"The TMP at war" Topic

There is no war, at the most a minor skirmish. How many involved about 20? How many casualties about five to ten? If you doubled the numbers its still a minor skirmish. How many come to the site everyday? Hundreds? Thousands? The internet is like an echo chamber, a few can make allot of noise. I predict its going to get a bit quieter here in the next week or so.

I enjoy the historical gaming aspects, history and often great info of TMP. Sadly, I confess to also liking the social aspects of the site. My abhorrence of Facebook and it's ilk means there is no alternative. Polls, to me, do not seem a good place to engage is social discourse and criticism. Here's hoping all the emotion dies down and pleasant discourse on both social and gaming can prevail once more.

Mal me old mucker, ease to five. It's just not worth the sweat. It'll blow over and, if it does go the distance and cause an implosion, then that's just Darwinism.

Sites come and go, but this one has a massive readership. It could be that, as with gardens, the the dominant plants have to be allowed to die off or be culled to let the new growth through and continue a healthy show. If people choose to leave or act the goat, then so be it. Personally I just ignore those who like to be smartarses or just like the sound of their own voices. It could always be something as simple as not being able to communicate effectively.

This may seem like the real world to some, but it isn't really. It's a forum which some seem to treat as an emotional playground. Just don't get sucked in.

Gaz. ;O)

I have made some stupid poll recommendations in the 10 or so years on this site. Some just joking but never to attack someone especially not the editor.

Let me put it this way. "You do not come into someones home, crap on the crapet, and expect a cup of coffee instead of being offered the door"

I can be over the top at times in the Lounge. I try and keep post about this or that on TMP on the right page.

But this? TMP at War? I have been in war (several) real war and this in nothing but a tempest in a tea pot. SO WHAT! People leave and come back some just go over to Frothers, some probably have died. It happens, get over it. Now back to the Napoleonic board for some fair and ballanced discussion.

VR
James Mattes

Mal, there is no war. There are people who think they are above the rules. Deep six them and peace returns.

OP said: "This email only seeks to find a solution to the problem"

The "problem" is John the OFM. If he had taken up golf instead of wargaming then I suspect this flare-up would be happening on some golfing forum not here. John the OFM has been skating the edge of a situation like this for a LONG time regardless of what anyone things about the rights and wrongs leading up to his account being locked.

Someone above mentioned The Lounge. John the OFM and some others tended to carry over the personality cults and the mutual love-ins they had been cultivating in The Lounge onto the other boards, ones whose purpose was the discussion of wargaming, models, miniatures, history and so forth. For a small but vocal clique this was fine and dandy. As many responses to the threads of the last day or so show there are plenty of people who found this tiresome and feel it has had a detrimental effect on TMP.

TMP is Bill's business, we are his customers. Any good businessman tries to keep his customers happy. In a situation such as this his options are not enviable. One poster described the malaise of TMP today as opposed to five or even ten years ago as having become like a drunken frat house. When a loud drunk with a group of vocal hangers on is spoiling things for the rest of a bar's clientele the difficult but necessary choice is to escort those customers to the door. In essence this is what I feel Bill has done. There is no question in my mind that TMP is a less supportive, interesting, friendly place than it was when I first started coming here (7 or 8 years ago) and a large part of that is due to the netiquette of certain individuals whose boorishness overshadows the decent and good-natured interactions of the rest of this sites members.

I bear no ill will to John Carroll who I have never met and am unlikely to. But John the OFM, and the sycophants who play up to him, do damage to this site. OFM's posts are frequently snarky and all too often seem designed to direct the focus of a thread to make it all about him. They are rarely about miniatures gaming at all – as I said this is The Lounge spilling over into the site proper. In this particular mess I don't believe that Bill has been blameless but the scales of negative behaviour are tipped very firmly on the OFM's side. I suspect that Bill decided to deliberately supply John the OFM with enough rope and OFM obliged with a noose, a gibbet and the whole caboodle for himself. All the hogwash about victimisation and the First Amendment are drivel designed to dignify a personality clash on a web forum where grown men talk about toy soldiers. Get over it.

As such I think it would be a mistake to unlock the account John the OFM. This site, and the personality cult Carroll has built up on it, seem to be a very large part of his life judging by his posting frequency. Were OFM to return it would be as a martyr to his fanboys, a situation he would almost certainly play up to by returning to seeing how much he could get away with and it would just mean more of this, time after time after time and this would be a disservice to TMP and its other members.

As regards aecurtis while he can be a tool he is also extremely knowledgeable especially about Ancients and WAB (having written one of the period books). He also was the OP of the only TMP thread to make me laugh out loud, and which still makes me smile, so I hope he and Bill can bury the hatchet.

Well, that's my 2c. I guess. It might sound a bit harsh but sometimes you have to call it the way you see it.

Well for a new member like me (since Jan this year) all i can say is its like being in a playground here sometimes all over GAMES, you have to laugh really.
This is someones business and they do a great job for most but at the end of the day you can not please everyone, thats life and like life if you don't like it don't come. simple, logical.

My two cents. This is Bill's website, whose maintenance takes his time and his money. I come to TMP to learn and exchange ideas about miniatures, games, terrain and scenarios. I am glad to contribute to Bill's efforts with a supporting membership. But my friends and my social life are elsewhere, in *real* life and offline. If other people want to make TMP a center of their real lives, it is fine for me -- but it will not change the basic fact: it's Bill's website, and it runs under Bill's rules. If you don't like it, spend your time elsewhere. It's that simple.

I remember a couple of years ago, after my divorce when I was as low as I have ever been in my entire life (and not sure about wanting to risk getting any lower), I went to TMP to see some of the things that gave me comfort. Then I spilled my story and received words that made me FEEL comfort. I can never thank enough those who wrote such kind words. Without this hobby, my life wouldn't be quite as interesting. Without the people on this site my life…

But if this must continue, who's drawn up attack, wound, command, and morale stats for Bill and John's figures? What would the game be called?

Eh, who cares?

I come here for two things, in this order:

1): To discuss wargaming and associated historical subjects, and hopefully learn something interesting in the process.

2): To socialize with my fellow gamers/collectors/armchair historians.

I've had the privilege of being a Supporting Member here for almost nine years, and I've seen many members join or quit, and a few pass on. During that time, we've all had discussions about our hobby, traded tips, and pretty much had a good time. Some of us have even begun friendships here that have carried on into our real lives. I don't consider myself any more nor less important than my fellow TMPers, whether they're Supporting Members or not, but what I DON'T come here to do is to skewer people's characters, offend, nor create an acrid atmosphere. I may have failed in that, considering the four stifles I have in my profile. To those four I've offended, I am truly sorry for whatever I've said or done to deserve it.

The Miniatures Page has slowly made a name for itself over time, thanks to Bill's tireless work and word-of-mouth spread amongst the gaming community. I'm sure that it will take lots more to close it, but to see that end has never been, nor will it ever be in my plans. I've had three years of "drama" in my life, and this year has been, and continues to be, a challenge. Only a few here in confidence know about my affairs, as I've gradually become a person who prefers to not broadcast my personal business. That being said, I'll always avoid the drama and discontent that some choose to create here. And I also respectfully refuse to take sides in whatever real-world, trivial arguments some want to engage in here in what is essentially a wargamer's forum.

I like to have fun just like anyone else, but not at the expense of someone else's character, feelings, and reputation. I guess I'm just a throwback to the days of the "Golden Rule", and you know what? That's okay with me. I can live with that in this ever-changing world.

Hear, hear!

Saginaw 09 Sep 2011 4:24 p.m. PST wrote:
I come here for two things, in this order:

1): To discuss wargaming and associated historical subjects, and hopefully learn something interesting in the process.

2): To socialize with my fellow gamers/collectors/armchair historians.

Hear hear or is it here here, I wish someone would tell me the difference.

Sir you have said it much better than I ever could.

THANK YOU.
VR
James Mattes

Also, when someone clearly states they find posts and polls about himself distressing, and those things are allowed to continue -- well, deliberately causing pain to someone is not my cup of tea. To ban the man because he got frustrated was over the top.

I think as school teachers and aware of modern harassment laws, the weavers made it quite clear.

I think you always had the means to stop this and could have done so. You just chose not too under claims of free speech that seem oddly out of whack with existing laws.

When people as nice, as well respected and such long term members as the Weavers make a statement like that I think that you should climb down from your hobby horse and pay attention.

You seem to have adopted a Nelsonian blind eye throughout the entire episode even though it was blatantly obvious that it was building up to a crisis.

Your actions have been so unfathomable that it can only give weight to the claims by some that this was a personal vendetta by yourself. Certainly your continued shrugging off of all blame because of 'the rules' is becoming shrill and silly.

Yesterday I set out to try to find some middle ground and seek a way to resolve this whole issue. As was predicted by other members….and some of your paying ADVERTISERS ….you seem to have immediately jumped on my case too. You have become far too predictable Bill.

Its nonsense to say you have not lost many members. You have also lost and are about to lose Advertisers because they dont want to be seen associated with the unfairness.

Not only did people express an opinion that you would be on my case for trying to find a peaceful resolution, I have been contacted by several people stating they have just dropped off TMP without comment and will not be returning.

Your total of members lost is quite fallacious. You've lost far more than that and your attitude to trying to smooth things over has resulted in this afternoon alone, my receiving three more messages from people who are leaving because they have no confidence in your ability to handle things in a fair and even manner.

You may decide to block me for saying that. But it will merely confirm what others are saying. Another demonstration of how selective you can be by how quickly you removed POLLS you considered insulting to yourself. Once again, I did not agree with the POLLS attacking you….but they were not the message. The message was that there was one rule for attacks on you that someone thought amusing and another for attacks on others that you thought were amusing.

If you are unwell, or you have worries, then say so. We would immediately understand. The members have been very supportive when anyone has a problem. I've tried to use that as a possible excuse when trying to smooth the ruffled feathers of others over the past 48 hours.

This is not some war you are fighting with FROTHERS as in the past. It is not some war you are pursuing with Frank Hammond or on other sites as in the past. Over the years you could just walk away from those when things got embarrassing.

This is TMP. Your own site. You cant take your bat and ball and go home here.

For goodness sake stop being such a total !

James, it is "Hear Hear" as in "Listen to this". I suppose it could be "Hear here" meaning you can listen to it at this location. Or "Here Hear" if you have named your pet Hear.

It's "hear hear", as in "hear him, hear him", as in "that's it in a nutshell, I wish I'd thought of that, what've you got to say now?"

Let's add "play some wargames" to the list, Ditto…

Gee, Mal, how many places did you post your screed?

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but if you disagree with me, Mal, why can't you reason with me? Instead, you resort to insults, name-calling, accusations of lying – and I'm the one you're calling "shrill and silly"?

I think you always had the means to stop this and could have done so.

I made a policy decision which John the OFM disagreed with. I suppose I could have said, "Gee, the OFM is getting really upset about this, I'd better cave in and change the policy." But you know, Mal, I don't think that's the way policy should be made. And when you worked in law enforcement, I'm willing to bet that's not how you worked, either.

You just chose not too under claims of free speech that seem oddly out of whack with existing laws.

I'm just not aware of any laws that impact TMP's free speech forum policies. If you know of any, please supply particulars.

When people as nice, as well respected and such long term members as the Weavers make a statement like that I think that you should climb down from your hobby horse and pay attention.

I read the statement from the Weavers, and I made my comments on that topic. While I would agree that the Weavers are nice people, I strongly disagree that decisions should be made based on how nice the people are who agree or disagree with you. For example, I know that you feel strongly about gun control laws. Would you change your position if you discovered that some of the people who disagreed with you were really, really nice people?

You seem to have adopted a Nelsonian blind eye throughout the entire episode even though it was blatantly obvious that it was building up to a crisis.

On the contrary, John seemed to handle the "OFM" poll quite well. There was reason to believe that John was learning to live with the policy.

Your actions have been so unfathomable that it can only give weight to the claims by some that this was a personal vendetta by yourself.

I don't think they've been unfathomable, and I've explained them as well as I can. If people want to ascribe motives to me without evidence, I can't stop them.

Certainly your continued shrugging off of all blame because of 'the rules' is becoming shrill and silly.

I'm the sort of person who believes in actions and consequences. John knew what the rules were. He chose to break them, and suffered the consequences. The only one to blame for John's actions is John. In a different way, I'm sure you must have run into similar cases in your law enforcement career. When someone broke the law, was it your fault they suffered the consequences?

Yesterday I set out to try to find some middle ground and seek a way to resolve this whole issue. As was predicted by other members….and some of your paying ADVERTISERS ….you seem to have immediately jumped on my case too. You have become far too predictable Bill.

First of all, you mention "paying ADVERTISERS" as though you're trying to threaten me. Is this how you normally resolve disputes, Mal? Regardless, let the advertisers speak for themselves – as a former law enforcement officer, you know the value of second-hand reports.

Second, am I predictable? In this case, sure – my position on the policy is well known.

Third… how in the world did I "jump on your case"? If I respond to your post, is that somehow not allowed?

Its nonsense to say you have not lost many members. You have also lost and are about to lose Advertisers because they dont want to be seen associated with the unfairness.

Mal, I simply told you the truth. This website has many, many members. A handful have asked me to do something about their memberships, while there has been a ground swell of new memberships coming in. Nobody has asked for a refund of their membership fees. Now, certainly there are some who aren't planning to renew their memberships. That's why I've said that we'll have to see where the membership levels are a year from now, to get an idea of the ultimate result of this. (And even then, the overall picture will no doubt be influenced by such things as the global economy.) As for advertisers, please don't accuse me of lying. Now it's possible that I might have missed an email or a PM somewhere, but as far as I know right now, only one advertiser has left TMP this week – and since he gave no reason for his departure, I would presume it was just the normal course of business. Maybe others are "planning" to, but if so, they haven't notified me.

And you know what, Mal? I run a business here, and if people don't like what I'm accomplishing on the internet, they are certainly free to take their business elsewhere. That's just capitalism, and I don't take it personally. If they put me out of business, then I can always find other things to do. That's life.

Another demonstration of how selective you can be by how quickly you removed POLLS you considered insulting to yourself. Once again, I did not agree with the POLLS attacking you….but they were not the message. The message was that there was one rule for attacks on you that someone thought amusing and another for attacks on others that you thought were amusing.

Mal, you really can't see the difference between a poll asking where someone might travel to, versus a poll mocking someone's religion or attacking their sexuality? The policy is quite simple: personal attacks aren't allowed on TMP, whether by poll or in the forums. Not even on me. But if something doesn't rise to the level of a personal attack, then why should I censor it? Because someone "might" take offense? Have we all become such mamby-pambys that you want to turn me into the sensitivity cop for TMP?

If you are unwell, or you have worries, then say so. We would immediately understand. The members have been very supportive when anyone has a problem. I've tried to use that as a possible excuse when trying to smooth the ruffled feathers of others over the past 48 hours.

Mal, that's just dumb. So if I disagree with you – for instance, on your well-known position regarding gun-control laws – can I suggest that you must have health problems to believe as you do?

For goodness sake stop being such a total !

Just because we disagree, Mal, is no reason to resort to name-calling. You should know better.