would think they would cover at least South Carolina southward. If you eliminate that area then PA is fairly well centralized.

I have stated on here before that a move of Cold Wars south would have made more sense. Because of the possible snow in the PA area during March a move south, I would even think Hampton would make sense for that, would allow the convention to take place without having to worry about a really bad snow storm hitting (of course further south could get ice).

I think discussion is fantastic but childish discussion is going to do nothing but result in people hating the hobby. If we want to bring younger members into the hobby with games like the HAWKs ran this past year at Historicon we should at least remain civil in our disagreement and refrain from name calling and insults.

Hey folks, it's HMGS EAST…NOT HMGS NORTHEAST. HMGS SOUTH is based in FLORIDA. All of its conventions are held in FLORIDA. Thus, VIRGINIA, being in the East…makes sense.

kyotebluer than blue: I am in McAlester

I would like to attend Historicon in Fredricksburg, but will not as the distance now will make it into a longer trip for which I do not have the time and ability to do, as I will have a 1 and 1/2 year old at that time. I am in CT and as others have said now we have to negotiate NYC/NJ traffic and now DC area traffic which will make the drive a whole day affair opposed to a half day trip as it was before it moved. This won't be something that I will be able to take a day off and make a long weekend trip out of now, it will have to be a longer weeks long family vacation, which in the future if it stays in the same area i can see attending. This is as my son would hopefully enjoy visiting the numerous battlefields int he area ( I did not know that there were so many in the area. But as it is now it is unlikely that I will be attending due to these reasons. I do, from what I have seen, like the facilities and the quality of the hotels at Fredricksburg. I am surprised people have not started to complain that the hotel is not attached and that people will have to walk from the hotel to convention site. As for families I do not know the area much but I know my wife liked visiting the amish/dutch area around Lancaster. Is there any unique shopping or non-historical things to do around Fredricksburg? I will hopefully try to attend Cold Wars and Fall In but will be unable to attend those in the next year also.

The immaturity and "Rumpelstiltskin" tantrums by some members of TMP have been incredible to behold. As someone said, "We just play with toy soldiers". I suggest everyone take a look at this link about a fellow TMPer and perhaps get a better perspective on what's important…..

TMP link

Hear, hear!

Shawn.

Page Four and growing… keep it coming lads, 600 posts, that's the goal.

Hey folks, it's HMGS EAST…NOT HMGS NORTHEAST. HMGS SOUTH is based in FLORIDA. All of its conventions are held in FLORIDA. Thus, VIRGINIA, being in the East…makes sense.

By saying that HMGS South is based in Florida and their conventions are in Florida would be like saying HMGS East is in PA and that is the only place they can hold their conventions. No offense but the logic doesn't work.

If you are from New York then you might consider that Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia should all be part of South. It is all relative to your geographic region.

What really needs to be done is to draw up the boundaries for the various HMGS groups out there. What does HMGS East cover? Does it go from Maine to Florida? They are all technically "east". If you are in California then Nevada is east. If the specific geographic regions were laid out then people could see what the actual area was and what area is central to everyone.

Obviously I would not ban people from another group from attending or getting member discounts if they want to attend but at least the geographic muddle that everyone seems to be diving into would not be quite so confusing.