"The TMP at war" Topic

THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN SENT TO RECENTLY LEFT MEMBERS AS WELL.

It seems that the TMP has broken into open warfare and now more are locked out. Lots are leaving voluntarily and saying so publicly. Some are prominent and long term people that are much respected members. As has been said on line, many others will simply leave and not say anything. This is indeed sad.

I admit that I've had my own moments and have had to step away for a break at times. Particularly after my illness and meltdown after Easter this year. I don't offer that as an excuse, merely as an explanation and example.

Almost every day someone displays anger. As we all get older I think these things are inevitable and we probably need to understand that. Sometimes we agree with the editor sometimes we do not. Sometimes we may think he was biased, on other occasions we may think he was not. We may think he is being unfair and other times he is being too fair. Its all a matter of perception based on our own personal make up and our attitude to the subject.

Its true that today TMP has had a record number of hits. No doubt CNN has the same thing happen when a war story breaks. That will not last. It never does.

But in the present situation I think there is a need to find a solution. TMP may have started out as a small venture by Bill Armintrout, but over the years it has grown and grown to become the premier site for wargaming news and for wargamers to meet and discuss. There have been problems with the discussion, that I feel are caused by the electronic media being emotionless in all ways except the written word. I know that some subjects I have raised with tongue in cheek, have turned into something I never intended because the intent has been misread. Those who know me personally understand that I am always having fun 'taking a dig' at various friends. But in personal contact they know that its all joking around and rather than take offence just have a dig back at me. I've been bewildered at times, to put up a subject seeking opinions, only to find others taking offense to the question or the subject, rather than expressing an opinion in reasoned discussion.

I rather feel that this is all too true of the posts of many people. The personal touch of conversation is lost and the words taken far too literally. Tongue in cheek comments in response are taken as offensive because the audible tone of conversation does not carry through with the written words.

But over all I am writing to you because I would like to seek your opinion as to if there is some way we can either repair TMP and get things back on an even keel. As a central means of communication for wargamers, TMP has been unbeatable for some years.

As a commercial venture it is understandable that Bill must have control. Where this crosses from commercial to editorial is blurred and for some people difficult to fathom.

But perhaps there is room to negotiate on a small editorial group to overlook the various boards. That would relieve Bill of some of these duties to enable him to concentrate on NEWS….something that everyone looks for, and the lack of which has been the cause of many complaints recently…..and on other issues to do with the site.

There are, I feel, rather too many boards, especially sub-boards, which contributes to some of the problems. One can hear of a member yet rarely encounter that person. Be told of obnoxious posts but not see them oneself. While not seeking to be personally aware of obnoxious posts, my point is that 'the house' of TMP has become a rambling mansion that is starting to fall down. A huge house where members can wander about and not bump into each other for long periods. Then suddenly you do bump into someone, read a post, and being unfamiliar with that person, take things quite out of context.

There has been considerable. Sometimes heated discussion on the way Bill interprets the rules he himself laid down. Many believe his interpretations are inconsistent. I'm of the same opinion. But in fairness to err is human. Even paid judges can be inconsistent.

If some 'blocks' of boards were edited by some independent volunteers it would still not entirely go away, but it would prevent some of the current complaints that are made worse by the far too many rooms problem. Its obvious some people have an issue with a decision made on a board or subject we've not read personally, and they carry that through to other boards we are aware of, with a venom that cant be quite understood without the past history.

This email only seeks to find a solution to the problem. I would hate to see the 'characters' and 'personalities' of the TMP go out in an air of bitterness and dispute. Therefore I seek ideas from all or any on how it can be all made more balanced and the present crisis resolved.

Regards

Mal Wright.

mgwright@bigpond.net.au

This is going to be my only post about this.

Basically, I have been, and will continue to use TMP as I always have. A gaming site. I've had my clashes here and there over the years, but I come here to read gaming news and talk about minis and gaming as both an advertiser and hobbyist.

The rest of it is simply drama which I basically ignore (turning off a lot of boards and features has helped).

If people want SO badly for TMP to be about minis and gaming again, then they need to put their money where their mouth is and USE it for that. It's that freaking simple and it goes for all parties who stir up and perpetuate the drama.

If not, and the drama triangle continues, then what happens to TMP will simply happen and it will be well deserved.

Not sure what else there is to say about it.

To quote Kyote: *shrug.

I agree that there is at times a toxic atmosphere here which has pushed people away.

Other forums have moderators to help put out the flames – catch sock puppets – and moderate the discussion when needed. I would like to think that as adults we can be civil and have reasonable arguments and debates but with the anonymity of the internet having moderators is necessary.

Self moderation by the majority is not working and a few having been poisoning the waters for quite a while. Something definitely needs to be done to clear up the atmosphere to make this place more civil and as most of us are men to behave as gentleman.

They'll come back… they always do.

Good one Keith.

It seems that the TMP has broken into open warfare and now more are locked out. Lots are leaving voluntarily and saying so publicly.

Please, some perspective. TMP has thousands of members. Five people (so far) have asked for their Supporting Memberships to be retired. On the other hand, there has been a wave of new Supporting Members today, outweighing the losses considerably at this point.

I think it is way over the top to claim that TMP has entered a civil war stage…

I agree with Keith, and with Bill. lets get back to talk about gaming.

The sense of entitlement in this day and age amazes me.
The polls don't bother me because I don't bother to read them.

I think it is way over the top to claim that TMP has entered a civil war stage…

It may not seem that way on the boards today, since you deleted a lot of yesterdays posts and removed subjects you did not agree with before too many people could see them, and on which you subsequently blocked the posters.

But censorship, deleting posts and Polls cant hide the truth. Some very respected people have left, some very respected people have been blocked.

I guess for trying to find an amicable solution I will be next to be blocked out. But that wont solve the problem.

I personally did not agree with the bunch of Polls about you put up last night. I could understand that the Pollster was trying to illustrate a point that if it was OK to put up Polls a member considered offensive, then it was fair game to put them up about you too. As I say, I did not agree with them and dont think it served any useful purpose. But you did rather play straight into the hands of the poster who was banking on you doing just that. His actions and your reactions just made it worse.

On the other hand, there has been a wave of new Supporting Members today, outweighing the losses considerably at this point.

Are we being told here, that the loss of such respected long term members as Weaver and Neotacha over recent events, along with other long term members is immaterial as long as they are replaced by new comers?

If so, that is a truly sad state of affairs.

I started this thread with the hope of perhaps some half way point of reconciliation being achievable, but your response is very disappointing.

I have not attacked you Bill. I have merely tried to put forward some solutions and ask others to do the same. But from the above it would seem I can only expect to also be blocked out for being audacious enough to try to help.

They'll come back… they always do.

This is the other thing you can count on besides death and taxes.

Please, some perspective. TMP has thousands of members. Five people (so far) have asked for their Supporting Memberships to be retired. On the other hand, there has been a wave of new Supporting Members today, outweighing the losses considerably at this point.

That ought to deflate some egos.

So Bill makes more money by locking out offending members accounts?

Keep looking Bill…there is more money to be made.

What war? I haven't heard of any war?

Maybe 'cause I'm here to talk minis, and nothin' else.

Dan

Here's a novel idea.

How about discussing miniatures, rules, and wargaming?

I can do without all the drama…..

What war? I haven't heard of any war?

Much was removed not long after it went up. Peoples accounts locked etc. Some chose to leave and withdrew supporting membership. Some just left.

How about discussing miniatures, rules, and wargaming?

This board is for general discussions. There are individual boards for just about every aspect of actual wargames discussion.

The 'WAR' that started last night (my time) basically relates to one member, The OFM, complaining that he has been consistently harassed and bullied by certain individuals and the editor putting up POLL's about him. Others believed he had the right to ask for it to be stopped and that it had already exceeded what would be a breach of work place laws of the present day.

The Editor declared it was an exercise in free speech.

A member then submitted several Polls about the Editor and declared them to be of similar free speech.

These were removed and that person's account locked.

And no….I didnt agree with the POLL's about the Editor even if I did understand the point the poster was making.

Reality check time. This is a case of handbags at dawn on a niche hobby website.

Anyone who is unhappy with the discussion here will, quite literally, find many more sites where wargaming can be discussed (heck, they could even start their own site). The problem here at TMP was that some folks with a tad too much time on their hands projected too much of their personality and ego into the discussions.

TMP is what you make of it. I tend to try and separate the wheat from the chaff in terms of useful gaming specific info and "everything else." 10 years ago I would have said the ratio was 80/20 in favour of the wheat. Now, my guess is that is reversed in favour of the chaff. However, those few bushels of wheat are worth it because there is some darn good info on uniforms, TO&E, equipment, etc. available here.

In terms of this current tempest in a teapot (perhaps thimble would be more appropriate), this too shall pass.

Storm in a teacup. I see threads coming up that look like people playing silly s but I just ignore those and read those that look like they are of interest to me. i've not noticed a "war" as such, if there is one then from my perspective its a minor skirmish off in the weeds.

I do agree though that some of the stuff I've seen that appars to atrget the OFM does look a bit childish. Whether its justified by his own actions I don't know. But it doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of TMP.

When they came for the OFM, I said nothing….

I think a gross calumny has been perpetrated on our esteemed editor. He would never delete or censor posts, particularly those with which he disagrees. He is in favour of free speech. He said so himself, only yesterday.

paid for with his own money

Not quite true – supporting members and advertisers pay. So is it now our choice?

I support TMP 100%. I have made a lot of great contacts here over the last 10 years. I have discovered a lot of new rules, figures and manufacturers. Thanks Bill for putting this all together.

odiaboloiro
I think a gross calumny has been perpetrated on our esteemed editor. He would never delete or censor posts, particularly those with which he disagrees. He is in favour of free speech. He said so himself, only yesterday.

Thank you so much for that one, caused my first smile of the day!

Dear Mal,

I have a huge respect for you, and will always remember your kindness to me, and to my wife, when I first pitched up on Australia's shore and thought it would be a good idea to 'bimble across to SA from NSW for a convention'. You are something of a legend to Aussie wargamers, and rightly so.

However, in the manner of an XO to his skipper in front of the assembled wardroom, may I cough meaningfully into my sleeve….

Are you quite sure things are as bad with TMP as you think they are? I know you have the very best of intentions, but is it possible that, as a gentleman of the old school, you are taking some of the drama queens' declaration of offense a little too seriously?

By all means tell me to 'get stuffed' if I have crossed the line…

With all due respect,

Sparks

I use our club website for my general comments on wargaming and TMP for product and player support.

The lounge doesn't float my boat but for some it will. I've found that if you find yourself verbally attacked over a game then I think to myself "you sad person" and just walk away.

The DKBD club motto is "putting the fun back" because that is what gaming is all about, having a hobby where you can meet other gamers, "debate" history and enjoy producing games.

If it's not enjoyable I don't go there.

As for supporting TMP, well it's supporting the hobby I love and as long as it does I'll be here doing my bit in the rank and files. After all TMP and the hobby is what "we" make it and we should thank Bill for his efforts.

This is beginning to sound like a presidential speech… Now I'm off to Newbury for Colours…

It may not seem that way on the boards today, since you deleted a lot of yesterdays posts and removed subjects you did not agree with before too many people could see them, and on which you subsequently blocked the posters.

The only topics deleted yesterday were the "polls" mocking my religion, questioning my sexuality, and making other personal attacks. Why should I allow people to make personal attacks on me? That would just be dumb.

Perhaps I should have left them up, and they illustrated perfectly the lack of personal attacks made in any of the TMP polls. I suppose the author's intention was to attack me in the same way he imagines others have been attacked, but when has anyone proposed a poll belittling someone's religion or asking if anyone has "come out of the closet"?

And yes, I Locked that person's account. He was acting like a total imbecile, and that's not the kind of person I want on TMP.

He was acting like a total imbecile, and that's not the kind of person I want on TMP.

Wha…? that's not in the FAQ.

I'll get my coat.

Pat

I know this site is about "wargaming" only, but for other shere, especially on the lounge, Bill has provided us with a place to have a community, where we as wargamers could be social together, to provide support, to make real friendships.

For those of you who don't belong to *that* subset of TMP, may not understand why we care for each other as a community. You can just talk about wargaming, But we talked about our lives our problems, things that made us laugh, things that made us angry and things that made us cry. The support I have seen given on here to others, shows we had a community, and that is valuable to us. Many of of us are upset at that being interfered with.

Sparks, sorry but "get stuffed". As a non-supporting member, you haven't seen that side of the TMP community. You haven't seen the friendship and support structure we have. I am upset, and others are also upset, and rightly so. Yes this IS a commercial site, but many have used it for more than that. If Yahoo all of a sudden decided to do away with its mailings list, or began harassing members, people would be angry, and rightly so. and they don't even charge us.

I have paid my supporting membership, not to support Bill, but to support TMP, as a place where I can meet with online friends who happen to be wargamers.

Not sure whether I am going or staying, I am still confused about all of this. I can talk wargames at lots of different sites, not only at TMP. I have stayed at TMP because of friends and people I respect, so if they aren't here…

So Bill makes more money by locking out offending members accounts?

Keep looking Bill…there is more money to be made.

You seem to be confused. Locking someone's account is not the same as someone resigning their Supporting Membership.

If someone resigns their Supporting Membership, they continue as a Basic Member. They can ask for a refund of their remaining Supporting Membership. (So far, all have told me to keep the money.)

A Locked account chiefly means that the person can't post on the TMP forums. It can be done as an administrative action (if I feel someone is behaving inappropriately), or by request (usually someone trying to "make a statement" by asking for their account to be Locked).

I wasn't aware that a war was going on either. I've seen the odd flame war in one off posts and this seemed to cut down quite a bit a few years ago when the current events boards were removed.

Pretty much any much internet forum I've every gone to has this sort of issue. I don't think it is out of hand here and we might be making more of this issue than is really there.

Wha…? that's not in the FAQ.

Yes, it is.

I like this site. I ignore the silly stuff. I overlook the occasional dummy spit. Generally, people are on topic and respectful. Have a great day, all.

Wow, do people get excited easily here.

I wasn't aware of a war either. I only noticed when I did my usual trick and accidentally clicked on TMP Talk instead of Terrain and Scenics. How about moving the talk and poll boards to 'The Lounge', far away from the boards about wargaming?

Mal – I agree with your assessment of the situation at hand and don't feel you've overstated at all.

Ken

Are you quite sure things are as bad with TMP as you think they are?

I am a veteran member in more ways than one. I've had to start getting used to people dropping the 'veteran' and inserting 'elderly'.

I wasn't aware that a war was going on either.

Much takes place in the Lounge area that is not seen by ordinary members. But long term members are, as it has been said, quite often now friends outside TMP as well.

but is it possible that, as a gentleman of the old school, you are taking some of the drama queens' declaration of offense a little too seriously?

I'm of the old school, but I am not drama queening anything. I have never seen things so bad. I've never seen such animosity. I would like to find a way to stop it.

Almost every day someone displays anger. As we all get older I think these things are inevitable and we probably need to understand that

I find myself getting more mellow. Maybe I just haven't transitioned into curmudgeon yet

Basically, I have been, and will continue to use TMP as I always have

Me too, life is too short to spend immersed in drama, unless it's Shakespeare.

I would like to find a way to stop it.

I don't think you will. Watching the blow ups from the past couple of years shows me Bill has a way of doing things and some people don't like it. There's been nitpicking for a while and it finally went critical. I doubt the two parties will ever agree and if they come back it's just a matter of time before the next round.

I turned off the Polls suggestion board so a lot of the crap disappeared. I have been here since the late 90's. I enjoy the gaming related discussions. The drama is avoidable. I agree that the personal polls should have been whacked. However, John did escalate things with the you are dead to me post. There are some folks here who seem to get too wrapped up in all the drama. Calling things a Civil War is pretty silly. A handful of folks are involved. Bill is like some supervisors I have had. Pretty good most of the time. Sometimes he makes questionable decisions I am not pleased with. However, he is still the boss and I can live with it or pack up and leave. While I'm sad that some of these folks leave or get banned it won't cause me to pack up my bags.

There are some of consistently try and stir the pot with few other contributions. Some are still here. I try and stay away from the areas of TMP where they thrive. It's like we tell our teenage kids. Sometimes you need to know when to quit talking and walk away before you find yourself in big trouble. That advice would work wonders for a few folks around here.

Thanks,

John

Its amazing how much civility goes out the window when a person doesn't have to worry about getting hiss ass whooped for silly/offensive statement's that his mouth (or keyboard) is making. Too bad TMP doesn't have a schoolyard….

I did not renew my supporting membership because the "Lounge" was generally full of non-wargaming posts. I think it petty that some can't keep it in the "Lounge" and feel it their duty to infect the rest of the site. I don't know who's missing and really couldn't care less. I come for the wargaming information and discussion, I leave the drama for the soaps. Reminds me of massive arguements done during some Empire games back in the late 70's as the rules were nitpicked by some.
I agree with John Leahy and FoxtrotPapaRomeo.

Ok, really not wanting to comment on the latest train wreck, but it is draws the eye like a gawker slow down on the highway…..

My only other comment on this was when it was suggested that people should be able to conduct polls on who can be kicked off the site.. (now that was a really silly idea and a limiting business model for Bill).

I am still finding TMP to be a very useful site, cool ideas and answers to gaming questions can be found quickly. I think most of us would have to agree on this. If you do not then you are spending too much time on the wrong (and somewhat useless boards).

The Poll boards I personally find to be useless (unless Bill gets some market data revenue from game sponsors – ala facebook model?), so I am not sure why they are even here (other than to replace the CA boards).

Regarding Talk about TMP, Sure I can see why Bill might have a suggestion box, but guess what it is a "suggestion box".. No business that I know hangs out a "demand box"…

So some wisdom from my Father borrowed and passed to me many years ago..

To the people that have been locked out for poor behavior or the ones that have left from righteous indignation (some of them not for the first time I believe), I offer the bucket test:

1. Take a bucket of water
2. Put your hand in it.
3. Take your hand out.
4. Stare at the hole your absent hand left behind.

For the rest of us regarding the seemingly more senseless arguments on these boards remember: The problem with rolling around in the mud with a pig? The pig likes it…

Bill, personally I like the site still, and like I would with any other product I find useful, I will continue to use it as long as it remains so.

"Drama Queens". That says it all.

Kevin

oh and Major Mike… I have to agree the lounge is not a significant feature..

The Market place and the PM feature, plus supporting a "product" I use are the only real reasons I find to be a supporting member.

I prefer to ignore the non hobby related stuff. So while I've commented here I'm not sure what this is all about and want to keep it that way.

Are we being told here, that the loss of such respected long term members as Weaver and Neotacha over recent events, along with other long term members is immaterial as long as they are replaced by new comers?

The Weavers are good people… but I fail to believe that other good people don't post here either. Right now there are whole new classes of posters who are making friendships and dealing with the seniors drama and will someday lament your, mine, and the rest of us old timers leaving – or crow good riddance depending. But there are other Dropzonetoes, OFMs, and Mal Wrights already in place waiting to have the spotlight with a history long enough to give weight to their words.

Old soldiers don't die… and all that.

It's very simple.

Prohibit all posts about current events, what movies you like, what your favorite food is and, most importantly about the way the site is run or the practices and policies of the Editor. All posts should be about wargaming, history, modeling or topics related thereto. There are a multitude of other places to discuss popular culture, etc.

Any complaints about unfair treatment, editorial policies, etc should be made directly to the Editor, leaving the rest out of it.

That policy would eliminate 95 percent of the nonsense of John the OFM and his gang of "free speech" advocates.

I like TMP for the wealth of wargame information it provides. I guess I find people watching in the form of reading posts such as this to also be somewhat fun. Unless Bill kicks me out for my consistent belief that this whole OFM thing was not handled properly I will continue to read TMP. Sorry to see some of the fellows go.

Al

All this rancor over toy soldiers! Imagine if there were serious issues being discussed!!!!

Advice: step away from the keyboard and rake a deep breath. Good outside. Get some fresh air. Go watch a movie. It'll do you some good.

It's a wargaming site. That's why I belong and what I focus on. We don't have problems until we get into non-wargaming issues, ego issues, or people merely misreading the intent of a post.

(anyone with email experience knows that a person can write an email in one "tone of voice" and someone can read it in another -- giving someone the benefit of the doubt as to their intent works best)

Are we sure it's not just a bunch of people who love to think they are part of something.

An overblown sense of their own importance.